Who,s having a bet on the grand national today?
I,m having a pound each way on Black Alapachi.

No, I don't agree with it. The question I'd really like to know the answer to is why the BBC will show this and not Crufts -dogs don't usually die during Crufts............

I am in Aus... has it run yet? I liked the sound of My Will.... but I'm not much of a gambler :-)

about an hour to the race ,would you like to know the results?

Yes please!!

Okay I,ll let you know

> No, I don't agree with it. The question I'd really like to know the answer to is why the BBC will show this and not Crufts -dogs don't usually die during Crufts............

I can't add much more than that Marianne except to say my sentiments entirely.    Well I hope no-one's horse on here is one of the fatalities as there's always bound to be one.

Very good question, Marianne.

Won't bet on a horse to die  Saw one earlier this afternoon a grey he did'nt want to race they tried everything but he was was'nt going..only hope they did'nt miss treat him after this! god love him.
I'm just hoping they all survive it.

not likely all will survive...hate it...especially after i spent this morning helping out at riding for the disabled stables
some lovely horses there..

> No, I don't agree with it. The question I'd really like to know the answer to is why the BBC will show this and not Crufts -dogs don't usually die during Crufts............

Couldn't agree more-its not exactly entertainment is it?

I don't often bet actual money, but I always pick a couple to follow and cheer on. This year one fell and I'm not sure about the other yet - but I always watch it. The sound of all those hooves thundering along gets the adrenalin coursing! And thankfully the loose horses didn't cause any problems this year.

Has anyone heard about how the horse is that collapsed, had to go upstairs.

Died :( RIP poor fella.
Two others required oxygen, Butlers Cabin and Comply or Die

just heard, so sad poor horse :(

anyone know who won??

Mon Mone....i think that is how it is spelt  100-1  !!!!!!

I won £120 on the 4th place horse.

If a horse didn't want to run it would refuse to move as did a horse in the race before or will refuse to jump. The horses are at the peek of fitness and get the best possible food and treatment and have happy life. The parade of old winners shows how they are treated after they retire and all looked absolutely fantastic.

Many more horses get ill treated and live a miserable life in many places around the world and so if you compare this to how National Hunt horses get treated there is no comparison.

i won £30 at work, names all on a board, and £1.50 to enter, i was one of the last to do so, and only a few left, went with mon mome, as i had been listening to a david gray song that morning where he sang french. wish i had put a fiver on him now....oh well.
but agree with the point that its disgcraceful that the bbc show this and not crufts.

If a horse didn't want to run it would refuse to move as did a horse in the race before or will refuse to jump. The horses are at the peek of fitness and get the best possible food and treatment and have happy life.

Even so -would you enter a dog at Crufts if you knew there was a chance of it dying in the ring? I know I wouldn't.

>would you enter a dog at Crufts if you knew there was a chance of it dying in the ring? I know I wouldn't.

A better comparison would be "Would you allow your dog to run through undergrowth even though you knew it might get injured - even kill itself - on a sharp branch?" Dogs do die doing that - and yet I'd still let my dog do it.

To me there is a world of difference between comapring a Bulldog dying at Crufts exhibiting Heat Stroke, Respiratory distress then Pulomary and cardiac arrest and a Jump horse dying due to mechanism of injury (Spinal).......

edited to add: But I see the link to breeding. (Bring back big Bottomed horses like Red Rum, not failed flats)

Rubbish JG -you don't get at least one dog dying every time some dogs runs through undergrowth so it doesn't compare at all.

I am not sure that Bulldogs are asked to do more at Crufts than they might do elsewhere on a short walk.  They certainly don't run them round the ring :-) although I suppose it may be warmer under the lights.  However I am not at all sure that a horse would choose to run over 4 miles and negotiate how ever many rather high hedges in an increasingly tired condition if a jockey was not urging them on.  Would they?  Can't say I know an awful lot about horses but this seems unlikely to me.

Whilst jockeys can and do 'encourage' it is in the main the wild instinct to run with the pack Isabel...as we see with the Horses that have unseated their riders still completing the course.

(But dogs have died at Crufts.....)

> (But dogs have died at Crufts.....)

You can only assume it must have been a close run thing that it didn't happen at home

Horses can die through slipping and falling while running round their home paddock.

