Hello, there,

I haven't posted on here before, and I've had a quick search to see if this particular issue has already been discussed, but didn't find anything - please excuse me if you have already 'done' this subject!

We got Marcus almost exactly a year ago from the Dogs Trust. He is a 4-5 year old neutered male Collie x German Shepherd, and we understand we were his first rehomers, although we don't know what his previous background was, as he was a stray. He is a bit of a handful, but has settled in with my husband and me very well. We have put a lot of effort into his training, and he now does all the basic stuff really well, and I've started taking him to agility classes, which he loves.

However, he is a dreadful chaser, and will go after anything that runs away from him, and once he is on the trail, there is NOTHING I can do to get him back, so to be on the safe side, I keep him on the lead most of the time. He is OK with other dogs up to a point - if they leave him alone, he leaves them alone, but the problems occur if another dog shows the slightest sign of aggression towards him - Marcus repays it 10 times over!

What can I do when other owners let their dogs run up to mine, which is on the lead? Today he got into quite a fight with a yellow Lab which came bounding up to him, barking - and then its owner said I ought to keep my dog muzzled. I do ask people to keep their dogs away, but some of them seem to have no control whatsoever. We have had our other dogs from puppies, and they have all been trained to instant recall, but an adult rescue dog isn't so straightforward.

Should I muzzle him as well as keeping him on the lead? it seems really unfair when it's not actually him that starts the fight!

I would appreciate your comments.

  

Should I muzzle him as well as keeping him on the lead? it seems really unfair when it's not actually him that starts the fight!

The trouble is , no matter how hard you work to rehabilitate your dog, you cannot control other peoples, and and their lack of  control over their dogs.

Personally , No I would not muzzle him, you are doing all you can, and the trouble is what happens when one of those dogs attacked him while he is on lead and muzzled.

I have been in your situation, (still am to a point)  I tried the muzzle and my bitch got mauled, by an off lead dog, who's owner had no control...after that I am afraid, I take the view.. I can only do so much, my dog has as much right to enjoy her walks, she pays a penalty  for not being allowed off the lead... I will be damned if I am going to muzzle her as well.

The sad fact is , that everytime one of these dogs  interferes with your rehabilitation ,it will set your boy back 100 steps.

jackbox i totally agree, i do know my client had a dog from rescue who had a similar problem, very defensive and teritorial, she called in a psycologist and he sorted the problem out, not sure what he did but it worked, i dont know if this will help but it could be worht a try

Hi Sahara,

Welcome to the forum :)
   I'm so sorry to hear of your experience, and can wholeheartedly empathize with you. I have been there and done that with a Breed rescue dog (4 yrs ago) I'm here to reassure you that there is light at the end of the tunnel :)
   Today I now have a dog that for the past 3 years has not so much as grumbled at another dog and will happily trot past any canine 'muggers' batting not an eyelid :)
   The answer is training,training,training... BUT... the right kind of training (positive reward based). There is no 'quick fix'.
Even though I considered myself to be experienced in dog training I had no qualms whatsoever in employing a reputable behaviorist {from APDT or APBC}. I had mine recommended to me and she is a member of APBC (<- click on the link!)  I paid around £20-25 pounds per session (90 mins) so it doesn't break the bank!! and anyway to my mind it is much cheaper than any ensuing vets bills from a fight (worst case scenario)!!
      The problem with advice on an internet forum is that whilst it my have worked for 'that person' it may be wholly inappropriate for your dog and/or you (with potentially disastrous consequences)
      The value of bringing in a good Behaviorist or trainer is that your dog will be assessed and its behavior witnessed in the flesh, but equally as important your handling of the dog/situation can also be assessed. I believe there is no substitute for this!
      I would most definitely not have the calm,happy, well rounded dog that I have today had I not brought in assistance with his rehabilitation :)
     Until you can get help with this dog's training I would say you should not be wary of using a muzzle, many many owners of sighthounds, for example, use them and I have yet to see a miserable sighthound racing round a field!!!
I discussed this dilemma with my behaviorist (I was appalled to think I might have to muzzle a Husky!! never having owned one that wasnt 100% affable in every way) My behaiourist reassured me that to her (very experienced and learned)mind it was the mark of a responsible owner. I agreed, until my dog started his training I used a muzzle, it fazed him not one jot I didn't encounter any comments from other walkers in fact most presumed it was because he was a Husky and would chase squirrels& Bunnies :) I did find that it made people with unruly dogs more inclined to call them off steaming toward my dog so averting any potential problem in the bud :) I only had to use the muzzle for about a 6 month period.... and never since :)

I really hope this helps, or gives you food for thought.
  I wish you the very best! I'll be rooting for you, and if you need a kindred spirit to moan to at any point feel free to PM me :)

Liv x
   

Can I just chirp in to say that if you are going to muzzle him - make sure that you introduce it slowly with plenty of rewards and praise.  Don't know what your dog is like but mine is very wary of having anything put over her head - she is a Working sheep dog and will chase and go for some dogs on the lead.  She is much more defensive on the lead then off.   To return to the muzzle - once introduced and alarmed a collie will never forget and it will be harder to get him to accept it.

