Hi,

I switched my Labs over to BARF about a week ago.  They were on Burns previously, but I didn't feel one of them was doing particularly well on it, plus the recent price increases made me consider other options.  BARF appealed as I would know exactly what I was giving them.

So I've been following a meal plan pretty much word for word, as described in a book I was recommended.  I think that it's about 60% RMBs.  For their RMB meals they've been having chicken wings or whole carcasses.  I'm just a little surprised about their poo (a dog owner's favourite subject...)  Almost immediately it became very pale, beige perhaps, and rock hard - not surprising really with the bone content, but it's occasionally very crumbly too - this morning for example, it came out like clumps of sand :-o  I've once seen a tiny bit of blood in it, but I expect that an 'exit' injury rather than anything internal.  Does this kind of thing carry on?  Should I expect daily variation in their poos?  I suppose daily differences make sense, as their meals are different daily, but how do I gauge what's 'normal'?

I'm also curious about freezing - I've read that some do this to kill parasites.  In most cases this is convenient, but occasionally it would suit to feed them fresh... is this 'allowed'?

Thanks, and apologies for the poo descriptions!

Clare

>not surprising really with the bone content, but it's occasionally very crumbly too - this morning for example, it came out like clumps of sand

I am no expert by any means but from what I have read that sounds as though the bone to meat ratio is too high.

> I've once seen a tiny bit of blood in it, but I expect that an 'exit' injury rather than anything internal.  Does this kind of thing carry on? 

My cockers cope with bones ok but my terrier always had rectal bleeding so I stopped allowing them.

> I'm also curious about freezing - I've read that some do this to kill parasites. 

This only applies to beef.  The issue with chicken is bacteria, which will not be destroyed by freezing although it does prevent them multiplying during their frozen period.

Thanks Isabel, I did wonder if this meant I was feeding too much bone, but I also wondered if it could just be an initial adjustment thing as I'm not feeding a balance every day, but over time.... so it may take time for things to even out? 

As for the bleeding, only seen it once, but I will monitor it. 

Also, good to know I can give them some fresh chicken wings for tea tonight, as my freezer supplies have diminished rapidly!!

Welcome to the world of BARF.
One of the added advantages of BARF is less poo!!If will normally remain white and crumbly and a little hard as the bones will absorb much of the water in the intestinal tract.I either freeze,if I have enough room in the freezer or feed fresh.When I get my meat from the local butcher he doesn't always freeze it.Some people do freeze to kill any parasites,but domestic freezers don't freeze at low enough temperatures to kill them all off.Given the choice,my Woos would prefer all there food frozen when I give it to them anyway!I just make sure their wormers are up to date as a local gamekeeper will give us an occasional bunny or pheasant,just my own prefererence.You will notice then that not only is their poo white but fluffy too!
When I first started I followed books almost to the letter,but now adapt to suit my dogs needs,and have the confidence to do so.Also you learn all the time on the job so to speak!

>So I've been following a meal plan pretty much word for word, as described in a book I was recommended.  I think that it's about 60% RMBs

Following a meal plan is good, IF all dogs were the same.. some dogs do well on 60% others do better on less..

>and rock hard - not surprising really with the bone content, but it's occasionally very crumbly too - this morning for example, it came out like clumps of sand

Occassionally my lot have this.. and its usually means an adjustment is required... a little less bone..

The tiny amount of blood is more likely to be through straining (popping tiny blood vessels) than an exit injury, again, should resolve by feeding less bone

Beef is a must for freezing, this kills off Neospora.  all other meat can be given fresh

My dogs vary on the bone content, some do very well around the 60%, but I have a couple who get  constipated at 50% .. .. my lot get between 40-60%  

Poo's can vary daily, but not drastically, its is very much a case of trial and error when starting a raw fed diet,  and a lot of adjustments to get each dogs needs catered for...

I also have one girl, who does not do well on raw, I have never managed to get the balance right.. too much bone gives severe consitpation, yet adding more meat gives her the runs.. so she went back onto kibble, 

i agree with the previous comments particulalry about learning as you go and adjusting to suit your indiviual dogs. Dont worry about going to the letter of the book use it as a guide and think of it in the same way as you would if  you were feeding humans. The longer you are a it the more confident you become. With regard to raw I get most of my meat already frozen which helps with that aspect but would't worry about chieken if it was fresh. Otherwise just pop it into the freezer to reassure yourself. I must admit i didn't not know about the reqirement to freeze at lower than a domestic freezer  but i guess keeping worming up to date will also help

Some days my dogs poo's are a little hard but this usually changes quite quickly by giving a bit less bone at the next meal or 2
The poo's you descride are what I get too. much less to pick up and not so smelly.
Off at a slight tangent but I now remember when I was little how dog poo's in the street were always white and hard and now realise it was probably pre complete meals when most dogs were fed in a more natural way or at least scraps from the table. It didn't dawn on me until I started mine on raw.

