Hi all

I'm hopefully expecting our first litter in the next few weeks, and know that my bitch is dominant. She has had plenty of practice with my older dog (they are 1 year apart - castrated male) but she is a most loving and gentle girl most of the time, she just likes to be the boss, and as my male is a puddin' and doesn't object to being henpecked, she's never been challenged! I know this sounds like a bad picture, but she is a really lovely girl, I wouldn't have considered breeding from her if I thought she had a bad disposition! A experienced behaviourist once observed her guarding her freshly dug hole on the beach one day (someone I bumped into) and she decided that she was only dominant to those she knew she could be... thus when an obviously more dominant dog (Staffy) approached, she didn't react at all.

My question is this. We plan to hopefully keep a bitch puppy from this litter thus she will have her daughter as part of the pack. I know it's not really a good idea to choose a dominant puppy. Does anyone have any advice on this? I want to minimise the risk of problems from the start, not find I have a problem a few months down the line. I've heard how scary it can be when two bitches don't get along.

Also, is it a good idea for me to make sure I'm above her in the pecking order starting right now? I spend most time with the dogs and she will come to me for affection, but can also be pretty aloof. I know I probably need to work on that.  The only way she shows dominance to us humans in the household is pushing for affection, that's probably it, she has never ever snapped or growled in her whole life at us. My husband on the other hand, one word - total respect...

Dogs aren't actually ever trying to be dominant over people, so that won't come into it  -it's an old misconception dating back to the 1940's which has since been disproved. :)
http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?sid=14&pid=1640

How old is your bitch? I've got a bitch that is the alpha of all the dogs here and she has 2 daughters, one aged 7, one aged 3. She has always bullied the older one as I had that bitch spayed when young -seemed to make all the difference (this girl never tries to answer back but all the others consider her to be worthless as she is spayed and never has had a season), but she is instead fine with her entire daughter, and I've never had a problem with them at all despite the daughter being a pretty dominant bitch too. There is 6 years between them though. The bigger the age gap, the more the chance of things turning out well, usually.

I'd tend to ignore the views on "dominance" as such and don't think about how your bitch may be the dominant one over another dog etc :)
What is happening is that she can do what she likes with your other dog because he probably doesn't mind that much and has a relaxed temperament but if it was another dog of either sex it may be a different story.

Generally speaking, dogs learn in context what they can and can't do with each other individual dog - this is basically what "hierarchy" is - it's not about a fixed linear thing at all, as used to be thought. Hormonal influences do need to be taken into account, for example coming into season can obviously effect bitches who live together, and so on.

Same thing with ourselves - don't think of yourself as alpha because we now know it's not like that any more either.

Good luck

Lindsay
x

She's 2 years 4 months - Golden Retriever

Funnily enough, she has never had an actual fight, but she has tried to be dominant with other strong bitches in the past (running alongside hovering over their necks) and one bitch in particular took exception and had a grumble at her. She didn't submit and had a grumble back. I thought I'd wait and see how it developed, and no violence, I think I wanted to see what her reaction would be with another strong bitch. After all, she can't get away with the behaviour and is going to be told in no uncertain terms "back off". By the way, the other bitch in question really chases her own pup about trying to reign her in when they've been playing.

My bitch just needs to learn she can't be Alpha when she's out and about...

By the way, she does play also, just not as much as my boy, who will make friends with just about any shape and size of dog known to man:)

the breeder I got my rottie from did personality testing on the dogs.  I can't remember what it is called but they then matched up appropriate dogs with owners.  I looked on u tube at the time and saw someone doing the tests on a litter.  This might help you identify the most suitable pup.

its called temperament testing and is done on litter pups.
for example, how long can you hold them before they wriggle.
so on so forth.

this was a phase a few years ago, i think guide dogs or suchlike hand a hand in the trend?

but its pretty much discredited now, bruce fogle mentions some research in his book.
the pups developed personalities different to those predicted from the tests, including his own dog.

found the details now.
Puppy Aptitude Tests (PAT Tests) started 1970's by William Campbell.
Several tests, incl clapping hands, restraining pup on back for 30 secs, etc.
To determine social dominance, social attraction, etc.
Margaret Young of Vet School N. Carolina State Uni performed PAT Tests on several hundred pups 6 to 8 weeks. Then again at 3 years. Over 100 hundred of these dogs also had intermediate testing at 16 and 26 weeks and 1.5 yrs.
The later tests showed most of the dogs had personalities different to those predicted by the 6 to 8 wk tests, showing the tests to be worthless when it comes to predicting character.

