My bitches breeder has asked me to have a litter from her. She did keep one of my girls litter sisters but for various reasons she is unable to continue her lines from her.
She would want one or maybe 2 from her if she did have a litter and has a waiting list for homes from her lines so that wouldnt be an issue.
Ive told her breeder that i will have a think about it and get back to her- but I am really unsure as to what to do...and if she did have a litter I would want to keep one- but dont know whether that is too much for me. And obviously there is the risk to my girl....I really dont know what to do... any help appreciated

please :D

I can understand your dilema, I think what you have to do is breed for you and only for you, not for anyone else or their wants and needs, it's your bitch, your risk, they will be your pups.

Your girls breeder will basically be as with many of us someone on the waiting list, top of the waiting list albeit, she's going to want first choice if you are breeding specifically for this reason of continuing with her line, will you be using one of her studs or one recommended by her, or your own? Stud fees or pup exchange would also need careful consideration, you would need to be very clear about who gets first refusal and as you are breeding as part of this breeding programme don't feel pressured into keeping a pup yourself if you feel it too much you are still breeding for the right reasons. :-)

I can understand the breeders dilema in wanting to continue her line, she will obviously be a good mentor for you and you know you have us too :-) sounds as though you would have a waiting list ready too. But ultimately, if you had no intention of going down the breeding route, don't be badgered into it, if you don't feel ready for doing this. Unfortunately it's one of those questions that can only be down to you and you alone, your trust in your girls breeder and the ultimate risk to your girl and time and effort you will need to put in.

What your girls breeder is asking isn't unusual, however she is dropping you in it, you've not been prepared for this at all have you, no wonder you are confused over what to do, if you go for it make sure the breeder covers you from top to bottom and will be there to help you out from start to finish, but only go into breeding if it is something that you want to do.

I have done this for my foundation breeder, it's entirely up to you, but if you decide to go for it, you have us for support too. :-) If not don't feel guilty about it, it's your girl and your choice alone.

Thankyou, that was very helpful :-)

My girls breeder has sort of sprung it on me yes, I had been thinking about whether or not to have a litter from her myself but to be honest was putting it off until I had to make the decision! (It will be the first litter I have bred)
I trust her breeder 100% she has over 30 years experience with my breed so would help me every step of the way. Im not sure which stud we would use as yet as we havnt really discussed it in great detail- she just phoned yesterday to ask me to consider it. But I know the stud that she used on my bitches litter sister (She sadly aggressively rejected her small litter and they died)was brother to my male.

I suppose the two things are putting me off are that I am not sure whether I can commit to taking on another dog/pup from the litter at the moment (dont know whether i could watch all the pups go!!)and also the fact that her what happened to her sister-makes me wonder whether that is likely to happen to my bitch-especially as they are related...

I think if you have reservations then I would say no. It is a big commitment and unless you are 100% on board I would not risk it.

it sounds like some of the worries of deciding to breed (the experience required, a good strong waiting list etc) are less in this case but its still a big big decision. i think it boils down to in your heart of hearts do you want to?

other things to consider, has your bitch had/passed all relevent health tests, if the possibility of a pup is unsuitable for you now will it be better in future and as such can you wait? (i.e. how old is your bitch and how often does she have seasons)

She has good results for all the relevant health tests for her breed. She is 2 1/2 and has seasons every 6 months. The likelyhood being that she would be mated in december by which time she would be 3yrs 3months.
Ive spoke to her breeder this morning- she is being very nice-doesnt want me to feel like im being pushed into it and that its my decision but that said she is still very keen as this is a very successful line. I do think the only way I will breed her is if I decide that I will keep a pup. I'll ahve to think hard on that one as I wont go into this lightly.

well you've plenty of time to weigh they pro's and cons at least without having to rush into health tests etc.

best of luck with the decision.

I would agree, don't agree unless you are truly happy about it. I have been in a similar position, and went along with things - convinced myself it would all work out - but when the mating didn't work out I was so relieved, and decided to get her spayed to prevent further discussion of the matter! I realised that however nice the pups may have been I really did not want to become a breeder and am so glad not to have that responsibility . So do make sure it is really what you want for yourself, and for your girl.