Some interesting articles here, hopefully will help you :)

Clicker solutions training articles

Calming signals - Turrid Rugaas

Bluecross - Muzzles, why bother?

There are some really good articles in the problem behavior section of the first link.
The second link is from a (fellow!) Norwegian (Highly regarded in the dog world) and will help you to 'speak' dog and perhaps to recognise the 'sub text' of whats going on when your dog encounters another.
  The third link will give some info if you have never fitted a muzzle before :)

edited to add: Oh, Ive been soo long typing this I see Ceejay has addressed that!! :)

Hope this helps :)

Oh I always thought Turrid was a female!  And I have even got the book.  Doh!

(((((ROFL!!!)))))))

She is!!!! I meant fellow as in we are both (she and I) Norwegian ;)

I will really have to get my eyes checked - didn't read it properly.  Swapping between here and e-mail and FB - can't keep this modern communication up :-)

Hello Sahara

have you contacted the dogs trust where you got her?

most branches usually have trainers and behaviourists working full time on the dogs and also available to help dogs once rehomed. 

Thankyou all very much for your good wishes and advice. It will take me a while to digest it all and decide on our best course of action, but I'll let you know how we get on.

I think I was getting into a bit of a depressive spiral about all this - I felt we had arrived at a certain stage, and then it was pointless to expect further improvement as his behaviour is so ingrained. I did take him back to the Dogs Trust for a training session with the behaviourist, but he was as good as gold there! You see, if another dog approaches him in a dignified, gentle and friendly fashion, Marcus will respond in a dignified, gentle and friendly way. It's when there's a bit of over-boisterousness that the trouble starts. The Dogs Trust advised me to start clicker training, and make sure Marcus is focused on me when another dog approaches. I have to admit that I perhaps gave up on this too early - but when there's another dog galloping towards him, then not even crispy bacon/chicken/cheesy treats can compete for his attention. I daresay the secret is to persevere.

Thanks again, and I will post again soon.

> I daresay the secret is to persevere

You've hit the nail squarely on the head ;)  (its a case of 'use it or lose it' with any training)
   I used clicker training and 'watch me!!' I also found it useful to use a walking belt (my breed can pull and lunge like a good 'un) which meant my hands were free to treat and not be hanging on increasing lead tension in times of trouble ;)
 
How many sessions did you have with the DT Behaviorist?
   I can't remember now exactly how many I had (lost in the mists of time!) but I would say probably about 15+ we started with the basics (big circles round a stooge dog, coming smaller and smaller to gradually meeting) then progressed to different stooge dogs in different settings (feild..country park car park...narrow lane) and then finally my behaviorist came out on walks with us to assess how we were getting on 'in reality' and give further coaching. I guess this was over a period of about 4-5 months with lots of homework given to me in between :)

Do hang on in there!! there were times when I wondered wether I would ever see light at the end of the tunnel.. but as I said above I now have a well rounded dog I can confidently take anywhere....oh and the best bit.... is finally being able to feel smug when your dog is good as a gold! and you finally think oooh I have the dog that other people have, that I used to look at with envy and think why cant mine be like that!! :-D

Good luck & keep up the good work xxx

How many sessions did you have with the DT Behaviorist?
   I can't remember now exactly how many I had (lost in the mists of time!) but I would say probably about 15+ we started with the basics (big circles round a stooge dog, coming smaller and smaller to gradually meeting) then progressed to different stooge dogs in different settings (feild..country park car park...narrow lane) and then finally my behaviorist came out on walks with us to assess how we were getting on 'in reality' and give further coaching. I guess this was over a period of about 4-5 months with lots of homework given to me in between

Just chipping in to say this is an excellent example of the best type of behaviourist!
So glad to hear this was helpful to you Huskygal :)

Lots of fantastic advice so far... however I feel the need to chip in as I have come across this situation recently. I recently had a falling out with a local GSD 'owner' over whether he should muzzle his dog. He walks his VERY aggressive guard dog where the other dog owners let their dogs off to play. I personally think it is irresponsible for an owner of a dog which they know to be aggressive not to muzzle. How can we expect our dogs to judge who is nice and who is nasty?