It was the volhard puppy aptitude test I think they used.

its the same thing really.

From my understanding they still use this technique in picking the pups to be giude dogs or assistance dogs. I suppose if its there to start with you can mould it to the way you really need. There is no way a puppy which is really full on or overly submissive and shows huge signs of fear would even be considered for the above working dogs.

So I guess if I were choosing a good temperament puppy to raise with her 'strong' mother, it would be that happy-go-lucky middle-of-the-road personality who wasn't overly timid, but not over-the-top either.

PS: She'll need a waggy tail and a sunny disposition so she'll 'shine' in the showring!!

I wouldn't say my bitch was overly confident when a pup. She was fearful of 'new' things to begin with, I didn't force any situation onto her, instead always acted like it was ok. We must have done something right because she's pretty much bombproof now...

I just wonder, should I perhaps stop her henpecking my male dog? If he has something she'll always 'want' it, and 9 times out of 10 she'll get it, usually by waiting for him to get bored and then take it. If he's got something really good, she'll inch up to him, even put her head a couple of inches away from the object, then take it off him... its quite funny to see, he just couldn't give a stuff really! She never shows aggression to get what she wants from him. He did growl once when he had a bone, and she backed off immediately.

There has never been any blood or angry exchange between them but she loves to 'hump' him, stand over him when he's lying on the floor, sits on him, gets the upper hand when they're wrestling (he's 10 kg heavier than her!) by biting his ear and not letting go until he cries. Weight and size not an issue for her, she's got him right where she wants him.

Is there anything I should do at this point?

Some interesting views in the previous posts! everyone's an expert it seems.. :-)
Any time a new dog or bitch is intoduced into your pack it really is a case of good management from you, I can tell by your concern that you want to get this right first time, but don't beat yourself up if you miss it once or twice, that's the way everybody learns..whether dog or person!
It sounds as if your bitch has taken the role of "leader" although she doesn't really want it, these kind of leaders are usually a little shaky when it comes to decisions.My advice would be to recover your leadership position, sure she sees you as an equal but for the sake of the new pup coming in she has to see you as a leader ..only leaders get to "tell off" and discipline. I'm more than happy to give you some tips on how to go about this if you feel it would be helpful.

How dogs fit together in their family group changes from day to day, week to week depending on a vast array of internal and external factors.

My so-called ' top dog' is a small gentle female cavalier who has never done more than given 'the look' but she is happy, confident and laid back..she copes with change well and is very friendly. Dogs with deficiancies in these areas struggle for contentment and sometimes appear 'alpha'.

Surely if it is her own pup that is being kept then she will always try and be 'the boss' to her??

My mother and daughter are like this although mother is very friendly and no issues with other dogs or people - it is her daughter that has turned out like that!!

> My so-called ' top dog' is a small gentle female cavalier who has never done more than given 'the look'

lol, our oldest girl is the same, smallest of the lot and very quiet and dainty, but can stop anything with a look lol

Some interesting views in the previous posts! everyone's an expert it seems.. :-)

Any time a new dog or bitch is intoduced into your pack it really is a case of good management from you, I can tell by your concern that you want to get this right first time, but don't beat yourself up if you miss it once or twice, that's the way everybody learns..whether dog or person!
It sounds as if your bitch has taken the role of "leader" although she doesn't really want it, these kind of leaders are usually a little shaky when it comes to decisions.My advice would be to recover your leadership position, sure she sees you as an equal but for the sake of the new pup coming in she has to see you as a leader ..only leaders get to "tell off" and discipline. I'm more than happy to give you some tips on how to go about this if you feel it would be helpful.

i couldn't help notice the irony of the opening statement, when it was followed by the latter posting.

kruse walker i didn't say that. if you hit reply to the actual post your answering the poster will recieve a prompt to read it. This avoids confusion and potential upset.

as it happens i agree, but perhaps we are misreading the tone.

hello astarte

Thanks for the tip, i didnt know about that function.

