I've just been having a browse on ebay. Yes, insomniac!  As usual wandered over to dog stuff, and started looking for collars.  After all I've only got dozens already!

But I have just seen a photo of the most cruel collar I've ever seen in my life.  It had what looked liked barbs on the inside, it was sadistic.  Is it legal to advertise these things?

That's what's known as a pinch collar or prong collar. Luckily you don't see them often for sale here -in the US you get them in pretty much every pet shop. But no, sadly they are not illegal.

> It had what looked liked barbs on the inside, it was sadistic.

If it is a pinch collar they are blunt prongs not barbs, I've seen gun dogs wearing collars with sharp spikes on the inside & a lot of gundog equipment suppliers sell them

I have seen them before and my immeadiate thought to these pronged collars was that they look barbaric.However when following a thread on another forum about these which involved dog trainers,working dog owners from both here and the States was that they are safe and cause less trauma than a poorly used choke chain when training.
However I will stick to a harness or rolled leather collar.

>working dog owners from both here and the States was that they are safe and cause less trauma than a poorly used choke chain when training.

You hear exactly the same thing from those who advocate the use of shock collars too. To be honest, I wouldn't expect them to say "Yes, they're unkind and hurt the dog, but what the heck?" ;-)

> You hear exactly the same thing from those who advocate the use of shock collars too.

I was just about to say the same :-)

Although they aen't widely used here I did see a dobermann wearing one walking around crufts this year, and one on a staffie out walking the other day, so i think they are gaining in popularity. Probably because they are so often used on the dog whisperer (I can't stand that programme, and am fed up with people telling me how wonderful it is!)

that they are safe and cause less trauma than a poorly used choke chain when training.

I have heard that as well.  Apparently, the pressure exerted on a prong collar is less to get the same correction as a choke chain would.  I was also told that it is safer because it is a steady pressure, instead of a quick snap like a choke chain.  I dont use prongs, but I know people that do. 

I hate prong collars and shock collars . Just because its affective dose not mean its right. And both theses collars should only be used in a training session , yet people are using them as everyday wear. I think you should have to be a professional trainer and have a licence  to use one. And only used as a last resort .

Well at risk of alienating everyone here, I do use one on Oban.  I followed advice to have the correct style, link size, fitting, and training in how to use it done by a CAPPDT trainer I was training with.  My first uses were in a training class.  It is a martingale so there is not steady pressure.  Pressure is only exerted when the dog pulls and then it is limited by the martingale. 

I got it when he was 8 months old (Lab) and too strong for me to control when we encountered an off-leash dog, or one loose in its own fenced yard, when on training walks around our village.  It was not possible for me to control a wildly enthusiatic pup who wanted to meet that other dog and try to train him in ignoring such distractions at the same time.  Before the prong he was happily strangling himself to the point of gagging on his flat collar and worse on the chain slip collar. 

Right from the start we alternated using it with clipping on to his flat collar.  The goal was always to use it as a training aid with the aim of advancing to not using it.  We did get his CGN on a flat martingale.  At only 17 months old I still need the prong for walking where I might meet other dogs.  Most of the time he is on a loose leash and the prong is not in effect at all.  I can't predict when I will meet another dog though.

Maybe I fell for a load of scam but I was shown how a head halter type of control, fastened under the dog's head, can break its neck during a moment of inattention.   In the same moment of inattention a slip can damage the esophagus and the flat collar can come right off.  The back of the head attaching head halter might have worked for me but the prong was thought to be easier to switch back and forth to flat collar with.  Harness was not investigated.

I agree, improperly used it can be cruel.  It does certainly look cruel.  I was told they were instruments of torture when taking my first pup to her first training class 16 years ago.  Though that class did allow one dog aggressive dog with an experienced handler into the class and they used a prong.  I was very reluctant to use one.  But I'm happy with it now.

Umm yes I've also been advised that a lot of gundog people use them and also shock collars.  Trainers have said that they can tell which ones are used with them due to the jumpiness especialy when shock collars go off etc.  I'm sorry I'm of the frame of mind that if you can't train without such items then are you such a good handler?

> It was not possible for me to control a wildly enthusiatic pup who wanted to meet that other dog and try to train him in ignoring such distractions at the same time.

