This is something you have all heard before and ironic after following Sahara's thread. 

Our usual walk is used by many many dogs around here and once in a while my dog will have a little grumble with another.  On going into the field this morning I saw 2 little dogs she had been bossy to before - one on the lead.  I clipped her back on and ran ahead for some space only to see Mr 'I am scared of every dog coming towards me' whose dog is on lead and but doesn't seem to be bothered.  I once again clipped Meg back on the lead to pass nicely. 
Later I saw a man with a GSD keeping him over to one side so I made towards the man with the big black lab who was playing with a ball.  Wishing the man Good morning (blank look in reply) Meg walked past the dog then went back in with a grumble obviously feeling nervous of the other dog.  With that the lab went in with a fury, pinned Meg down on the floor and wouldn't give up until the owner dragged her off.   I was so shocked all I could do was collect my dog, put her back on the lead and check for damage.  He just walked off.

Now please correct me if I am wrong - his dog was aggressive and shouldn't be off the lead - I think the attack was over and above what a normal dog would have done in response to mine.  This is second time in her 4 years this has happened.   This morning's walk was very unusual but the attack topped it all - I didn't say anything to this fellow but I felt wronged.  Perhaps he thought that my dog should be on the lead - but his was off-lead and he seemed unconcerned.   Am I right?   

I understand you've had a bit of a shock but you say Meg went in for a grumble?  Every now and again you're going to come across dogs who will not accept grumbles, especially if they're minding their own business playing with a ball.  In all likelihood unless Meg had grumbled the Lab wouldn't have reacted so no, personally I think it was your responsibility.

> Now please correct me if I am wrong - his dog was aggressive and shouldn't be off the lead
>Meg walked past the dog then went back in with a grumble obviously feeling nervous of the other dog.

I'm sorry as that is shocking to see, but it isn't really aggressive, your dog growled, she got told off for it and I'm betting that there isn't even the slightest puncture wound - no wounds atall. Dogs can't growl at other dogs and expect to have nothing happen to them.

>I think the attack was over and above what a normal dog would have done in response to mine.

It depends on the dog, you said your dog growled because she was nervous, the other dog may have been nervous and when it was growled at decided to get in first before it was bitten, it could have been a nervous reaction, just as your dogs growling was.

Dogs do have their own language and I agree that the lab was expressing it's dislike at being grumbled at, I think that dogs are very clever in weighing up who can be ignored and who needs standing up to and putting in their place aswell, in the case of the dogs they had a run in and unfortunately Meg grumbled first and it was taken as a sign of a threat, dogs are animals and should never be taken for granted at reactions towards one another.

However in the case of the man and yourself, I feel that the man should have apologised to you, even if he did say, well your dog growled at mine first as we have no reason to be impolite to each other, I certainly would apologise if my dog pinned another down with full snarl, although I would also give my dogs defence for doing so.  To simply walk off without a word would have left me feeling upset about it too.

I agree with what has been said above.  If your dog was offlead and had a grumble then she just got a telling off.

If blood was drawn then it went too far and the other dog should not be offlead.  However as I think I read correctly, your dog just got pinned down and no damage was caused?

To me a case of dogs being dogs.  I think we are becoming too wary as dog owners and not letting dogs act how they are supposed to.  I don't mean dogs should be pinning each other down all the time but there are occasions when tellings off occur.

The fact that the other dog had a ball may well have contributed to the situation apart from the fact that your dog grumbled as well. Personally, I try not let my dogs go near other dogs with toys as resource guarding is very common and understandable (I also don't let my dogs play with toys when there are other dogs around). 

Ceejay,

First, I think these situations are so difficult for us all and it is often hard to see what is going on. It's also natural to want to side with our own dog and if another dog goes for them, especially if it is much bigger that brings out our protective instincts.

I note that you say your bitch can be "bossy" with some other dogs. You also say she passed this other dog but then went back in with a grumble. Whatever her motivation for doing that I guess that from the lab's perspective it could seem like "here I am minding my own business with my favourite ball when this dog goes by and then, blow me, she turns round and starts swearing at me for no reason. Well, I wasn't in the mood, plus I figured she had her eye on my ball, so I just really lost it with her, that'll teach her".