Better a possibly shorter life spent fulfilling your instincts than a longer cotton-wool life of frustration.

> Horses can die through slipping and falling while running round their home paddock.

yes but they are not being forced/encouraged to run and jump over things.

you must admit its a very very dangerous sport with an awful lot of fatalities.

>yes but they are not being forced/encouraged to run and jump over things.

Horses naturally run and jump over things - film of wild horses shows them doing just that; and yes, sometimes they fall and injure or kill themselves. They are a herd animal, and running with the herd is instinctive, which is why loose horses continue to race.

Yes, it's a dangerous sport. But it's not making horses do anything that nature (or God, depending on your point of view) designed them to do.

> You can only assume it must have been a close run thing

No. no. no.... I would never make an ass out of u or me ;)

> Horses naturally run and jump over things

If this is the case why do we not see more horses loose that have jumped over the fencing holding them in the paddock?    I live in the countryside & walk the dogs in much the same but yet have I ever to see a horse having jumped it's boundary fence and most of those are no height at all.    

And look at the bone to body mass proportions of a race horse compared to a dog, it would be similar to putting a Newfie's body on a Saluki's legs.

Think mine is still in his field!! lol
My OH won £250, jammy git!

>have I ever to see a horse having jumped it's boundary fence and most of those are no height at all.    

One possible reason is that many horses and ponies are kept in solitary confinement, rather than the natural herd state. Another reason is that their running instinct hasn't been triggered - you put a dog (natural predator of the horse) into the paddock and the calm grazing will cease! Horses as a species will run when the appropriate trigger is applied; thoroughbreds have, through hundreds of years of selective breeding, and individual training, will run, just as collies, through hundreds of years of selective breeding, will herd, or labradors, through hundreds of years etc etc will carry objects. To prevent them doing so can cause quite severe mental problems (which is why collies aren't always the best pets!).

I've never taught my dogs to jump, although I know full well that dogs can jump easily. But it means I can have a three-foot high boundary fence to my garden and I know that my dogs won't jump it, even though they're physically capable of it. Racehorses are trained to run with the trigger of the environment, just as dogs are trained for different behaviour when wearing their show collar and lead as opposed to the walk collar and lead.

>bone to body mass proportions of a race horse compared to a dog, it would be similar to putting a Newfie's body on a Saluki's legs.

That's why it's Salukis that run fast and Newfies don't, just as thoroughbreds run fast and shire horses don't. They're both species that have many varieties due to Man's manipulation and breeding.

But a Saluki is very finely made all through having sleek lines, the rib & chest shape alone is far different to a horse's proportions.

Most horses around here are kept in groups not solitary.

>a Saluki is very finely made all through having sleek lines, the rib & chest shape alone is far different to a horse's proportions.

What climatic conditions and terrain was the Saluki designed to run on? (I'm not an expert on the breed.)

>Most horses around here are kept in groups not solitary.

But are they trained racehorses?

> What climatic conditions and terrain was the Saluki designed to run on? (I'm not an expert on the breed.)
>
>

Probably the same conditions Arabian horses were designed to run on?     Yet I see no bodily similarities.

>Probably the same conditions Arabian horses were designed to run on?     Yet I see no bodily similarities.

Mountainous or desert? If desert, it's the same conditions that camels were designed for, and I see no bodily similarities there either!

I cannot see a sighthound bred to hunt & course fast game being of any use in mountains?

A camel was not bred to be a speed merchant.

Mountain gazelle?

The Mountain gazelle also lives in coastal plains of the Arabian peninsula where it will be more easily seen and hunted.

We're going off on a tangent here. A canine (predator) is a different species and has a different purpose to its prey. The Gazelle hound (Saluki) is a different shape to the gazelle. The gazelle, likewise the horse, is the prey species. Gazelle run in a different manner to horses.

A collie is a different shape to a sheep, but both have had their body shapes adapted for Man's purpose. (Sheep breeds have been adapted to either produce wool of various lengths, or meat in different proportions to wild ovines - more muscle on the rear quarters is what's wanted from a meat sheep.)

> Yes, it's a dangerous sport. But it's not making horses do anything that nature (or God, depending on your point of view) designed them to do.