I found the same, so I started to use a harness to take the brunt of any pulling/lunging (for fear of damaging my 'little' babys' neck with a collar), while I learned to work on my timing. It's so easy to forget how crucial timing is, it's very hard to get the attention of a young dog in an excited state, getting used to your dogs rections/limits and timing distractions to use before the dog gets excited works fantastically. It's also too easy to forget that it's easier to teach the dog things in stages, for example, rather than expecting a dog to completely ignore something exciting straight away, it's easier to teach a calmer reaction to the stimulus and gradually make that reaction a calmer one and the dog will then be able to ignore the stimulus much easier.

>At only 17 months old I still need the prong for walking where I might meet other dogs.

At 20 months old I need the occasional 'sit' command if it looks like he may get OTT, I'm still re-inforcing these commands under major distraction with chunks of cheese :)

I am new to using 99% reward based training (I resort to the occasional 'NO'), but I am amazed by it. There's been a few moments that have given me new grey-hairs with Buster, but mostly training him has been freindly & fun for both him & me.

I haven't used a prong collar and don't know much about their use by trainers, but it seems to me to be a 'quick-fix' alternative to patient, reward-based training.

Totally with you on the patient, reward based training!

I have a male Rottie who is nearly 2 1/2 (amongst a few other dogs at home!) I am not huge about 5ft 7 and under 9 stone but I don't need a prong collar to control my dog.  Training, training and more training in a kind way means if my boy gets abit over excited (which he does) then he is told to sit and wait - which again he does.

If anything I use a halti which gives me complete control.  If I had to resort to a prong collar - although I never would, I think i'd seriously sit down and think about my handling skills!

By the way mastifflover it sounds as though you are doing a great job with your boy.

To have more control we use a halti , no they dont like that either but we have used a halti on 2 of ours and now they are a lot better than a year or so ago. I wouldnt use a shock collar or anything like that :(

Thank you Jetstone, for giving the other viewpoint.  Also for explaining correct use of one.  Being about the only person on here that has never seen the Milan guy, I didn't even know about them, let alone know that they're legal.  But then, I'm old, and remember Barabara Woodhouse!!!  :-)

The only large breeds I've ever owned have all been Collies, and training them has always been straightforward because all they want to do is please!  Which is just as well really!  As I wouldn't be confident that I could ever use one safely.                           

I saw a pinch collar on a doberman bitch who was brought to eye testing last October. The bitch was a sweet girl who wanted to approach the other dogs and owners but could not. Every time she moved forwards the prongs dug in to her neck, she whimpered and sat back down. This dog was not even one year old. I thought it was awful to see and I do think it is a tool for lazy trainers!

I'm a Dobermann owner and they're a sensitive breed who just need a little training and a lot of loving. Down with pinch collars.aldousjohn@hotmail.com

> but it seems to me to be a 'quick-fix' alternative to patient, reward-based training.

Here! here! :)

I can't help thinking that if owners had to wear shock collars and prong collars first there would be fewer in use ;) 

> I can't help thinking that if owners had to wear shock collars and prong collars first there would be fewer in use ;-)

Glad somebody said it.  I had never seen one before, and just thought that (stupid me), it would be something that was totally illegal, but then, I've never used choke chains either.

Well said Dill !!

> Every time she moved forwards the prongs dug in to her neck, she whimpered and sat back down.

I think that is so sad.  Poor dog, and stupid, stupid owner.

ive never used a choke chain on any of my dogs and think they should be banned and so shouldd these barbed collars.i did use a halti when training our boxer but now shes calmed down a bit and waking brilliant on and of the lead i just us a normal collar.the amount of dogs ive seem being pulled in all directions by people who have no idea how tto use a choke chain make my blood boil.

I first saw a prong collar in Florida, about 10 years ago. I was browsing through all the collars in a pet shop and was horrified by the prong ones. I put one on my wrist and jerked my wrist against it and was left with tiny red marks and it was sore! Since the dog whisperer has became so popular so have pinch and prong collars unfortunately, and they now sell them in my local pet shop. I can't help thinking they are just used by people who don't want to put the time or effort into training their dogs properly, and of course these are the very same dogs that will be hurt by the collars.

The prong collars work "better" than choke collars because they are broader and if they are fitted correctly you are pretty much guaranteed to put pressure exactly where it hurts the dog - on the soft, upper part of their necks versus on the muscular, lower part of their necks.