How does the person you are quoting get an alert? I have been quoted before and never had an alert.

Genuine question though - on any other forum I post on, you just quote the post you are responding to, and everyone else knows your post isn't addressing them, simply because they know what they are reading wasn't written by them.
So im not too sure how/why anyone could get confused or upset?

You might be right about the tone, maybe we are misreading squiffie?

no problem, its caused bother before though with long threads where people reply to you and state you wrote things. it also means the person its intended for doesn't know its there so can't answer.

if you hit reply to whichever post your replying to it automatically sends them a prompt (you'll get one on the main screen of the forum from me for this). if you click the link given it takes you to the post.

you can quote the post your answering and answer them anyway. rather than scroll to the end of the thread (often several pages on) just hit reply to the post your reading.

thanks for that.

understand now

i get those prompts at the top.

> i get those prompts at the top.

lol were you mystified by them before?

Sorry - butting in here off OP but - If I just want to reply to the general post what should I do?  I just select reply on the last post - is this wrong?

i thought they were prompts just saying a thread you have added to has some later posts, as opposed to prompts saying your very own post has been replied to.

>If I just want to reply to the general post what should I do?

If you want to reply to the general thread then you reply to the first post. If you want to respond to a particular comment someone's made then you reply to that post. :-)

Thanks - that's very clear = just hope I can remember LOL

lol, nope, replies to you!

Jeangenie

    >If I just want to reply to the general post what should I do?

If you want to reply to the general thread then you reply to the first post.


What, you mean every single person that posts on a thread clicks reply on the opening post????
That sounds odd.
Surely if you were just replying generally, you would click reply on the last post made?

That's what I've always done.

Sorry for carrying on off topic, but this is all news to me, and im a bit confused.

What, you mean every single person that posts on a thread clicks reply on the opening post????
That sounds odd.
Surely if you were just replying generally, you would click reply on the last post made?That's what I've always done.

I always click on the last post in order to reply - if I am aiming my reply at a particular poster I either use their name in my reply or copy, paste and italicise (if there is such a word) the relevant part of their post that I am replying to.

Harley: I always click on the last post in order to reply - if I am aiming my reply at a particular poster I either use their name in my reply or copy, paste and italicise (if there is such a word) the relevant part of their post that I am replying to.

ditto to all that

> I always click on the last post in order to reply - if I am aiming my reply at a particular poster I either use their name in my reply or copy, paste and italicise

I think that is perfectly fine.  It is probably better to reply to the actual post but the problems only really occur when posters don't indicate who they are talking to.  I would say quoting or referring by name are the really important thing because even if you reply to a post and that poster gets a notification the rest of us reading will often be confused as to the point or poster being referred to if the information is not there.

>What, you mean every single person that posts on a thread clicks reply on the opening post????
>That sounds odd.
>Surely if you were just replying generally, you would click reply on the last post made?

No, if you're replying generally you reply to the opening post. If you're replying to a specific comment made by someone further down the thread you click on reply on that post. You only click reply on the last post if that's the specific one you're replying to. Quoting the part of the post, and/or mentioning the  poster's name, help make it clear.

Here is a useful thread about this very subject.

> You only click reply on the last post if that's the specific one you're replying to.

I can't see anything wrong with that if you say you are only making a general comment.  Some threads are very long and if they run to more than one page it is a bit complicated to get back to page one sometimes.  Well it is for me :-)

Thanks for that... she is quite dominant outside with things like her ball, guards a hole in the sand she's dug, etc. Its usually younger dogs or ones she knows she can dominate. I agree she probably sees me as her equal, although she's never snapped at any humans... ever! I know i've got some time to shift my standing in the pack before any chosen puppy lives with us. It will be her daughter also, which may be easier? She is being a little more aloof than usual, but that could be the pregnancy...

Any tips welcome...

I do think the label dominant is misused or used inappropriately.  I would call your bitch wilful, perhaps even a little immature, as many of those behaviours are the kind puppies get away with, not dominant.

