>That does seem to contradict the notion that they will happily do this by nature if they have to be trained.

Not really. Most of us here can naturally run and jump, but we'd need to be trained to compete in a hurdles race! :-D

>The jockeys make the horses go in the direction they want them to and place them at the fences therefor it has to jump.

Jockeys steer the horses in a straight course and regulate their speed so that the horse doesn't go too fast and at the wrong angle to clear the fence. If the horses were jockeyless and chased to run freely down the course there would be far more injuries and fatalities. Horses, even with a jockey aboard, will refuse a fence if they don't want to jump it.

>Loose horses mostly continue to run but will avoid jumping the fences if they can.

No - if you were watching you'd have seen three loose horses leading the field over several fences, only going off course at a point where the National course itself curved to the left but another course went straight on, which is the one the loose horses took, because they weren't being steered.

>They can then decide for themselves whether they want to jump the fences or not .

And the fact that so many do shows that the horses aren't scared of jumping them.

Well Jan I hope you've got your carriage ready to take your dogs out for a run today if we're all going to go by what's 'natural' for an animal.........

My dogs have already been out for run, thanks, and chased a couple of rabbits, and so have done what is natural for their species.

I'm not sure that wild horses naturally pull loads, so being harnessed to a carriage isn't a natural equine behaviour.

6 horses died running or having run the national yesterday..the highest since 1997.

FUN ?

How many horses died yesterday having not run in any race?

You seem to miss the point; nobody wants the horses to be injured, but if horses are to express their natural behaviour (running and jumping) as per the AWA then there will naturally be risks. That's Life. The racing is fun, for the horses as well as people; the injuries or fatalities aren't 'fun', but nothing in life is totally risk-free, and the course is much more forgiving of horse or rider error than it used to be.

> then there will naturally be risks. That's Life.

I think the risks here are so very much higher than Life.  You ask how many horses not running died yesterday but that would only be meaningful if you looked at another group with 40 members not running and I doubt you would find one with a loss as high as 6 in one day.

Must admit I wondered that the other day when I saw a group of horses and realised how low the fence was even I could get over it.  Poor horse that died of the heart attack straight after coming 2nd on Friday.

When you think of the number of dogs entered at shows, it is an extremely rare thing if one ever died there. 

Surely if so many horses die at such events they must not be healthy enough to do them, so the same thing as at Crufts??

>When you think of the number of dogs entered at shows, it is an extremely rare thing if one ever died there. 

Dog shows don't usually involve a lot of physical exertion, do they (apart from some of the very unfit handlers, who sometimes look as if they're about to drop dead after a mere two circuits of the ring!)? Physical exertion in itself carries risk of injury.

I can step over our garden fence, but the dogs never jump it, even I know that they could - it's just that nobody's told them!

I think physical exertion would be very good for horses, like all animals.  I don't have any problem with flat racing but it is the extremes of danger that this race presents that I feel is too much and too unfair to the horses.

> 6 horses died running or having run the national yesterday..the highest since 1997.
>
> FUN ?

OMG-thats awful.Were they horses that dropped dead in their stables? I once knew a flat jockey who didn't like the National-he said quite often horses died in their stables after the race and the GP didn't get to hear about them.

>I don't have any problem with flat racing

Ah, now I do have a problem with flat racing! the horses start racing far too young (NH horses often aren't even broken in by the time flat racers are into their second season), and the risk of broken legs seems to be even higher (especially overseas on different surfaces) than for NH.

> the horses start racing far too young

Well I don't like the sound of that but not convinced the risk of broken legs is higher, not in the UK anyway, welfare issues abroad being a whole other kettle of fish.  You never seem to hear of losses like the National suffers in flat racing but if they are high I feel it would fall into two wrong not making a right.

> You never seem to hear of losses like the National suffers in flat racing

That's probably because the National is so famous for being a long race - horses have even died breaking their legs during the Derby (a race for 2 year olds), which is a short sprint.

> nobody wants the horses to be injured, but if horses are to express their natural behaviour (running and jumping) as per the AWA then there will naturally be risks. That's Life. The racing is fun, for the horses as well as people; the injuries or fatalities aren't 'fun', but nothing in life is totally risk-free, and the course is much more forgiving of horse or rider error than it used to be.