So, you are controlling a dog with a prong collar soley because the dog does not want to injure itself by pulling.  I don't call that training.

I have small dogs, but one is all muscle and can literally pull my back out.   I use a harness designed to limit pulling when I walk him on an extendable lead.  He can still pull a bit, but not to the extent that he pulls my muscles, or his. 

>The prong collars work "better" than choke collars because they are broader and if they are fitted correctly you are >pretty much guaranteed to put pressure exactly where it hurts the dog - on the soft, upper part of their necks >versus on the muscular, lower part of their necks.

There's another reason they work better than 'Choke' collars - TRAINING! ( Actually they should be given their proper name of CHECK CHAIN  - then there might be fewer dogs left choking and pulling ;) ) 

A CHECK CHAIN is only effective if used in the correct manner with appropriate training - used and sized correctly it shouldn't hurt the dog but just startle it into paying attention instead of pulling/lunging.  Sadly, most people who use them fail to understand this and think it will magically teach the dog to walk nicely without any training - or worse, that the dog will learn not to choke itself - which never seems to happen :( :(

The prong collar will work because no training is required, the design automatically teaches the dog that pain will follow any pulling.  I very much doubt tho that the dog will learn anything except wearing the collar hurts :( 

>I very much doubt tho that the dog will learn anything except wearing the collar hurts

That's true - it doesn't actually teach them anything, because if you put them onto an ordinary collar they start to pull again. The prong collar is only a means of controlling the dog, not a training aid of any sort.

Dill,

You're right, choke or check collars don't work correctly for most people because they are not used correctly.  I was taught how to use them - and after learning decided I did not want to choke my dog to teach it to heel!  They do choke if used correctly - under the chin at the top of the neck where there is little muscle so that a quick "check" is tantamount to a quick taste of strangulation.   :-( 

I shudder when remembering the training, which was by a trainer who trained GSDs for the prison service in the U.S.   He told me if the dog does not respond to a quick check or is in a frenzy over something to literally hang the dog up by the choke chain until it "calms down."  Yeh, right.  Ghastly.

A check chain should train by noise not strangulation. I don't use one now but years ago used to and was taught to give a quick jerk to make the collar "Chink" and it is the noise that corrects the dog. So many peole have no idea how to use one correctly. And the amount who put it on the wrong way round..well it's every other person, and as for having it high up on the neck that is a no no and can cause all sorts of damage to the neck.
I have to say (Tin hat on) I hate to see so many show dogs with the very thin link chains (Or thin leather slip leads) up under the chins and being walked round the ring on what I would class as a tight lead. Some have thier front feet barely touching the ground!
Aileen

Merlot - Hear Hear!  I only use half-checks made of webbing and chain, these days [adjusted so they can only tighten to a normal flat collar fit] but still use the 'clink' of the chain as it tightens to warn them they're approaching the end of the line so to speak.
I used full metal check chains years ago with the same intent but found as my sons started taking the dogs out they needed half-checks as the didn't really understand the damage that could be caused - even inadvertantly.
I also agree with the criticism of 'strung up' show dogs on thin collars but, I think again this depends on the ability of the handler - some can use them really well after lots of TRAINING so not damaging the dogs.
Let's face it, even if you use a flat collar, without training a dog can get pretty damagedwalking  on a lead by pulling on any sort of collar.

> A check chain should train by noise not strangulation. I don't use one now but years ago used to and was taught to give a quick jerk to make the collar "Chink" and it is the noise that corrects the dog.

Phew! thank goodness you wrote that!  after reading

>They do choke if used correctly - under the chin at the top of the neck where there is little muscle so that a quick "check" is tantamount to a quick taste of strangulation

I almost blew a gasket!

I have never heard such rubbish! as Merlot has written the CHECK CHAIN works because of the NOISE!  and if used correctly with training can be retired after just a couple of days/weeks.   I have actually used one on my own neck to make sure that it's correct use will not hurt.  The correct place for the chain to rest is like a necklace - at the top of the shoulders/base of the neck, then a quick throwing/shaking forward motion is all that's needed to be effective.  I still wouldn't use it as a matter of routine, but for determined and unpredictable lungers it works brilliantly.