You have a lot of time to come to a decision but what happens if there is only 1 puppy or there are no bitch puppies? Would her breeder take a dog puppy? would you be prepared to let an only pup go to her? I can understand that it is very flattering to be asked and you obviously get on well with this breeder but unless you come to the conclusion that you want to breed for yourself then I would give it a wide berth.

Hi Qwerty

Could I perhaps give you another thought? I asked one of my puppy buyers to do this for me some years ago. She had a lovely bitch that I had bred. I chose the stud dog, she paid the stud fee and sold the puppies. I bought a puppy from her. She would love to have kept a pup but already had 2 other youngish bitches and decided that the time wasn't right for her to keep one. She very kindly agreed to do this for me and it has given her a great deal of pleasure over the years. Now she has a young bitch going back to her bitch. She saw the dog she bred that I had win best dog at Crufts - a very proud moment for both of us :) And all these years later, I am still so grateful that she did this for me.

Hi, we have come to a agreement over the situation. My girl is going to be bred from her season in december. We are going to use my boy as a stud as he complements her well. She will purchase at least one pup from her- preferably a bitch but if not she will continue her line with a dog-or possibly both. I will wait until nearer the time to decide whether I will keep one or not- but it is most likely I will.
I will take full responsibility over vets fees etc as I will be selling the puppies(through my breeder )
Weve had a good long chat about it and are also going to have a contract made up to safeguard us both. I am happy with the situation and look forward to seeing her lines continue.
Thankyou everyone for your advice.

As long as you are happy with the situation then that is all that matters. I hope it all goes well in December

Make sure that everything is signed and in writing before you do anything!

Pleased that you have come to an agreement your girls breeder must be elated, and everything seems to be being done properly with paperwork as expected.

The only thing I would like to point out is as this is your first litter you probably won't be prepared for the emotional side and bonding you will have with these pups, (especially if wishing to keep one yourself) when breeding for yourself it is easy as you automatically get pick of the litter, but when breeding for someone else and line continuation you are going to need to keep your emotions in check, the moment the pups are born instead of thinking of your choice (infact I would not even think of it) you need to divert your attentions to which pup/s are going to be for your breeder, otherwise you may find it hard to let your 'favourite' pup/s go and end up all teary as you wanted that one.

So, as long as you prepare yourself mentally for that scenario too, otherwise all should run very smoothly and your doing a great service to the line. :-)

Good luck and looking forward to hearing next year how everything is going. :-)

An alternative that a Friend of mine dealt with whose bitches had Pyometra was to do a loan of bitch agreement, they had the bitch come to live with them as soon as she was confirmed in whelp at 30 days after mating.

The breeder then has the expense of rearing the litter and the owner gets a puppy as their Fee for lending the bitches services, a bit like a stud fee.

I had a loan of bitch agreement with my 'F' litter.  Situation was that a long time exhibitor wanted a puppy from their bitch, but due to ill health of wife and work commitments was unable to rear a litter themselves.  the breeder suggested I might like to help them out.

Originally they were to have pick of litter, but in the event the health issues they had prevented them from having a puppy so I paid them the price of a pup for their fee.

The litter was not a waste as one of the pups became a champion, and two of the bitches became foundations for two new exhibitor/breeders.  Mine is a numerically small breed needing well bred litters to be bred to keep the gene pool going.

Hi, we have come to a agreement over the situation. My girl is going to be bred from her season in december. We are going to use my boy as a stud as he complements her well. She will purchase at least one pup from her- preferably a bitch but if not she will continue her line with a dog-or possibly both. I will wait until nearer the time to decide whether I will keep one or not- but it is most likely I will.
I will take full responsibility over vets fees etc as I will be selling the puppies(through my breeder )
Weve had a good long chat about it and are also going to have a contract made up to safeguard us both. I am happy with the situation and look forward to seeing her lines continue.
Thankyou everyone for your advice.

Hi Qwerty,

Just wanted to ask (as a precaution for yourself), if the terms are as above why would you need to draw up a contract?  The bitch is yours, the stud will be yours and the puppies will be yours. You are merely having a litter and selling her a puppy or two if they are available. 