My girl has pretty good recall, but if she meets someone she really likes she will bounce on over to say hello. Storm chose this particular GSD to befriend and nipped over to say hi (this is in a dog friendly, socialising area). The owner shouted 'he will maul her' so I called her back, but that would have been far too late if the dog had wanted to be aggressive which he thankfully wasn't (this time). My opinion is that if you own a well socialised, non aggressive dog then you shouldn't have to be terrified of them meeting new dogs or restrict them to a lead for protection. If you know your dog has the potential to be aggressive then it is your responsibility to muzzle... why take the risk? I would be devastated and ashamed if I allowed my dog to attack another when I knew full well it had that kind of temperament.

I understand your dog is a rescue and it's behaviour is by no means a reflection of your handling or training, but please think of this situation from the other perspective as well.

stormy84, was the GSD on a lead?  I don't think any dog should be muzzled if the owner has it on a leash and can control it.  If a dog approaches another dog who is on the lead and gets told off by the dog then the dog will learn it's lesson the next time.  However I don't think an aggressive dog should be off lead if there are other dogs around.

Yes, his dog was on a lead, however walking amost a group of dogs playing off lead. I disagree that a dog on a lead is in control, it can still attack another dog or pull free. As for the un-aggressive dog 'learning it's lesson' why should my dog have to learn that other dogs are nasty when the majority are not? I don't understand why people are so adverse to using a muzzle when they know that their dog will attack?

> As for the un-aggressive dog 'learning it's lesson' why should my dog have to learn that other dogs are nasty when the majority are not?

Dogs need to learn that they cannot approach all dogs/people in the same way.  I have one dog that can be aggressive when she meets dogs that bark/growl/hump her and she will tell them off in no uncertain terms.  the bane of my life is people who let their dogs run amok near mine and say s/he only wants to play

A muzzle would distress my dog further and totally put her on the defensive as she wouldn't be able to defend herself.

as for your statement about people knowing their dogs will attack, I can only comment on my own situation but I don't ever know if she will attack - it depends on the behaviour of the approaching dog.

>why should my dog have to learn that other dogs are nasty when the majority are not?

For the same reason that children need to know that not all adult humans are fully trustworthy. The majority are and the majority of children never come to any harm - but they need to learn caution.

Hi Stormy84 :)

Recalls - their effectiveness varies depending on the dedication, expertise and realistic evaluation of the person responsible for the dog, the individul dog, it's age/development/hormones etc and, IME, that yet to be met unpredicatble but irresistable situation where even the otherwise most reliable dog goes selectively deaf!

As a matter of manners, it is better to put leads back onto dogs where there are other dogs already on leads.  I appreciate that someone walking a dog on lead with a particularly iffy temperament would be better advised to walk in areas not heavily populated by regularly off lead dogs but it's not always possible or practical.

TBH I would not recommend an on lead dog be muzzled except in extreme and even then only temporary circumstances - with the exception of one which is human aggressive.

> I disagree that a dog on a lead is in control, it can still attack another dog or pull free

That is open to a wide ranging set of circumstances - among which will include the size/weight of the dog in relation to the handler in the case of pulling free.  If an aggressive dog is otherwise under the control of the handler by way of a collar and lead, headcollar and lead or harness in lead then should an incident occurs with an off lead dog that has been permitted to rush up to the one under control, then it is certainly not the fault of the person with the aggressive dog!

> I don't understand why people are so adverse to using a muzzle when they know that their dog will attack?

A muzzled dog on lead around *uncontrolled dogs* is at risk of being attacked itself without any means of defense open to it! 

It's better to try and see these situations from everyone's POV before making sweeping statements.  Unless exercising our dogs on our own private land, we are all equally entitled to enjoy the same spaces and as such if basic good manners were shown by all parties then incidents would be significantly lower.  Dogs being dogs there will always be the unpredicted and 'to us' unprovoked response but any responsible owner should be looking out for the safety of their own dogs and taking appropriate measures to prevent potential incidents rather than relying on anyone and everyone else doing it for them :)

> My opinion is that if you own a well socialised, non aggressive dog then you shouldn't have to be terrified of them meeting new dogs or restrict them to a lead for protection.

Loose dogs running up to on-lead dogs are a pain in the bum, Ttey can cause behaviour problems.
My dog is very friendly but he's always kept on lead for the simple fact that his size frightenes people. Nearly every day that I take him out, off-lead dogs will run up to him, most of the time they start to growl at him (my dogs response to this is a play-bow). I get so mad with loose dogs running up to my on-lead dog, unfortuantely it seems like it's something I'm just going to have to live with and I'm keeping my fingers firmily crossed that being constantly 'ambushed' will not end up giving my 'teenage' dog a negative association.
If, during one of these encounters a dog actually physically attacks mine and he decides to defend himself, than so be it, I will not muzzle him to stop him defending himself against ill-mannered dogs.

