Hi Everyone I bred my bitch last year and the puppies were all different .It was a total outcross as the gene pool in our breed is not that big and it turned out there were no pups that i wouldve said were particularly outstanding she had 8 ,so my question is,do you go for same "type" as your bitch i.e. mine is fine boned and just on the minimum height  so do I go for a smaller dog or try and find a stud that has some relations furthur back as your bitch,i dont mean brothers sisters aunts etc though!!!!

That's the trouble with outcrossing; most litters tend to be at best mediocre, with only one or two with potential.

If my bitch was just on the minimum height I certainly wouldn't go for a small dog - I'd go for one who was the correct height for a dog, and who ideally already had offspring who were also the correct height.

The whole point is to find a dog who complements your bitch's good points and improves on her failings.

I read this heading with dread.............thinking it would be the usual - do I pick one round the corner, or one where the stud owner wants a puppy instead of a stud fee.

BUT NO ITS NOT!!!!!  THANK YOU, WILLOWSMUM, THANK YOU!!!!   A sensible one - at last - and someone who really has looked into things carefully, and is planning ahead carefully too.

:) :) :)

I would look for dog/bitch in the ring or working that I like & the type I want. I then look at the sire & dam of the dog/bitch. If the bitch has similar lines & is like my bitch, I would then look for other offspring of the sire to see if they too are what I want in my dogs & check out the breeding of the dams. If the sire is producing the same type of offspring to different types of bitches then I would look at his pedigree, look up the dogs/bitches in it & check it against my bitches. If the two are complimentary then I would want to see the dog in the flesh to consider if I & the stud dog's owner think the mating would improve the breed.

I managed to produce at least one really nice dog/bitch in each of the litters I bred

Hi,

Is there a line, in ther pedigree, that you really liked (health and type) from your outcross breeding? there are always "things" you like and dislike....you can  "pick" what you like in your line breeding, if you know your breeding lines, you can stamp that line.......I hope I am making sense to you, if not PM me!!

Knowledge of your breed and lines makes life a lot easier.

I would look for a dog that was really good in the areas that your bitch failed, and one that has produced good pups. Look at the dogs you admire and see if they have any common bloodlines, or even better a common sire. NEVER double up on faults.

I went to a nearly almost total outcross with my girl last year.  My girl is medium sized but has a little head really for the breed.  I went to quite a big boy but who is really big boned and to me has a nice head.  I have a pup now of 11 months that I'm really pleased with, she is on the bigger scale for a bitch but she is put together brilliantly.  Just need her brain to be put into gear for the show ring, she's great at standing but is a nutter on the move.

Good grief steady on loki !!! I have indeed been looking into this with alot of careful consideration,i was only planning to have the one litter from her(she had her litter a day after her 3rd birthday) but as i was so disappointed with the pups from a showing/conformation aspect, that apart from them all being sweeties with brill temperaments i thought i may mate her again next year when she is 5,didnt want to but she is lovely and i would dearly like a reasonable puppy from her to show.I have kept one pup in the hopes he may improve with age,havent got the heart to let him go!!!
Im going to our breed show soon and hope to get chatting to some folks there,trouble is the "type " I like dont have anything in the lines the same as my girl so in effect it would be another outcross!!!???!
Thankyou for your replies  I suppose that what you mean moonmaiden is that a particular dog is putting his stamp on his offspring? so ......am i getting muddled now? could in effect do the same to my bitches pups.
yep houndham im getting confused now, may have been thinking about this toooooooo much!!

I used a total outcross for the breeding I did with Cher, and the reaction from people in the breed (apart from the stud owner) is that I shouldnt have done it.  That I should have bred BROTHER AND SISTER!!!  I wont do that, and every other dog I looked as heavy with this one particular dog in the lines so I looked at the dog I ended up deciding to use. I had been following the dog since he was a pup in the conformation ring, and have always liked him. 

I looked at what I liked about the dog, what I didnt like.  Does my girl have the same problems?  What could I potentially get from this mating?  Do I like the other males progeny?  It is risky when you do an outcross, but it isnt always bad. 

Hopefully I have something spectacular in this litter to keep and show.  But I like what I see so far.  So here's hoping. 

>I suppose that what you mean moonmaiden is that a particular dog is putting his stamp on his offspring? so ......am i getting muddled now? could in effect do the same to my bitches pups.

Actually that is exactly what I meant :-D

That's the trouble with outcrossing; most litters tend to be at best mediocre Hi JG.. sorry to pick up on your post but I totally disagree   .. there is a lot more cleverness to breeding than line breeding. There is a far better area in my opinion called middle ground.  So many people have run into trouble breeding too close for too long I personally think.

The trouble wasn't the outcross , it was probably not knowing the pedigrees and dogs within it well enough.

Some of the most successful dogs in my breed have been from out crosses, in fact 2 litters that produced 3 champions in each were both outcrosses.. BOB at Crufts, Top dog and top stud last year were outcrosses. Certainly not mediocre.

If my bitch was just on the minimum height I certainly wouldn't go for a small dog - I'd go for one who was the correct height for a dog, and who ideally already had offspring who were also the correct height.
100% agree


The whole point is to find a dog who complements your bitch's good points and improves on her failings.
100% agree

I am not saying at all that outcrossing is the way to go but I was suprised at your comments.