I think there would be less people against horse racing if the horses weren't being ridden. Greyhounds stonk around the track and can manage to angle thierselfs for jumps, corners etc without the need to be guided by a rider, it would be nice to see the horses belting around the track because they enjoyed it, not because they are being pushed to do it. I know the greyhounds get to chase a 'hare' that sparks thier hunting instinct, but if horses do have the instinct to run & jump with the herd, at the speeds they are raced at, it would surely be easy to gently ride a lead horse out in front, release the rest and they would run in the required direction on thier own?

TwO horses collaped after the race as well as one who died but still they show it and still its 4 1/5 miles over huge JUMPS
Why i ask myself:

answer = MONEY THATS WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuurm I beg to differ! Don't ever think that a horse would choose to be stabled as much as they are and fed such a diet over being in a field 24 x 7 all year round... I know, I have had severall ex racers and they are very messed up horses.

Not necessarily for 4.5 miles over massive fences though :)

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrm... actually a horse will avoid expending too much energy so will run as far as it takes to remove itself from the threat and then stop to recover. They won't run 4.5 miles and over anything in their way usually to get away from a dog.

Horses wouldnt follow a lead horse they are not a prey species which is why a greyhound runs after a hare. The stimulus for that would have to come from a predator behind them.
Oh and greyhound racing is another bone of contention as far as animal welfare goes.

Horses in the wild generally don't grab themselves ten adn a half stone to carry over the fences too - whilst going at full pelt

Horses will follow a lead horse, if that horse is the dominant mare in a herd - and the herd would generally be backed up adn kept together by a stallion which would act defensively if the herd were under attack.

>it would surely be easy to gently ride a lead horse out in front, release the rest and they would run in the required direction on thier own?

You'd need to keep up the impetus - if you've ever watched TV programmes where lion are hunting zebra, the zebra don't all run in the same direction - they scatter and run away until they feel safer, stop and watch what's happening elsewhere in the herd. Horses would behave in the same way - they're prey animals, so they run away - greyhounds are predators so they run towards.

Greyhounds certainly do go stonking around the track, but they also get injured. It's just that dog injuries are easier to repair than horse injuries.

>Jockeys steer the horses in a straight course and regulate their speed so that the horse doesn't go too fast and at the wrong angle to clear the fence. If the horses were jockeyless and chased to run freely down the course there would be far more injuries and fatalities. Horses, even with a jockey aboard, will refuse a fence if they don't want to jump it.

Sorry Jan :) Horses will jump try to jump fences they don't want to - if they have been battered for NOT jumping previously! Go look at some low level Showjumping at local shows and seehow appallingly some folk treat their horses - they only get away with it cos horses can't yelp or scream

I used to work with racehorses, so I've seen first hand how they're treated. There are always bad apples in every sport; showjumping, dog racing, horse racing, dog showing etc etc. It doesn't mean the sport itself is intrinsically bad.

> You never seem to hear of losses like the National suffers in flat racing

No, you never hear of the thousands of youngsters who don't make the grade being carted off to Potters and Turners to be shot either do you

Sorry, they don't scatter like zebras - they run in a herd - safety in numbers.

To be honest I've never seen a herd of several hundred horses, such as the size of zebra herds. I've seen smaller groups of 20 or so, and in one they certainly did run in different directions when a dog started chasing amongst them.

There are a lot of bad apples. I had an ex racer who I had to buy for meat money as he was going to be shot - he had won £65K but because he had injured a ligament and he wouldn't race again and needed 6 months off he was doomed. He's now out jumping. When he arrived they had to sedate him to travel him as he was so wound up - £65K to death in a matter of weeks.

It depends ont he circumstances - if they are in a restricted space then yes, maybe, but if they are on unlimited land they will go as a herd. They won't try to jump fences though -mine don't, and I have had a few nightmare dogs in my field!

I am not actually against the National, I thought the winner was fantastic yesterday. What I am against is the assumption that horses would choose the life of a racer, or choose to run in that race - as opposed to a natural life in a herd. I think you have to truly understand and know and own horses to understand that

I'm going to shut up in a min lol. 6 horses dead is appalling. The start was a mess and I wouldn't be at all suprised if that didn't wind some up too much.

> Horses will follow a lead horse, if that horse is the dominant mare in a herd - and the herd would generally be backed up adn kept together by a stallion which would act defensively if the herd were under attack.

Yes but then doesnt that involve the predator I mentioned rather than just following a lead rider as suggested previously :) ?

>What I am against is the assumption that horses would choose the life of a racer, or choose to run in that race - as opposed to a natural life in a herd.

I suppose it's similar to the idea that dogs (being another social species) would rather live naturally as a semi-feral group than as individuals made to go to different environments with their owner.