Thankyou for that. The possibility of my bitch going to her breeders was mentioned but it was decided it would cause more harm than good. She is extremely attached to me and vice versa so I think it would turn into a stressful situation for both of us if done like that.

Were drawing up a contract over vet fees etc as without her asking it is most likely that I will not have had a litter from her. It will also state that she gets pick of the litter (either one or two). It will also say that we must be in agreement over future homes for the pups etc.

Hi qwerty ive read though this and was just wondering ??? so you will both half the cost of any vets fee's ?? both find good homes ?? breeder will get pick of 1...2..pups ?? will she pay for the pups or does she get them for free ?? does your breed have big litters??

xx:)

Qwerty,

I personally would let this agreement go on the basis of trust.  At this time there is no reason whatsoever for you to enter into any contract.  None of what you have mention justifies drawing a contract up.

You have to sometimes think of the bigger picture and think of any possible whelping problems.  Just for example. Say you only had 2 pups and there was a problem with the mother, you had to hand rear two pups and spend so much time with them. Perhaps addition time of work for family members etc you just don't know you may suddently decide to keep one and let her have the other. There are so many senarios.

I just don't see any reason whatsoever to you drawing up a contract that could have any benefits to you.   There is no reason for vet fees etc you are full owner of both dogs and are payiing the vet fees, it is really legally nothing to do with the breeder.  You offering pups  to her is just what a lot of people do with breeder freinds, mentors etc.  The fact you may not have had a litter is really irrelevant.

I would advise not to do draw up any contract, legally your freind has no more right to a puppy than any pet person. Yes morally she will due to the relationship and agreement but to be safe I would just leave it as that a verbal agreement.  :-)

Not trying to confuse you just give you advice. :-)

blue i was thinking the same thing !! thats why i ask the questions...that side of things would worry me to much ,i also think a contract may not be such a great idea ,just a verbal as if only 2 pups and all the problems blue as said you could end up paying half vets bills and the breeder take the 2 pups ...for me i would be heart broken and wouldnt be able to let them go anywhere , id have to keep them both ,,,just my op , i canrt help but get to attached to the pups :) xx

all the problems blue as said you could end up paying half vets bills and the breeder take the 2 pups ...  Hi White Lilly :-)   Qwerty is taking FULL responsibility of ALL vet bills.

Quoted from her post..I will take full responsibility over vets fees etc

sorry blue ive miss read what she put , i remember reading that now :) lack of sleep :( xx

My breed does tend to have large litter and all immediate relatives of my bitch that have bred have produced 12 or more pups.
I just thought the contract was the best thing to do- as I said before to safeguard us BOTH. As she is lifting endorsements so as to breed this litter I can understand her wanting to guaruntee herself a pup.

Hi qwerty :) i dont understand about the safeguard for yourself ?? has you are paying everything !!! its your girl and its your boy for stud!! ,the only 1 that needs a safeguard is your breeder to make sure she gets 1 or 2 dogs off you !! and she will have to lift endorsements for the pups to reg ...are you giving her the pup/s or is she paying you for them ..

the only winner here is your breeder , (just how i see it ) as you said at the start you wasnt going to breed with her !!

joanne xx

Sorry white lilly but you must not have read or known someone where agreements that have looked good have never worked out.  I would sign and agreement before doing anything these days, after being fooled once I will never do it again with a supposed friend.  OK qwerty owns the parents but still for both parties the best thing is to put everything in writing so that everyone knows where they are.

From what I have read you are doing this the best way IMO.  Your having a litter and lettign the breeder of your bitch buy one, just like any other puppy buyer :)

As for her putting names forward, well this I would only expect froma good breeder if she asked for you to have the litter or not :)  What will happen if you sell the other puppies to other people not coming though your breeder and what if you don't like people your breeder recommends?  Just something to think about :)

thats something we would put in writing- that we both agree on the prospective new homes.
I just feel that if everything is in writing there can be no bad consequences and if we have a disagreement it is all down in writing.
Even if the only one to benefit from the agreement is the breeder then so be it- at least it will put our minds at rest.