I also hate to see show dogs - any dogs -  strung up on tight thin leashes, some don't even manage to get their front feet on the floor!.  I'd love to see dogs in the ring moved as most Bedlingtons are - loose leads and allowing the dog to move as nature intended.

Sorry Dill, but it is not rubbish.  There is a reason why check chains are also called *choke* chains and that is because that is what they are designed to do.   Why do you think some dogs react to the "clink" of the chain?  It is like the warning beep on those "invisible fence" systems - the dog learns that a warning beep proceeds a shock, so for most dogs the beep is enough to keep them in bounds.  Dogs learn that the "clink" proceeds the unpleasant tightening of the chain around their necks if they continue.  You can colour it as you like, but that is how they work if they are used correctly.   If they are used incorrectly, with the chain at the base of the neck, then if the dog responds to just a noise ... then great, but its not how they are intended to be used.

Half check collars are totally different than all-chain choke or check collars, they cannot choke.      

>If they are used incorrectly, with the chain at the base of the neck, then if the dog responds to just a noise

Check/choke chains cannot be positioned to be at the top of the neck, just under the ears, if they're correctly used, because correct usage means that they're loose when the dog is walking properly. If they're loose they'll slip down the neck nearer to the shoulder area, unlike the prong collar which is fitted snugly to the extremely sensitive upper throat area, and cannot slip down.

This is the position that a check/choke chain is used in practice, as opposed to the prong collar position.

We can argue about this until the cows come home - but the link for the "prong collar position" is the position the choke collar is *supposed* to be in when it is used. The link you have for the choke/check collar at the base of the GSDs neck is exactly why most people trying to train their dog with a check collar find it does not work - because a yank on the collar at that muscular point of the neck is not going to do anything to a dog intent on doing what it wishes.  If you know what you are doing it is actually not difficult at all to position the choke collar correctly at the uppermost part of the neck, but it means you have to pay very close attention to your dog at all times.   The prong collar is more "foolproof" because it stays in position (if sized correctly) and will do its nasty stuff with little interference by the owner.

Suggest you look at the video on Milan's site of his "Illusion Collar", it is essentially a harness for the neck which secures a fabric choke collar built into it in the proper position ... as Cesar says "at the top and most sensitive part of the neck".   His product warning states it cannot be used for dogs with less than 13" necks, a dog that weighs less than 18 lbs, puppies, dogs with "pushed in faces", dogs with trachea or throat problems .... etc.    Why?   Because at the end of the day it is a choke collar! 

Guess I'm a little confused about why people seem to be defending choke collars????  Both prong and choke/check collars are not very kind training devices, IMO.

Just wanted to add the the link which shows the choke collar on the GSD's neck is where the collar would fall if it is just placed on the dog.   In use - when training the dog - the collar is supposed to be positioned right behind the dog's ears, at the very top of the neck.

I'm not defending choke/check collars, just pointing out that a prong collar cannot be worn loose, whereas a choke/check chain can - that's the point of it. It's loose (and therefore ends lower on the dog's neck) when the dog is walking properly. When the chain is in this position only the 'chink' noise is needed to attract the dog's attention back to the owner, so it needn't tighten.

CM's 'Illusion collar' is called that because it gives an illusion of being humane, when in fact it isn't!

I did my training with BAGSDA years ago when Check chains were all the rage for training heel work. Luckily I had a great teacher who explained that a check chain is just that...for checking unwanted behaviour. Used correctly it will give a "chink" when jerked..enough to get the dogs attention then it is the handlers job to keep that dogs attention! Lots of people use check and prong collars as punishment for wrong behavious, and to be honest any collar can be used as such, a flat collar can be placed to high and tight and cause untold damage to a sensetive neck. If you believe that to use ANY collar correctly you should cause pain then may I sugest you retrain. No collar is an intrument of torture or should not be, learn how to use them properly and try a little harder with your methods of teaching your dogs and you will reap the rewards. I niether defend nor dercry their usage but wish for them to be used properly if used at all. A good dog handler will utilize the chink of a check chain to gain attention only. The idea then is to use voice and reward to continue that behaviour. There are IMO lots of much kinder ways to regain control of a strong unrully dog on the market now but any "Item" used has to be used humanly or not used at all. Even the head collars/harnesses are capable of being misused it is the handler who must learn to teach!!
Aileen

> ive never used a choke chain on any of my dogs and think they should be banned

i use a choke chain but i never throttle with it, its more that if i jiggle it he listens to the noise. that being said i have seen them used violently and its horrible. any steering thats required i use a halti.