I made the mistake of keeping the most laid back puppy rather than the best puppy in my first litter.

I ended up with a bitch who really didn't give a hoot about hierarchy, and wasn't interested in her position in the grand order as long as she was left in peace (once fully mature she would stand up for herself if needed).

So Mum remained higher ranking than her daughter until granddaughter reached five years, this one was more of a social climber and she took over top spot.

Rankings in a pack do change so choosing a puppy to keep on that basis is not really sound.  You have a decent age gap between generations and manage things so that peace and harmony is maintained.

Yep..I do humour too..lol

You're right in stating that the puppy is her daughter and should therefore make the situation easier. As someone way back in the thread said, the bitch will be boss of her pup anyway. The issues usually surface as the youngster goes into "rebel without a cause" stage, varies on the breed but usually around a year, would likely to coincide with a season of , in this case, the mother or the daughter.
Most folk who have a few dogs are aware of the harmony within the pack and the sometimes terrible concequences when things go out of sync. Much better to avoid the confrontation in the first place. As I said before it's possible that your bitch has placed herself as leader so  to take that pressure off her you can take that position yourself, it's not a question of constant discipline it's more to do with calmly not allowing issues to occur. One poster early on in the thread described her "alpha" bitch as calm and could stop any shinanagins with a look, that's the kind of leader you need to be. If you watch how a well balanced pack behaves, whether wild dogs or a domestic group they have a carefully considered list of boundries and limitations put in place , for the good of the pack, by the leader. So you need to rock your bitch's world a little after the pups are born and weaned. You mentioned she seems aloof at the moment, I'm inclined to agree with you that pregnancy can make them almost turn inwards, becoming more self concerned. I'm guessing that now would not be the time to ask you to change her world, it would be really difficult for you, we all care about our dogs but our concern is really at it's height when protecting an expectant Mum, and she needs security without too much change around.So for now, certainly don't allow her to claim her ball as her personal property. You have to think of everything you have and everthing you do as yours. That applies to your time and your choices in particular. You allow her to play with her ball , but it is yours to take away too. You allow her to get on the sofa (if that's what you do) but the key word is ..allow..you invite her onto the furniture .These little things won't disturb her but they will offer her the opportunity to give up her leadership calmly.

I totally agree with you about your calm "top dog" bitch. It's pretty much the same in humans, ruffled feathers only happen in the insecure.Sounds like your pack have a very balanced leader in you and your girlie with the basilisk look!

Thanks for the comments, I think there is definitely something in her maybe being a little insecure. She always has a tail/head up pose whenever we meet any dog, she has never submitted whatever the provocation, but in those situations doesn't really react either. She does boss my male dog about but will only guard her ball/hole from another dog, has never snapped or even growled at a human. I can take anything from her - Oh my, I'm confusing myself now.....lol!!!!

I'm planning to work individually with all of my dogs on training, to make sure I have good trust/control when we're out and about.issues with a bitch puppy probably won't surface until after a good few months. In fact, maybe she will mellow a little. I just want to avoid the situation  where the pup and her hate each other and fight. I want to try to prevent anything like that from happening way before it happens.

Its good to hear others' experiences and opinions, dogs are dogs, regardless of their breed.

Isabel:

I can't see anything wrong with that if you say you are only making a general comment.  Some threads are very long and if they run to more than one page it is a bit complicated to get back to page one sometimes.  Well it is for me :-)

i agree.
ive only ever added general replies to the current end of a thread.
no one has ever mentioned anything about this before now?
like isabel says, its the most straightforward way.
plus thats normal posting practice for forums in general.

ive always posted the same way for the same reasons when quoting as well, but you should copy and paste adding the person's name, just like i have done here, to avoid confusion.

>no one has ever mentioned anything about this before now?

In the past couple of weeks there has been a lot of confusion caused when people get email notifications that someone has replied to them and in fact the reply hasn't been to them at all. So people are effectively getting spammed, and the person who actually needed the notification doesn't get it and might not know there's been a reply to their query (not everyone spends all day on here, reading every post! ;-)). So it saves a lot of hassle if people reply to the actual post that spurred them to reply in the first place!