A bit of both does the world of good.

In certain breeds and in certain eras, a dog comes along which is so prepotent, he can produce his own type to almost any bitch.
In the 80's people used to say a boxer called Grouse could be mated to a cat and produce winning puppies - his pups were easy to spot.

In Cavaliers we have a similar dog and I'm sure there is a 'supersire' in many other breeds.
If showring success is what you want then this is where to look ...........but these dogs are heavily used, risky if they prove to have faulty genes and may make future pedigrees too congested...all points to ponder.
It goes without saying that any sire must fulfill the breed specific health criteria.

If you have time,spend the summer sitting by the ringside and log all those dogs you consider the type you are aiming for and find a pattern. Ask questions, ask to handle dogs to assess their temperament and come home and look at worldpedigrees online....... a splendid way to while a few hundred hours :-)

Whether linebreeding or outcrossing..one tip I would give..never use a dog with an ugly mother :-) ...no matter how good he is. We often see the fathers and they are usually winners but mothers...well that's a whole other thing entirely, they could be very poor and this will come through.
In my last 3 litters I have used 1.the son of a  UK/USA Ch bitch - 2. the son of a UK  bitch who has produced other Ch children and 3.a son of a big winning bitch with a Ch mother, father and sister. I have kept a pup from all 3 litters and all have turned out to be exceptionally good.
In a breed where there is a reasonably sized gene pool, I would never use the son of a 'pet' quality mother no matter how good he is. 

..never use a dog with an ugly mother

Does that go for men as well? ;-)

Well ........men have used that old adage about ' always look at her mother before marrying the daughter' for centuries. :-)

As usual an excellent post  :-)  AND never use a dog with an ugly mother  ...no matter how good he is.  Best advise there is..

>That's the trouble with outcrossing; most litters tend to be at best mediocre
>>Hi JG.. sorry to pick up on your post but I totally disagree   ..

Your prerogative. :-) It does seem to be borne out by the OP's experience, though.
"there were no pups that i wouldve said were particularly outstanding she had 8"
In a good sized litter like that one would hope to be nit-picking between several good quality puppies, not scraping the barrel and finding nothing.

Hi JG :-)

That was my point that I made ,

I said in regards to the OP litter that "The trouble wasn't the outcross , it was probably not knowing the pedigrees and dogs within it well enough." To me that was the problem nothing to do with the actual outcross.

There is not just 2 types of breeding patterns outcrossing and line breeding.  Both to the extremes can have serious affects on quality and health. I believe as I said there is,  " selection" by type and true understanding of the dogs in the pedigrees.   That is why we all need the help of mentors or from those that have seen the dogs in a pedgree perhaps we haven't.  I am with two hands up still a total novice but by nature I am a ,"look at the bigger picture" person.

I would need to check fully the pedigrees behind the winners who stacked up the points but I know 100% for sure 6 out of the last 8 years top breeders in my breed did and do outcrossing.  A freind of mine who I would always regard as a true mentor I never hear them say line breed or outcross just " type breeding".

If you had said " this often happens etc" I wouldn't have quoted you but I was a bit studded by the " at the best mediocre" comments which just couldn't be further from the truth. You just need to look at the show ring to see this.

>If you had said " this often happens etc" I wouldn't have quoted you

I did say "most" and "tend to be" ... ;-) That clearly implies that there will be exceptions, and that it's not guaranteed fact every time. :-)

I did say "most" ...  That clearly implies that there will be exceptions.  You did I'll give you that :-)

In Cavaliers, one cannot ( or should not) practice close line breeding but despite that I am finding the puppies are of good quality.

The small litter size, coupled with precise markings desired, limits the choice.

However the mothers of my pups are stud book number holders at least and green card winners at best - so mated to top class studs - excellence is expected.

Strangely I've lost count of the number of people who say that they can't tell my dogs apart despite not being closely related, I have chosen and bred on for type and am always on the look out for dogs that fit my idea of 'type'.

LOL granitecitygirl

The dog i used was an import with british lines the grandsire was a good looking fella with good progeny, grandam not so typey, both Champions but as i said it was an outcross and  the idea was to bring different blood into the lines . The point about ugly mothers may well be right though, Dont think ill mention this to MIL!!!!

My OH looks like his mother so I can't really say anything.  I can only improve the lines though :-p

> I can only improve the lines though

My point precisely GCG :-) :-)

In my case I have no real option than to outcross. One side of my girl's pedigree is wholecolour, and I only want particolours. The other side, all the lines I like are from breeders who don't MRI scan. As regards type, I would ideally be looking for a slightly smaller dog, as my bitch is quite big and stocky, but as long as they aren't ridiculously big, quite frankly the body shape and the head is more important to me. And by the time I have narrowed it down to the head, angulation etc, MRI scan result, clear heart & eyes, and temperament, and preferably not the other end of the country, I'm down to one or two dogs, particularly as I'm not an expert and am not capable of making the inspired decision of non-obvious dogs that the experienced breeders can make. The dog I used year before last, we had 2 puppies, 1 stunning and is winning in America (and my friends over here say I could have made him up), and 1 lovely head but mismarked, and not sure about the body as he's a pet that hasn't been taught to stand properly in profile - looks ok from the pics though!