Is there such a thing? A friend of mine is getting one, i've seen a picture of the litter, and she said its something to do with a recessive gene, its very rare etc. I've never herad of it and i just wondered how often it happens? I think the mother was black, don't know about the father.

"The Flat-coat's colour is either solid black or solid liver (a deep, rich brown), more commonly the former. Occurring rarely is a coat colour of solid yellow, but this is a disqualification under the breed standard. It does not mean the dog is unhealthy, just not the accepted standard for conformation showing. However, the yellow and even rarer cream coloured dogs can compete in field and obedience trials." (Wikipedia)

It seems they do exist but they are very rare...Would love to see one tho :)

Ooooh yea. Me too :o)

might be cynical but I wonder how much over the average price that four-letter word R*** cost her
Chris

it yellow not cream

the cost should be the same as the black and liver.
both the dam and sire both have to carrie the yellow gene to get a yellow

insterting whos the parenets of this little yellow fcr.

Basically, it's a non-standard colour. That won't stop it being a lovely pet - but will mean it can't be shown and most certainly shouldn't be bred from. I don't know what the norm is in flatcoats, but in RRs the mismarked ones tend to be sold at a lower price.

I do hope it's an ethical breeder who has been straight with your friend about this and isn't charging her an over the top price because it's "rare".

i find nothing more annoying than seeing 'Rare' puppies being advertised at a more expensive price than a correct example of its breed, when they are just 'incorrect' and the unknowing and dare i say gullable joe public think they have found something wonderful, hand over ridiculous sums of money and then brag to everyone about their 'Rare' puppy...very annoying!

I see an advert last week for puppies of my breed being advertised because they had 'Rare blue eyes'!!!! Wonder what they will come up with when at about 8-10 weeks the new owners discover their rare puppy has lost its 'unusual' blues eyes... Oh dear some people!

All Golden Retrievers are descendents of a yellow Flat Coated Retriever (called a Wavy Coated Retriever in those days) called Nous.

I don't know what the protocol is but in my breed I know that I definitely sold my "mismarked" pups a lot cheaper than the others.

Ha breeders sound like they have never had a litter before when they are all born with blue eyes lol!

What really does my head in though is blue stafford breeders selling them for £850 a pop, when the blue isnt really acceptable at the shows and they are not even standard dogs, coming nearly to 20" at the shoulder looking more whippity. But i think now there are more blues than other colours being bred now. I think it would be rare to find a good staff breeder, with show potential standard colours!!!

Now that Kaynine is really interesting, and was something I didn't know. So we have today a wonderful breed that is descended from a dog that nowadays wouldn't have been bred from. What a loss that would have been to the dog world.

> What really does my head in though is blue stafford breeders selling them for £850 a pop, when the blue isnt really acceptable at the shows

Sorry Louise you are wrong Blue in a staff is to standard and can be shown as blue is listed as one of the acceptable colours, I don't know where these ideas come from.

> Sorry Louise you are wrong Blue in a staff is to standard and can be shown as blue is listed as one of the acceptable colours, I don't know where these ideas come from.

i was about to say... personally i think the blue is lovely.

i was told told that goldens were put into flatcoats way back i suppose when the gene pool was very small. i know occasionally whites will pop up but have never seen one.

Well its acceptable but not desirable, thats why its not commonly bred for the show ring. Blue is lovely but not when its exploited as rare.

the standard says blue is fine

"Coat
Smooth, short and close.
Colour
Red, fawn, white, black or blue, or any one of these colours with white. Any shade of brindle or any shade of brindle with white. Black and tan or liver colour highly undesirable."

Why is it not desirable, it is an accepted colour so if it is not desirable it must just be a fashion fad. The only colours that are undesirable in the show ring are Black & Tan or Liver.

> Why is it not desirable, it is an accepted colour so if it is not desirable it must just be a fashion fad

possibly louise means they win less often- similar to the taste for flashy boxers. correspondingly though if less are shown less will win...

Louise, who says its not desirable?  

> possibly louise means they win less often

May be but that is not what was said. Some judges prefer the look of some colours more than others but few judges judge on colour alone, if they did they would soon get single colour entries and the breed clubs would not be best pleased.

Teri is absolutely right it is a yellow flatcoat not a cream and if they are advertising this litter they should stress that yellow is a non standard colour, most FCR owners will not issue the KC papers with these dogs incase anyone might think of breeding from them. If KC papers are passed over the papers will be endorsed not for competition, not for export and definately progeny not to be registered. The cost of a yellow varies between same as a black or liver flatcoat or slightly less. Yellows are not rare, a quick surf of the internet and you will find any number of them.