Yes, it does :)

To understand it we have to look at how we train horses... they don't just learn to "go" when we get on their backs. They have to be trained to accept a rider and trained to accept that rider giving them aids, or signals... which they have to be trained to yield to in order to go forward (or sideways, or backwards). Ideally they learn to go forward from pressure from the leg (a squeeze) but when that doesn't work (opr stops working) some folk will use a whip - so if they are getting a whack on the rump from something that stings, then generally they are still running or trying to escape from what they could percieve to be a "predator"

If a horse is following a leader, its not necessarily trained at all. The clever bit is training a herd animal to ride away from the herd and concentrate on the owner. Which is, I guess, where the winners come from ;)

I have found that Dogs seem to really love humans, horses retain far more natural behaviours and will generally choose to live amongst their own kind (they are far less domesticated than we think sometimes).

> No, you never hear of the thousands of youngsters who don't make the grade being carted off to Potters and Turners to be shot either do you

I would assume it would be like that because that is how it is with greyhound racing but I am not particularly defending the world surrounding flat racing just looking at the actual activity itself and the danger it represents to the animal on the day and it seems to be to be considerably less that the Grand National which to me seems inexcusably gruelling.

Yep my only point in all of this was that the suggestion of the lead horse wouldnt work  the same as a hare would for the greyhound. :-D

Think we have similar debates each year with people agreeing and disagreeing. Hopefully it will all remain a healthy debate.

Can someone - Annee? - please explain where they got the 6 horses figure that you are all repeating?

I am trying to find it too - there is mention of it on the POints of View website, but I can't find anything else. But they're not talking about the one that collapsed on the run in adn died either - Hear the Edge I think.

The number of horses that sadly died is for the whole of the Aintee meeting according to the Animal Aid website

Thanks :)
Makes sad reading... running a horse that keeps needing oxygen after running shouldn't be allowed in my opinion. Why are horses seen as so expendable by the public? They wouldn't stand round and watch fluffy rabbits die on tv or dogs keel over from exhaustion -there would be a national outcry! They made enough fuss about foxes!

I don't like either of them, but flat racing is bad because they start riding them so young. I've been offered an ex racer now - windsucks, stress head, needs retraining, need lots of food, rugging all through winter, need other horses round him 24x7 as the yard he is at does everythign with them in 2's to keep them handleable... I just can't take him at the moment :(

As far as I can discover, Hear the Edge was the only fatality of the Grand National. The quoted figure of 6 seems to have been rather misleading.

>> it would surely be easy to gently ride a lead horse out in front, release the rest and they would run in the required direction on thier own?
> You'd need to keep up the impetus

I see what you mean.
I don't know anything about horses (bet you guessed that allready, LOL!), I just thought that as rider-less horses will carry on with a race they must have some sort of instinct to run with the horse infront of it, but running without a reason (escaping a predator) is not going to give much 'drive' to the running, so a lead horse is not really going to make the horses race, even if the horses ran to follow it.

> Why are horses seen as so expendable by the public? They wouldn't stand round and watch fluffy rabbits die on tv or dogs keel over from exhaustion -there would be a national outcry! They made enough fuss about foxes!

This is what I do not understand - if the odds of 1 in 40 dying (which I think is pretty usual for this race) were the chances of one of our dogs dying in competition, I doubt any of us would be happy with that. Yet for horses it is just fine and we can watch them die on TV for our enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how this is anything other than animal cruelty with odds like that.

Whenever we mate our bitches we accept the risk that all might not go well, and she or her puppies might even die. But we still do it.

> Dog shows don't usually involve a lot of physical exertion, do they (apart from some of the very unfit handlers, who sometimes look as if they're about to drop dead after a mere two circuits of the ring!)? Physical exertion in itself carries risk of injury.
>

Being out on a shoot all day is immense physical exertion for a gundog but you never hear of a dog dying through a day's work.

Immense physical exertion? Really? When I've been on shoots the dogs spend most of the day walking with their handlers (if beating) or sitting with their handlers (if picking up), with only short bursts of running to retrieve for a few minutes. Certainly no more strenuous than a decent walk.

> Whenever we mate our bitches we accept the risk that all might not go well, and she or her puppies might even die. But we still do it.

I find it hard to believe that the chances of a bitch dying are as high as 1 in 40. I have never been involved in breeding dogs but would be very surprised if this was similar to the chances of a horse competing in the National suffering a fatal injury. Nothing is risk free, my point is it is the very high risk in a race such as this which makes it cruel.