Perhaps the other dog's reaction was OTT, perhaps it is very ball protective, but your little girl upped the ante. I tend to agree with the others that given there was no damage it sounds like the Lab decided to teach her a lesson. I would tend to avoid that dog in future.

When you say the lab had her pinned was she nipping at her too or holding her down and glaring/snarling. Some dogs when disciplining another will make a terrible noise and look as though they are attacking, but if you look closer they are holding their mouths open, displaying teeth and just going aaargh, very loudly in the other dog's face, while moving their head fast from side to side. The aim is definitely to intimidate and frighten, without bloodshed.

I feel for you though. If in any doubt avoid other bitch.

I would have expected the other owner to check you and your dog were ok before going off, myself, but I imagine he was as shocked as you were by the incident, and probably just wanted to get home.
I think the other dog was probably upset by your dog growling at it when it was playing with its ball, it might have thought your dog was going to steal the ball.
I hope you and your dog feel better now.

Maybe I'm just lucky with my two GR's but I don't think so!! I think if you socialise your dogs properly from an early age, they learn boundaries and can read other dogs' body language. During our morning and afternoon walks, we come across every shape and size of dog. The only time my male GR ever got pinned down it was by another GR... Being around so many different breeds on a daily basis has made me much more relaxed when out and about. For sure, the more tense you as an owner are about a potential problem occurring the more likely it is going to happen!!!

I suggest you maybe try and find a socialisation class in your area, where a trainer can assess your dog. It sounds like she needs to learn to relax a little, maybe you do too?

I find the best way to avert trouble if there is a little tension, is to walk on by and carry on in your own direction, your dog will happily follow you, if it does not, call him/her and that situation should be averted. It works for me, and my dogs have never been involved in a fight.

I'm sorry this has happened, but at least no blood was spent. The more we spend around dogs, the more we know when they are really being aggressive or just teaching a lesson. As has been said before, maybe the lab owner was a little shocked also, it would have been good if you had said something to each other though... only the dogs know who's fault it was, often us owners get it so wrong!

Thankyou for that - no there was no mark on my dog - lots of gunge and saliva but I haven't found any puncture marks.  You have all summed up what in the depths of my mind I suspected to be the case - just wanted to see it from someone else's perspective.   It is a shame this has happened because we have met hundreds of dogs walking in these fields and just one has felt the need to put her in her place.  We go to agility shows where she is nose to tail with other dogs all day and I see nothing like this happening.  I remained calm and quiet (on the surface that is) and Meg seemed not bothered at all. 

> Maybe I'm just lucky with my two GR's but I don't think so!! I think if you socialise your dogs properly from an early age, they learn boundaries and can read other dogs' body language. During our morning and afternoon walks, we come across every shape and size of dog.

not my boy! from as soon as i got him he was soclialised with my mum and my aunts dogs (all friendly well balanced adults from WSS to GSD), straight away after vaccinations he came with me to work every day at a large animal hospital where most of the staff took their dogs in, each lunchtime he was walked in the grounds, sometimes with 1 dog, sometimes with 10, including a cairn terrier, a few labradors, a greyhound and a great dane with varying others inbetween. he is now 15 months old, and still doesnt take a telling, or read body language very well, hes too full of fun. if another dog tells him off, he simply jumps out of their reach, and as soon as the growling/warning stops he leaps straight back in to try and play again.  ive never met a more dog focussed dog, doesnt bother with livestock, doesnt chase rabbits or birds, but if theres a dog a mile away hes off to try and start a game! hes a ridgeback.

> no there was no mark on my dog

Thats good then :)

> We go to agility shows where she is nose to tail with other dogs all day and I see nothing like this happening.  I remained calm and quiet (on the surface that is) and Meg seemed not bothered at all.

That's brill that she didn't seem bothered by it and well done to you for staying calm, it's very easy to go into panick mode with things like that, it looks & sounds so awful. I tremble like a leaf when Buster gets growled at (I try my best to act like I'm cool, calm & collected), if he got pinned to the floor I would probably need a lay-down before I could walk home!