Who is selling this yellow puppy? Like Teri I would like to know so that we can see if it is a regular responsible breeder or if a novice breeder, if the latter the stud dog owner might be interested to talk to them about endorsing the pups pedigree and explaining that the pup is a yellow not a cream.

One interesting thing in the breed which occurs from time to time is a pup will be born with a silver or grey coat, but when it changes from the puppy coat to the adult coat the adult coat comes through as black.

my blue was born like a badger silver highlights  by the time she was 16 weeek and the puppy coat drop she had a lovley black coat.

then my friend had total silver puppie bye 6 monhs black.

but one pup i heard of before christmas was born black turn liver over the weeks then turn back to black she was DNA colour as well.

I don't know who the breeders are unfortunatly, but i do know my friend is very sensible when it comes to dogs, she works for a well known veterianry behaviourist who also has the breed, so i would imagine she wouldn't be fooled by a high price tag.

I just don't see the point in going for a yellow flatcoat, people will just think it is a lab cross, your friend will spend her life having people thinking she has a cross, or she may as well just go for a GR.

If she is buying a flatcoat the black and liver are beautiful, I would want to show mine off, not have people thinking I had a strange looking Lab or GR. :-D

> your friend will spend her life having people thinking she has a cross, or she may as well just go for a GR.
>

perhaps she just likes the look of the dog and isnt that bothered what people think? also not that i agree with cross breeds (only because of health etc..)
having one isnt a bad thing, sounds like that is what you are saying although i suspect you may not have meant it like that.

And just because you have a pedigree od "breed standard" the general public dont necassarily know what breeds are.
All i hear is oh look at that dalmation !!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL! Mahonc, don't you know the Public are always right?  You have been conned by your breeder into buying an oversized dalmation obviously :-)

I'm lucky that mine can't really be mistaken for anything else really - although I once had someone say what nice hungarian puli I had :-0  They had a haircut the very next day lol.

> You have been conned by your breeder into buying an oversized dalmation obviously :-)
>
>

i have said that to a few people.....

> although I once had someone say what nice hungarian puli I had

i quite like these although i must say i have never seen one in the flesh..
are there many out there in the uk??

I just don't see the point in going for a yellow flatcoat, people will just think it is a lab cross, your friend will spend her life having people thinking she has a cross, or she may as well just go for a GR.

If she is buying a flatcoat the black and liver are beautiful, I would want to show mine off, not have people thinking I had a strange looking Lab or GR.

Personally, I couldn't care less what people think about our dogs. If I wanted a yellow flatcoat, I'd get a yellow flatcoat regardless of what other people think! I get a dog because I like it, not because other people should recognise it as a certain breed or because I want to show it off...  If I wanted people to recognise my breeds, I would have had to get some very different ones to the ones I have as most people haven't got the foggiest idea about any of our dogs...

As a flatcoat owner I think I would be right is saying that most flatcoat people do not have a problem with yellows, and certainly I'd rather have a healthy yellow than a sickly liver or black. That said no sensible or for that matter responsible and experienced breeder would ever describe a yellow as rare, and that is the worrying thing about this. I would venture to say that as the pup was descrisbed as a 'cream' not a yellow, it sounds as though the breeder is in fact a novice possibly first time breeder.

I know of quite a few breeders who have produced yellow puppies and they have kept them themselves. The yellow flatcoat looks like a lighter built and finer version of a golden retriever. I know many working goldens are now a lot lighter in build and finer in construction, so it would be easy to mix the two breeds, which is the main reason that we do not want a yellow gaining an undeserved 'status' because it is being described as a 'rare' yellow or cream, thus leading to a number of crosses between the two breeds producing unregistered puppies who are bred for money by BYBs.

I hope your friend enjoys her yellow puppy, regardless of colour, the flatcoat is a lovely dog to own and very clever, so your friend will need to keep her puppy entertained both mentally as well as taking care of it's exercise needs.

i quite like these although i must say i have never seen one in the flesh..
are there many out there in the uk??

There isn`t many Hungarian Pulis about, I know someone who is about to go out to Hungary to see a litter because there are none in the UK at the mo.

I have a Komondor and people ask me if he`s a labradoodle or a poodle cross, God knows what people will think he is when he starts to cord! An uncared for Old English probably lol.
Oh the joy of owning something different lol.

from your pic he looks like an Afghan puppy !!

> from your pic he looks like an Afghan puppy !! <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

where is the piccy?

the avatar.

sorry very confused. bit slow today. who's avatar the o.p doesnt have one

>who's avatar the o.p doesnt have one

ClaireyS means Lisakom's avatar (of her Komondor) not the OP.

sorry thought she meant about the cream flatcoat! ah the komondor strange but very attractive dog indeed

sorry to confuse :)

> sorry to confuse :-)

very very easily done

Some interesting notes here with a couple of pictures of yellow flatcoat puppy
Follow the links for Luka and Mr Read Flowers article

they just look like golden retrievers to me.