That argument might be applied to dog fighting too (dangerous, dog may die or be injured, but man has harnessed their natural inclination and encouraged it)
Personally in both cases I think the animal's natural inclination is being used in a way which is cruel.  The odds of a horse being fatally injured in this race, in my opinion, make it impossible to gain any enjoyment from.   

>That argument might be applied to dog fighting too

Not really - in dog fighting, the whole purpose is for dogs to be injured or killed. That's not the point of horse racing. Quite the opposite - horses are trained to jump as efficiently as possible, in order to avoid injury.

It may not be 'the point' but in my opinion the chances of it happening are far too high in a race such as this to make it humane.

> Horses naturally run and jump over things - film of wild horses shows them doing just that; and yes, sometimes they fall and injure or kill themselves. They are a herd animal, and running with the herd is instinctive, which is why loose horses continue to race.
>> Yes, it's a dangerous sport. But it's not making horses do anything that nature (or God, depending on your point of view) designed them to do.

I agree with you that it is natural for a horse to run and jump over things but IMO the horses are overfaced with the hight and spread of the fences as they are man made and not natural.The jockeys make the horses go in the direction they want them to and place them at the fences therefor it has to jump. Loose horses mostly continue to run but will avoid jumping the fences if they can.

I hate the GN and do not generally watch or bet on that race. The only thing I like about it is when the rider falls ( hopefully unhurt ) and the horse continues to run the race. They can then decide for themselves whether they want to jump the fences or not .Then the horses look as if they enjoy themselves.

I also think that some of the cross country courses like Badmington have fences that are a bit much too but thats another topic !!

> But are they trained racehorses?

That does seem to contradict the notion that they will happily do this by nature if they have to be trained.  I think a horse may jump something dauntingly high to escape a predator but I am still sceptical that it would do it for the joy of it.

>The horses are at the peek of fitness and get the best possible food and treatment and have happy life.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/horse/ALL///AIGNS/horse/ALL///

"Mel in Blue, the 200-1 outsider, had not raced for 347 days and in his last two races - in March and April 2008 - he was unable to complete the course. His chances of survival in today's crowded race were not improved by having an amateur jockey on his back or that he was forced to carry 12 stone, the same weight as the winning horse.

"Mel in Blue was not so fortunate at Becher's Brook, where he fell heavily and was seen lying flat out on the ground and kicking - a sign that either his neck or back had been broken."

"Exotic Dancer, riding in the 3-mile Totesport Bowl Chase, managed to finish second after being pushed hard for about half the race. Back in the stables, he suffered a fatal heart attack."

"There were fears that Aintree's first day would also claim the life of Denman, whose star status eclipses that of Exotic Dancer. He was riding in the Totesport Chase alongside Exotic Dancer when he fell heavily at the second to last fence. The nine-year-old, who suffers with heart problems..."

"Just 17 of the 40 Thoroughbreds entered into the four-and-a-half mile Grand National finished the race. Hear The Echo collapsed in the run-in and, despite oxygen being administered, he died. Butler's Cabin also collapsed and required oxygen. At several other races he has had to be revived in this way."

Peek of fitness? Best possible treatment?

Have a "flutter" on this? (WARNING - video may be upsetting to some). Think I'll pass.

Is this from todays GN Zarah  ? as I would not have a clue what horses were running.

If it is I hate the race even more !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank goodness my 2 girlies are safe and well in there comfy stables tonight !!

Not all horses die at the jump - one was unwell at the end of the race and died of a heart attack back in it's stable . If this horse was fit and well why did it die ?
This is not my idea of fun .

I grew up watching Red Rum running in the sea and on the beach with his pals - tail and mane in the air enjoying himself - that's how i want to see a horse . Not being forced to run for money .

>one was unwell at the end of the race and died of a heart attack back in it's stable

People die running marathons, or collapse and die playing football, even if there were no prior signs of their being unwell. Exertion can have unexpected andundesired effects on even the fittest athlete.

>I grew up watching Red Rum running in the sea and on the beach with his pals - tail and mane in the air enjoying himself

And the sight of him doing his annual parade of glory along the run in after his retirement, with his ears pricked, tail high, and dancing, he was clearly loving every moment of being there. The experience of running the National five (? I think) times was obviously something he'd thoroughly enjoyed.