> I had a great teacher who explained that a check chain is just that...for checking unwanted behaviour. Used correctly it will give a "chink" when jerked..enough to get the dogs attention then it is the handlers job to keep that dogs attention!

quite. i prefer it because i don;t like flat collars. i also think that they suit my breed to wear, Tio is a gorgeous dark red and his collar is brass so looks lovely. i have considered switching to a leather half check as i love proper leather but i don't think i'd trust the strength if something did happen.

i agree with you,all im saying that anyone can go into a shop and by a choke chain but how many know how to use it properly.when i bought my first halti it came with instructions,but ive never seen a choke with instructions and not all dog owners go to dog training sessions where they would be shown how to use it properly.a choke chain got its name for whaat it does,and became popular in the 80s after being used by a famous tv trainer. when training my dogs ,to get their attention i shake a small  pop bottle half filled with gravel and one shake always get the dogs full attention.maybe choke chains should only be available through dog trainers or vets so owners would be shown how to us them correctly.what do all think.

ps. since being introduced they have always been called choke chain.its only recntly that they have been called check simply because people prefer the word check to choke.the design is still the same so what ever there called,i think the sale on these should be restricted.

> anyone can go into a shop and by a choke chain but how many know how to use it properly

true.

> maybe choke chains should only be available through dog trainers or vets so owners would be shown how to us them correctly.what do all think

perhaps a tutorial on how to use it at the time of purchase?

yes that type of thing as you can always find chains in most supermarkets and even the ever incrreasing cheap shops.as a dog lover i think this is quite worrying.:-(

i do agree diggersdad. i use a choke chain but we have always used choke chains and i was brought up using them and was taught as a kid so know not to pull them. if your just picking one up then problems will result

> There is a reason why check chains are also called *choke* chains and that is because that is what they are designed to do.   Why do you think some dogs react to the "clink" of the chain?......Dogs learn that the "clink" proceeds the unpleasant tightening of the chain around their necks if they continue.

I've trained Buster to walk on a flat collar, he now has a half-check collar. The 'chink' sound the collar makes when he starts to put tension on the lead will automatically make him slow down so he doesn't pull, yet he has never been choked by a choke chain or his half check collar. I've taught him a 'no pull' command on a flat collar (said at time of him putting tension on the lead), when I switched to the half-check collar the 'no pull' command (if needed) would be used at the very instant the chain started to chink, so now the chinking chain noise works just the same as me saying 'no pull/walk' (instead of the word 'heel').
Just beacasue a dog pays attention to the 'chink' noise does not mean that the dog has been bullied/chocked/strung up or trained with anything other than positive methods.

im not on about owners who know how to use the chains,im on about the ease at which some of the chains can be bought with no advice on how to use them.although ive always had dogs and my granddad was a dog trainer who taught me how to use a choke chain correctly ,personaly i would never use one.these chains can be very dangerous and cruel to dogs whos owners dont even know how to put a chain on their dogs correctly,never mind using one as a training aid.if owners choose to use chockers in the training and they know how to use and fit one thats their choice,but for an inexperienced owner to just go out and buy one without proffessional advice on how to use them and what damage they could cause the dog if the chains are used incorrectly,is just insane.

Mastifflover,

As I said earlier, a half-check chain is totally different from a full choke/check chain.  The half check is designed so it cannot completely tighten in on itself, as a choke chain does.   If your dog responds to the "clink" on a half-check, that's fantastic.

"i agree with you,all im saying that anyone can go into a shop and by a choke chain but how many know how to use it properly.when i bought my first halti it came with instructions,but ive never seen a choke with instructions and not all dog owners go to dog training sessions where they would be shown how to use it properly.a choke chain got its name for whaat it does,and became popular in the 80s after being used by a famous tv trainer. when training my dogs ,to get their attention i shake a small  pop bottle half filled with gravel and one shake always get the dogs full attention.maybe choke chains should only be available through dog trainers or vets so owners would be shown how to us them correctly.what do all think. "

That is a great idea.  Any choke chain should absolutely be sold with instructions on how to use it correctly, that is should be used when training only, and all appropriate warnings.