The head shape in the adult dog (luka link) is significantly different and the body shape is too

>they just look like golden retrievers to me.<

> The head shape in the adult dog (luka link) is significantly different and the body shape is too

Now you can see why we do not need a commonly seen colour getting the reputation of being rare, and how easy it would be to breed the two breeds in order to get a cross bred dog. The eye problems from the combined breeds this mix would have is horrendous, and I do expect anyone breeding a cross between the two would be bothered about eye testing or any other health test! All they would be worried about would be the money these "rare" puppies could be sold for.

is it being sold as rare though? has that been said? if so well that is very wrong but if its just a litter that hasnt been thought out correctly (yes it should have been thought out but isnt always) and is just being sold as a pet i cant see the problem. maybe they just like that particular dog and as long as they are very aware that the dog and bitch has or has not been tested then surely there is no prolem? surely it would only be like me selling a merle as a pet and saying it will make a great pet, but you cant breed or show it?

actually just re read i know the o.p states its rare but it doesnt state its being sold as rare?

> Some interesting notes [url=http://randomfire.fierymill.net/archives/2006/03/23/why-a-yellow-flatcoated-retriever/" rel=nofollow]here[/url] with a couple of pictures of yellow flatcoat puppy
>

Just had a little nosey at the pics................do Finnish hip index correspond to our hip scores   because if they do........... ?
Chris

I wondered that too! Must be a different index surely - not that they should be breeding from him anyway - but they do seem to show him in Finland :-o

Just to clarify something - Polly said - ''If KC papers are passed over the papers will be endorsed not for competition, not for export and definitely progeny not to be registered.''

The only essential endorsement on a yellow flatcoat is 'progeny not to be registered'.    It's not possible, not even acceptable, to register yellows as 'not for competition'.   Yellow flatcoats have, fairly recently, worked in working tests with success, and there is absolutely no reason that they shouldn't be fantastic obedience, agility or tracking dogs.  

There is really no reason, given a bone fide owner, that they shouldn't be exported if the owner goes abroad, although it's sensible to endorse all pups regardless of colour with R and X.

We may even find that they carry a valuable gene which could help the breed in the future.     Anyhow, they can give their owners a tremendous amount of pleasure.

Incidentally, the genetics in the article quoted aren't strictly accurate - a double recessive ee yellow will actually prevent the expression of BB or Bb black, and also mask bb liver.    It is not carried on the same locus as Black and Liver.

Jo

Finns use letters for hips.
A being the best E the worst.
A and B are acceptable for breeding and many breeds you can breed C to an A and that is seen as ok too and the pups registered.
Not sure what the other hip index is...
could be penny hip(totally spelled incorrectly I think)??

> I see an advert last week for puppies of my breed being advertised because they had 'Rare blue eyes'!!!! Wonder what they will come up with when at about 8-10 weeks the new owners discover their rare puppy has lost its 'unusual' blues eyes... Oh dear some people!

I'm still laughing at that one!  :-)

I've seen my breed advertised as rare with blue eyes too!  Durrr!

When I have sent photos to prospective owners, and they say they want the blue eyed pup, I am always adamant that they won't stay blue.  Cripes, perhaps I could have made a bomb  ;-)  ;-)

> Just to clarify something - Polly said - ''If KC papers are passed over the papers will be endorsed not for competition, not for export and definitely progeny not to be registered.''
>
> The only essential endorsement on a yellow flatcoat is 'progeny not to be registered'.&nbsp; &nbsp; It's not possible, not even acceptable, to register yellows as 'not for competition'.&nbsp;&nbsp; Yellow flatcoats have, fairly recently, worked in working tests with success, and there is absolutely no reason that they shouldn't be fantastic obedience, agility or tracking dogs.&nbsp;&nbsp;
>
> There is really no reason, given a bone fide owner, that they shouldn't be exported if the owner goes abroad, although it's sensible to endorse all pups regardless of colour with R and X.
>
> We may even find that they carry a valuable gene which could help the breed in the future.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Anyhow, they can give their owners a tremendous amount of pleasure.
>
> Incidentally, the genetics in the article quoted aren't strictly accurate - a double recessive ee yellow will actually prevent the expression of BB or Bb black, and also mask bb liver.&nbsp; &nbsp; It is not carried on the same locus as Black and Liver.
>
> Jo

Totally agree Jo, no reason at all why they wouldn't be fantastic at all the things that a flat coat does, after all what difference does the colour of the dog make when working really? (unless they have to blend with the available cover) I was a bit surprised that the dog was being shown though given that the colour is unacceptable in the breed standard ? (says he got third in Junior at an open show)