However, when I had a dog-aggressive dog, he wore a muzzle when out, as he wasn't displaying 'normal' dog behaviour. A dog defending itself is one thing, a dog launching into a full-blown attack completely intent on taking out the other dog is another. I could not walk a dog outside, un-muzzled, if I knew it would seriously injure another dog simply for getting in it's space.

Thanks guys, I now have a better understanding of what the other side are going through. I have very few problems when out and about as I am cautious as to when Storm is off lead and am very quick to put her lead on if approaching another dog on lead. However, as I said, the dog in my case was known to be vicious and taken into an area with a group of dogs in an off lead area.

Thanks for some of the clarification Teri esp with the on lead muzzle situation. I think you will find my 'sweeping statements' were actually questions asking why things were a certain way. I do try so hard to understand other people and the way their dogs are, but I am sure you can understand that I feel hard done by when my dog is punished for other dog's violent/inconsistent/unpredictable behaviour.

My opinion is still if you know that your dog is vicious that you should be doing all you can to protect not only your own dog, but other people's dogs too. If that means road walking on a lead or using private land, then so be it.

mastifflover- loved your post, esp the distinction between a dog defending itself from an ambush compared to just being plain anti-social and vicious.

cheekychow- I can understand your situation and that is not what I am referring to. If my girl ambushed your dog and was told off for it.... then that is my own fault for letting her behave in that way. For me there is a huge difference between a dog telling another off (where owners need to be responsible) and a dog that will just attack if another dog is in it's presence. The latter case is what I was referring to and I now understand why it's possibly not as simple as putting a muzzle on.

Hi again Stormy84

I hope my post didn't come across as a personal lecture to you - if so, my apologies :)

I have been in situations where there has been a dog which as much for it's own stress levels as anyone else's should not have been around commonly used and heavily dog populated parkland so can appreciate where you're coming from.

Some places for walking unfriendly dogs are better suited than others, admittedly road work being the most obvious, but occasionally someone may rightly feel their dog is in need of not just exercise but also mental stimmulation and on lead walks in a park, moorlands, fields, bridle ways etc are it's only truly pleasant option. 

Dogs suffering from illness, surgery, going through recuperation etc are also in need of lead walks in pleasant and familiar surroundings - they, or at the very least their owners, could very easily take strong exception to any dog suddenly descending on theirs.   Equally rescue dogs which are perhaps being gently rehabilitated in multiple situations may be present, on lead, in these places.  In either of these cases it's a potentially huge problem to have even the best natured most docile dog come to 'greet them'.

Reasons for dogs being on leads are many and varied.  The responses that loose dogs get in these situations are varied too but are closely related to what the 'controlled' dog is feeling - overwhelming fear, stress, pain, confusion, dominance even right up to hatred and anything in between - it could be literally anything, and so just because a dog appears to lunge and/or try and attack does not always in itself mean that dog is a 'bad' dog.

regards, Teri

Thanks Teri- I did feel as though I had just been to see the principal :-P I completely understand the need for dogs to be on leads, especially if their recall isn't great or they are in an unpredictable situation like a bridle way with corners etc. For me, that isn't the problem as I am soooo careful with my girl and try and treat each approaching dog with as much care as possible. My point/question was more around dogs that are known to be aggressive and why muzzles aren't used more- which I now understand a bit better. I just think it's unrealistic for the owners of aggressive dogs to think that they deserve the same amount of freedom as those who's dogs behave well. Am I the one who is being unrealistic??

> Thanks Teri- I did feel as though I had just been to see the principal

LOL - I've had it suggested before I should have taken up teaching   Which would never have worked because I can't stand 'weans' - except my own :-D

> I just think it's unrealistic for the owners of aggressive dogs to think that they deserve the same amount of freedom as those who's dogs behave well

If folks pay similar local rates and taxes etc they have equal rights to everyone else to enjoy open spaces......  the moral or responsible reasoning may be different but that's where it ends, regardless of personal opinion.

> Am I the one who is being unrealistic??

In broad terms, yes ;) but if you're personally endangered by a specific dog then I can completely understand your feelings!

I thought I was probably expecting a bit too much of other humans.... :-P

> My point/question was more around dogs that are known to be aggressive and why muzzles aren't used more

Hi stormy84, my point here is that aggressive dogs are not always aggressive and it can depend on what else is in their environment that may set them off.  for some it may be another entire male in the vicinity and for others it might be a dog in their space.  I totally understand your sentiments of wanting a peaceful walk without having to keep an eye on other dogs you feel may pose a threat to yours but I don't think muzzling is the answer.