Yes it is all about trial and error as all dogs seem to cope differently. My two Labs have been eating Barf for a few years now thanks to having a very good education from an experienced Barfer ( thanks Kay :-) ) The only thing they do struggle with is whole fish and will regurgitate which was done all over my kitchen floor so only feed tinned pilcards or white fillets now.

The rescue girl who came to us about 6 months ago who is also a Lab used to be fed on Bakers. The poos were terrible and so she was changed over straight away. It took her a lot longer to adjust to the diet and had terrible wind but now she is fine and is coping well with the diet.

One thing I did notice is that initially bone fragments were quite visable in the poos at first but once their digestion had got used to the change it was much more effective at breaking the bone down.

That's useful to know that the bone fragments weren't visible after a while.  However, I may drop them down to about 50% for now and see how it goes (it'll also make meal plans more simple!)

But while I'm here.... and have the attention of you experienced barfers.. Veg!  My favourite book recommends a veg meal 1 or 2 times a week, with tinned fish.  The veg quantity is 1 1/2 'cups'... a unit that panics me when it comes to baking, and even more so when it comes to feeding my dogs.  It doesn't look very much, and I feel this is an important part of the diet, so don't want to neglect it.  I would be very interested in what quantity you lot feed yours... preferably a mass rather than a volume :-) 

Thanks for the advice so far, I was planning to follow the book religiously for the first month until I got the hang of it.... but think I'll alter a few things now.

Clare

I give them them all kinds of fruit and veg but mainly as treats rather than in their food. Again I don't keep to a limit on how much and when so not scientifically done.

They also get the pilchards in tomato sauce so another source of veg or fruit as a tom is a friut !  They occasionally get whizzed veg or I make lots of veg soup so they normally get a good dollop of that with what ever they are having.

I wrote this out for someone a few years ago.. hope it helps..

For Vegetables, I simply chuck a mix of whats available into blender or juicer, in bulk, and pour into 100ml tubs then freeze.. (the ideal size of tubs are those little polystyrene cups which come with Indian takeaways.. the one that hold the mango chutney/mixed pickle etc :-)

Quantities - as a guideline feed 2 - 3% of your present dog's bodyweight per day. Calculate this by multiplying 2/3 by your dog's weight and dividing it by 100.

Eg 2 x 30/100 = 600g, 3 x 30/100 = 900g.

However be guided by your hand and eye; if the dog is looking a little too ribby up the amount and reduce if the dog is looking a little too well padded! Dogs will vary depending on age, sex, activity level, temperament and time of year.

For a puppy either 2/3% of the projected adult weight or 10% of its current weight.

A three joint chicken wing weighs approximately 100g (as opposed to some of the two joint chicken wings you get in supermarkets) so work out the quantities from this. 

Meats - lamb, beef, chicken, turkey, rabbit, pork, venison, duck, ALL on the bone ie: lamb rib, beef rib, whole rabbit etc

Hearts, lungs, kidneys, tripe the list is endless.

Fish - oily fish is good, pilchards, mackerel, sardines, trout fresh or tinned.

Farm shops are good for trays of eggs, and cheaper than the local supermarket And my favourite.... the local gamekeeper 

Veggies - All except onions; they can cause haemolytic anaemia in dogs because they contain chemicals that oxidise the animal's red blood cells.

Oxalic acid can interfere with calcium absorption; so don't feed too much of Spinach, Chard or Beetroot Leaves.

Care should be taken not to overfeed cabbage, brussel sprouts, cauliflower, kale, swedes, turnips, cassava, and broccoli to dogs as this may inhibit thyroid function.

Tomatoes, potatoes, peppers and aubergines all belong to the nightshade family of plants. Dogs who have arthritis may be sensitive to these foods;

Fruit - all except Grapes and raisins which can cause kidney failure.