Even if I cant have a pup from her litter her lines will continue and I would have one at a later date from her breeder.

and she will have to lift endorsements for the pups to reg
I dont undestand your point here? (sorry !! :-) )

We are yet to discuss cost of pups but yes she will be paying for them(and possibly more) Im going to see her on sunday so we can draft everything up on paper and minds!

Qwerty, who owns the stud dog, and who owns the bitch?

sorry I havent read through every post.. but If you own the bitch.. and I think I read somewhere, its your own dog you are using.. then your breeder legally has absolutely nothing to do with your pups..

If this is the case.. then this is a very good reason to NOT sign a contract..

You are however, being very kind in allowing your girl to have this litter, to safeguard a line.. but thats all..

I would never enter into a contract under these conditions..

hi qwerty when i read this """ As she is lifting endorsements so as to breed this litter I can understand her wanting to guaruntee herself a pup. """" i was refering to that :) ..i can understand a agreement for that as ive done the same with my breeder and we used a stud from him keeping the lines going , i just didnt understand the rest of it because you are covering all costs for everything thats all :) ..sorry i carnt explan to well ,my spelling lets me down :) if you dont get me not to worry im not being funny ,im just very intersted how your doing this thats all ,i could be faced with it 1 day .

thanku :) xx

Hi Qwerty,

I have offered advise as best I can but this is perfect example of how someone puts themself in a situation to be abused.

Re the endorsements, if you are good enough to breed a litter where the breed will receive a puppy then that should be enough. Once these endorsements are lifted the breeder cannot put them back on.

Can I ask who suggested a contract?   BTW from a legal point of view most of what you will be agreeing in this contract has little weight anyway.

I find the fact the breeder either wants to or is happy to enter into an agreement a little worrying to be honest.

She suggested the contract. why is it worrying?

She suggested the contract. why is it worrying? That is what I thought and expected.

The breeder wants you to enter into an agreement that you will use "your" bitch on "your" dog and that "you" will pay all expenses and she can have pick or picks of the litter..( even paying for them she has had no hassle whatsoever and picks of a litter)

Hands up here who would love that offer?  no disrespect to you or the breeder but a contract is 100% not needed here.  Trust is is all.

I am sorry but if she trusts you to have bought the bitch and trusts your capabilities to whelp the litter then she has to trust you that you will let her have a puppy or two if they are available.

This contract would serve no benefit to you whatsoever.

Do you have a partner ? perhaps they can think it through being slightly outside the direct situation?  I just think you seem to be missing what is as good as staring you in the face.  I 100% don't mean that to offend you.

I am in no way saying do not follow through on the agreement , I certainly would if I agreed it but it can all be done on trust. As it should be.    Anything could go wrong with this planned litter.

I have had a few agreements with dog people, all worked out perfectly BUT both parties at both ends have to trust each other.

Your bitch, your dog, your pups, your expenses.. I am sorry, but how on earth does she even come into the equasion.. let alone have the audacity to ask for a contract..

I am sorry.. but I would rather leave the restrictions in place, and never have a litter, than enter into a contract like this..

it does all seem rather one sided. I will lift the restrictions as long as you use your bitch, your dog, your expenses at the vets, your resonsible for rehoming any extra puppies and she gets pick of litter??

I do see what you mean. I just want to do things properly. Im meeting her on sunday so will have a think about it before then.

I do have a partner(not remotely interested in dogs lol)

thanks for the advise

I do have a partner(not remotely interested in dogs lol)  That is a good thing as they can often see the "craziness" that we can't :-)

Personally I don't know why some are getting in such a flap over this breeding and a perspective contract,

Qwerty is a first time breeder - she has a good relationship with her bitches breeder who wishes her to help in continuing the line, yes, it's qwerty's dog and bitch and will be her pups, but she needs some back up here, she will get it from her breeder, she also needs to feel safe and secure that her breeder will not back out last minute leaving her with all the pups, and no good referred homes on offer and possible vet bills up to the hilt.

This isn't a normal breeding, it's being done for the purpose of producing pups solely for this breeder, both parties need the security of a contract for this, plenty of us have been stung by trust alone. 