>If my girl ambushed your dog and was told off for it.... then that is my own fault for letting her behave in that way. For me there is a huge difference between a dog telling another off (where owners need to be responsible) and a dog that will just attack if another dog is in it's presence. The latter case is what I was referring to and I now understand why it's possibly not as simple as putting a muzzle on.

A  telling off from my dog is not a bark or a growl but a full on 'attack' (depending on your definition of attack) that can end in a bite or may just be noise.  Regardless it is horrible and I prefer not to get into situations where this will happen.  As an aside I can read my dogs body language well and know the signs that she is getting distressed/moody/anxious etc so will intervene but TBH if I came across your dog chances are I would not be particularly adept at reading Storms body language unless it was very obvious.

I was reminded of you  Sahara when I walked today - there is another rescue owner - a collie in fact who has had similar problems.  He has taught the dog to focus on him by playing fetch with a ball.  The dog carries the ball home and is less likely to lunge at passing dogs when he has the ball in his mouth.  Nevertheless he still asks me to walk my dog on the OUTSIDE of the pavement - which I am not comfortable with because my dog doesn't like the cars so close (on slower parts she will lunge at some vehicles) because if his dog drops the ball he will step out into the road to retrieve it.   He is not at ease with other dog owners - suspecting all of having dogs which will come bounding up to him.  He has done enough to cope but not to overcome the problem.

i went for a walk today in the local park and out of the 3 dogs we saw all 3 ran over to my on lead GSD, i could have let mine of but he plays VERY hard and can frighten another dog with his chasing and barking and barging, never bites or anything ominous but just so full on. he had a bit of a bark at the other dogs as they ran round him tring to sniff his bum and its a pain in the bum having to hold on to 8 stone of dog, but i excersize my right to walk where i want and if the other dogs owners dont like the way mine behaves they should employ the lead. interesting to note that in all 3 cases when thier dogs did go back they then clipped on a lead!

> interesting to note that in all 3 cases when thier dogs did go back they then clipped on a lead!

LOL, I've noticed the same!!!

This is a fascinating topic, I've been in most situations with varying dogs- thankfully none truly dog, or worse, human aggressive, I think there's a HUGE difference between a dog getting a 'telling off' by another and real aggression. 
One point that I think is really impotant is the benefit of other dogs helping to socialise our own.  If one of mine runs up to a dog in a ill-mannered way then a telling off by that dog can do more to help teach it manners and encourage proper socialisation than keeping it on the lead when it can't learn appropriate  behaviours and to understand body language.  Surely this is why we take them to puppy and training classes. 
Yes, we have to have measures of control and certainly intervene if things get out of hand, but, I think we are in danger of allowing our dogs to become as fearful and intolerant, as a lot of society has become,  and thus isolated.  I have always enjoyed meeting a wide range of people, and dogs, whilst out walking and hope this can continue without too many controls and restrictions.  I'm not undermining the problems and distress caused when a dog is truly attacked by another - but I'd hate us to get over-protective and restrictive.

"If one of mine runs up to a dog in a ill-mannered way then a telling off by that dog can do more to help teach it manners and encourage proper socialisation than keeping it on the lead "

In my opinion it's never allright to let your dog run up to a dog that's on the leash. Weather it's in an ever so friendly way or not, it's still wrong. In the above example, it might well be a good way to teach a young dog it isn't welcome everywhere. But what about the other dog? Maybe months of training is down the drain just because someone feels it's easier to let other dogs do the training of their dog? A dog that's kept on a leash, and under control, should never be approached by a dog running free. It's not fair, the leashed dog will be at a disadvanage, an know it. Some dogs cope well with this, others don't.
Karen

Stormy84 
"For me there is a huge difference between a dog telling another off (where owners need to be responsible) and a dog that will just attack if another dog is in it's presence. The latter case is what I was referring to and I now understand why it's possibly not as simple as putting a muzzle on"

I have a dog that will attack if another dog is in its presence. He is now 15 and not very steady on his feet. However, when he was younger he would attack any dog that approached him, friendly or aggressive.  He is always kept on a lead double lead.
He was muzzled at one time but it made him fearful and when he was attacked by another dog whilst wearing it he suffered deep wounds to his neck and body. In the end I managed to unclip his lead (sustaining a bite on my hand from the other dog in the process) and he escaped by running away, he is a lurcher and was fast on his feet! He was never made to wear a muzzle whilst out on a walk again.