My girl is the same suz1985! She is such a social pup and wants to say hello to everyone which drives me bonkers most the time. I try to do most her walking on lead and then let her off to play with groups of dogs that I have met before. We have an unofficial meeting every evening between 5 and 7 where we all get together and let them play off lead. As I have mentioned on another thread, this can still go wrong but I think it's better for her than just running up to every dog she sees asking to play and be friends! I just wish that she was a bit more of a snob and realised that a dog snapping or growling at her IS NOT playing. She has been socilised every single day since she was over her jabs... ringcraft, puppy classes, a couple of shows and loads of different parks but she is still clueless as to judging another dogs intentions. It just means that I have to do it for her 100% of the time... which was made so clear to me yesterday when I went for a run without her and felt so relaxed and was able to think about things other than dogs and owners! HOWEVER, I would still much prefer this than having a dog aggressive dog that could potentially harm others. 

lol, I know how you feel... my boy was accused of being a 'bully' at the park when a pup because he would race about to all the dogs, it was embarrasing and no amount of training would help. He's 3 now (and castrated) and weighs 42 kilos with not an ounce of fat. Yesterday he was rolling about in the field with a 6 month old cocker pup having the best time. Although he hasn't changed in the sense that every dog is a potential playmate and plays with a Leonburger as well as a Jack Russell, he has learned (thankfully) when a dog does NOT want to play (apart from the Staffy who had its tail between its legs on the beach the other day...). Fortunately he'll break off play to come now, and doesn't run off into the distance because he can see a dot on the horison which looks like a dog...

I would MUCH rather have one like him than a fearful dog who needs to be watched constantly...

yup, both sound like my boy lol. i also took him to puppy classes (puppyschool) and have been attending weekly obedience since he finished puppy school. he also went to ringcraft every week for about 6months, i have reduced this to once or twice a month now, and i attend shows with him quite regularly.
the unofficial meeting sounds quite good, wish there was something like that near me (im im in central scotland)
im quite lucky in where i stay there is a large area of fields and moor type land that lie at the back of my house where i can let him off and he can run around to his hearts content, and as its flat i can see dogs coming from a while away (it tends to be quiet though thankfully)
was nice, had him out yesterday and met a guy with 2 greyhounds who was happy for my boy to play with the two of them and the three of them had an absolute ball, racing up and down! was lovely to see all 3 tails wagging!

however as you say, i would much rather him like this than being fearful or aggressive, if this is his worst problem then im not doing too badly!

> if he got pinned to the floor I would probably need a lay-down before I could walk home!

blimey! I'd like to see the dog who could do that :)

> blimey! I'd like to see the dog who could do that :-)

LOL!!! I do forget he's a big lump, 'cause he's my 'little' baby :)

My dog is well socialised and she doesn't usually get it wrong.  She obviously read this other dog all wrong though.  Being a collie she has this silly little thing about running after dogs who are moving away from us and giving a little grumble.  This is more likely to happen if I speak to the owners.  Don't know if it is the instinct to keep the 'herd' together or just saying good riddance.  She can be a bit of a mystery sometimes.  Anyway had to walk with grandson in the pushchair this morning - took ball and thrower thingy too.  Must say she was very well behaved.  (didn't bump into any cats thank goodness)

Being a collie she has this silly little thing about running after dogs who are moving away from us

Well socialised Collies have never been timid about approaching other dogs, the herding instinct is always there, I've often found particularly with some pet BC's is that they will run up to dogs growl on approach and very often try to nip a dogs legs.  Now, my family gundogs in general will ignore the BC's when doing this and not retaliate, (which I guess is why you were so shocked that the lab went for your girl) but for instance my brothers GSD's whilst training would not have tolerated this behaviour and may well have taken it the wrong way, so I had to be very careful to keep some local BC's away from them.

The herding instinct will always be there, however BC's are very intellegent and easy to train (in general) good recall will make all the difference when you notice she is approaching other dogs, I actually would have a BC whistle trained aswell much more effective for instructions and will detract from what she has a natural instinct to do, some BC's if not trained properly can be quite growly, nippy dogs, they don't mean anything by it, but other breeds won't tolerate it, so it needs addressing, glad that you are also using the ball for play and distraction, I believe that a ball and a whistle are two great assessts when owning a BC. :-)