To be honest qwerty, if you do not have breeders insurance, as normal insurance does not cover breeding problems if anything goes wrong it could run from anything from £300-£1,500+ I feel that as this breeding is solely for your breeders purposes that any vets bills should be split between you and your breeder, (my foundation breeder even offered to pay all vet bills for the Dam and pups the very first time I bred) leaving you one less thing to worry about. I also think that if per say the litter does not bring forward any dogs or bitches she likes that she should still offer the waiting list, and help you to find suitable homes, and of course for her benefit that she gets pick of the litter of up to 2 dogs.

At the moment you are good friends, but you have to prepare yourself for if anything goes wrong, both parties are completely covered this way and a happy, worry free breeding 'programme' can go ahead.

This can not be thought of as a normal breeding.

> if you do not have breeders insurance, as normal insurance does not cover breeding problems if anything goes wrong it could run from anything from £300-£1,500+ I feel that as this breeding is solely for your breeders purposes that any vets bills should be split between you and your breeder

The KC offers an insurance specifically for breeding.

Personally I don't know why some are getting in such a flap over this breeding and a perspective contract Not sure who is in a flap in the thread  :-) I just see experienced people giving an other side to any possibilities.

Qwerty is a first time breeder - she has a good relationship with her bitches breeder who wishes her to help in continuing the line, yes, it's qwerty's dog and bitch and will be her pups, but she needs some back up here, she will get it from her breeder, she also needs to feel safe and secure that her breeder will not back out last minute leaving her with all the pups, and no good referred homes on offer and possible vet bills up to the hilt.

  And would this not be done by any good mentor without the novice breeder being tied into a contact?  The breeder could still do this without a contract in place. So the benefit of this contact to the novice is that the breeder will help sell the pups, even with a contract you cannot MAKE someone help sell puppies. 

This isn't a normal breeding, it's being done for the purpose of producing pups solely for this breeder,

Your right this litter is solely for the benefit of the breeder so I personally would like to see her taking more responsibility.  In fact I would imagine most would have wanted to whelp the litter, take all the responsibility and sell the puppies. Perhaps spliting any proceeds.. etc

What security is she going to gain from this contract.  The only Sting she could face is by entering a contract that is completely one sided.

I have definately said enough on this one :-) :-) 

Fingers crossed it all goes plain sailing and there are some nice puppies as a result.

Some interesting points raised there, Blue.

Can I just say - as a breeder who asked a lady to do this for me with a bitch that I'd bred, neither of us felt any need for a contract. Like Blue has said, I can't see that there's any point in this particular instance.

I had planned to be there to help to whelp the bitch but didn't manage to be there in the end. However, another friend was close at hand if needed. I found homes for all the puppies but I certainly didn't ask for any recompense for this. If the breeder hadn't been happy with any of the homes, she could have just said no to the potential buyers.  I just wanted the opportunity to buy something back from my line.

Can I be nosey and ask if the breeder wants the pups (fingers crossed) registered under her affix?

> Can I be nosey and ask if the breeder wants the pups (fingers crossed) registered under her affix?

is that possible if the dogs are in the o.p's name and not the breeder?

They wont be registered under her affix.
Im not going to say anymore until I speak to her breeder properly on sunday

> Im not going to say anymore until I speak to her breeder properly on sunday

i hope you dont think anyone on here is getting at you, i think they are just pointing out the pitfalls of such a arrangement. Whatever you decide i hope its what you want and your litter is succesful

Hi Qwerty

I hope you don't think that our posts have been getting at you in any way. I have just pointed out my experiences. It has been an interesting discussion - but only you know what's right for you.

I wish you the best of luck - whatever you decide to do and however you decide to do it :)

Hi, no I dont think anyone was getting at me. I just want to wait until Ive spoke to my breeder properly and I know exactly what she wants in her mind and then I can put the facts to the people on here :-)
I dont want to keep explaining things that I dont know are 100% yet thats all.
Thankyou everyone for their advice

Do you show or work your dogs qwerty?
only asking because as you stated  >>They wont be registered under her affix<<
I'm assuming you have your own?

I do work my dogs but dont have an affix