Dairy - IMHO nothing except live yoghurt. (I do feed milk to my lot, they can tolerate it, but dogs on the whole are lactose intollerant) This is purely down to your preference

Eggs - raw with shell

Grains/cereals - none; dogs are not built to digest them (says me who feeds Ambrosia rice pudding )  well... they are entitled to little treats 

Vitamins/Supplements - Again that is down to the individual; my dogs get:

a fresh minced clove of garlic every day,
1000mg FBO (Fish Body Oil),
400 iu Natural Vitamin E (d-alpha-tocopherol),
1000mg of Ester C with bio-flavonoids
and Keepers Mix (alfalfa/kelp)

Books - The simplest one is Switching to Raw by Sue Johnson but that is not easily available in the UK. The next best one IMHO is Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats by Kymythy Schulze, very accessible, easy to read, has diet plans. Some extraneous stuff you don't need ie reader testimonials and I personally don't agree with fasting.

Ian Billingshurst has written several books; The Barf Diet is probably the easiest, Give your Dog a Bone is very comprehensive but very badly written, Grow your pups with bones is more for the stud dog/brood bitch puppy owner. Tom Lonsdale's Raw Meaty Bones is less useful for the beginner IMHO.

Frequency of feeding - twice a day, remember though, puppies still need fed 4 times per day until 12 weeks and then 3 times until around 6months or whenever they themselves decide to miss out lunch 

Suggested menu -guide only

Monday am: RMBs eg chicken wings, drumsticks, thighs, carcases etc, ribs, trotters, rabbit, oxtail
Monday pm: Tripe

Tuesday am: RMBs
Tuesday pm: liver and veggies

Wednesday am: RMBs
Wednesday pm: Meat, raw egg, veggies

Thursday am: RMBs
Thursday pm: Kidneys and veggies

Friday am: RMBs
Friday pm: Hearts and veggies

Saturday am: RMBs
Saturday pm: Tinned or fresh fish

Sunday am: RMBs
Sunday pm: Live yoghurt, raw egg, banana etc. ( mixed together in a blender, makes a wonderful smoothie)  

Thanks Kay - I think I must have been taking your advice already... I made a note a couple of years ago on another forum of these details, and the book I'm (rightly or wrongly) using as my bible is the Sue Johnson one! Didn't realise it came from you though :-) 100ml is the a measurement I understand... so you tend to feed veg with meat rather than as a meal by itself... and 4 times a week, rather than once or twice.  I may give that a go then too.  Just realised though, dropping the RMB percentage (which the lovely local butcher gives me for free :-) ) means I'll need a lot more freezer space so I can order the other stuff in bulk.  Hmmmm... wonder if I can get away with a freezer in the living room......

>Thanks Kay - I think I must have been taking your advice already... I made a note a couple of years ago on another forum of these details, and the book I'm (rightly or >wrongly) using as my bible is the Sue Johnson one! Didn't realise it came from you though

I did :-)  I originally wrote it out for someone on a Lab Forum.. and its been tweeked, copied, pasted and duplicated many times over the years :-)

>so you tend to feed veg with meat rather than as a meal by itself... and 4 times a week, rather than once or twice.

Dogs take very little, or no nutrition from vegetables.. so a veg meal on its own, is not ideal.. Also.. I dont stick religiously to my above menu.. I hate to say, I am now at the stage where the dogs get a complete mix of all of the above, in no particular order.. some weeks they will get veg twice, others 4 or 5, but alway with a meat meal.. but mainly if I give them a meal of minced meat or offal.. not with RMB's

I have been feeding raw now for around 5/6 years (I think) and no longer need to check weight of meat or portion out veg etc.. it becomes natural over a period of time to see by eye, how much bone, or meat etc is in a meal..

when I 1st began feeding raw, I weighed everything.. fed a balanced meal everyday lol..  Now.. I dont weigh, and meals are probably balanced over a week to 10 days.. to give an overall healthy diet.. without the rigidity..

hope that makes sense lol

Thats really clear kay excellent help for everyone.

As Kay said some dogs do well on 60% bone but others need less. Both my dogs are raw fed and they get around 10-15% bone which seems to be ideal for them. The one thing to remember is that Raw Meaty Bones should have the emphasis on meaty :-) - I sometimes feed chicken carcasses supplied by the butcher but feed additional meat to them with these as they are very bony indeed.

hmmm... I've read RMBs should be a 1:1 meat:bone ratio.  Hence the carcass as a meal alone.  Oh this BARF thing can be very confusing indeed :-o  I like nice simple rules!!!

Have a look at this site.. SARF  as opposed to BARF 

http://www.thewholedog.org/feedingsarf.html

good site and I would say it is more thetway I feed rather than true barf

flipping heck... more confusion.  Maybe i'll go back to burns hehehehe.  Not really, their soooooo happy with their new diet :-)  At least with adult dogs you can make adjustments as required, not sure i'll ever have the confidence to raise a pup on barf/sarf/other confusing regime..