Oviousley I no to breed her everyother year, but I want to no wen to get her spayed as she lives with a complete male (shes never bin breed before and shes 2)

Think the first thing you should ask yourself is why you are breeding her at all. When you have an answer to that in your own mind, let us know and then we can make suggestions. If you have avoided her being mated up to the age of 2 is there any reason why you can't continue to keep her safe and away from the dog when she is in season.

As the above post says. why are you wanting to mate her, why not get her spayed!
Are you willing to keep and feed up to 12 pups if they dont sell, or you cant get homes for them??
You have to think about these things before even thinking about mating any bitch, have she been tested to VWD's?
Personally the way the country is, I would get her spayed.

my dogs are excellent pedigree, have outstanding tempermants (both excelllent with my 2 year old daughter) i've always wanted to breed,ive a big house with a massive garden (plenty of room for pups!)

2 so go and have all the health tests done 1st ..its 1 litter a year ,has she done well showing ?? or is she a working dog .i dont have anymore than 2 litters from a bitch .

white lilly i agree, i planned on having 2/3 litters from my sbt(different breed i know) trouble was my first litter went so bad (not puppys) mother, she is a small bitch and she ended up with 10, unusual, we had lots of different major problems.

bottom line is have your first litter and see how it goes first, (dont count your chickens before they hatch)

were getting our girl spayed beause i couldnt cope seeing her go through it all again

sami

You say you have always wanted to breed dogs but what is the reason behind wanting to ? We all want to do things but there is always a reason why :-) Do you show and have you done relevant health checks ? Have you got a waiting list already as people are really struggling to sell pups at the moment and breed rescues are full to bursting ?

Have your dogs been tested for inheritable conditions that affect the breed? If not, don't even consider using either of them for breeding.

Have they both been independently assessed (with most breeds that means successfully shown) as being suitably close to the breed standard to be worth breeding from? If not, don't even consider using them for breeding. A good pedigree (whatever you mean by that) doesn't mean that the animal has inherited the good points of its ancestors!

Do you already have a waiting list of people wanting puppies? Even established breeders with good reputations for producing quality puppies are finding that suitable homes are becoming thin on the ground. Have you enough staff to train and socialise any pups that don't sell? Untrained adult dobermanns are virtually unhomeable.

Here is a very useful article on the subject.

i agree 100% with you sami ...its true you just dont know how its going to turn out till your there ...:) ..what i should of said even if all goes great and mum and pups do very well and you dont have to run to the vets every other day , i wouldnt have any more then 2 litters from same bitch

my last litter our girl had 12 , the last 2 where dead and the last 1 was taken out at the vets ...that was her 2nd litter ans she is being spayed too .

joanne x

oh bless, well our girl had eclampsia she tested 1.7 if she lost the .7 she either would have died or ended up brain dead, that was 3wks after her litter so we had to hand rear them fully from then, then she had a really serious case of mastitis, then lungworm/ pnewmonia, we thought we could have made a little extra cash when infact we needed a loan, not to pay the vet billt but to pay our bills as i was using all of our wages to cover the vet bills,

i actually received a phone call from my mortgage company, who was so inconciderate towards me when i told her my problems, basically said its the house or the dog, and me being me, i said if i had to choose it would be the dog, she was appauled at me but it mde me feel so much better for saying it,

:)

i would do the same too sami ...your poor girl went thro soooo much :( x

my dogs are excellent pedigree, have outstanding tempermants (both excelllent with my 2 year old daughter) i've always wanted to breed,ive a big house with a massive garden (plenty of room for pups!)

And here lies the problem of why there are thousands of pups and dogs in rescue! Let alone health and temperament problems.

Do you really believe that having a big house and massive garden make a good breeder, believe me they are not even on the list of why anyone should be breeding.

You don't know the first thing about breeding, but because you like your pet dogs and have room for puppies you seem to think you have a right to do it.

Firstly, take a few years to learn about breeding, go to shows, join your breed club, check out the KC website, see if your dogs do well in the show ring and are reverred by others as being good breeding stock, make sure they have good hips, eyes, pass all breed related health tests, then you can just about think about breeding from your dogs.  Make sure you can offer a lifetimes support to your puppy owners from training to behaviour issues. Learn all about whelping how to cope with breeches and other emergencies.  Don't even think about breeding until you know and can do all of these things.

As for when you can spay her anytime after her first season.

> my dogs are excellent pedigree,

They may well be but do you understand the pedigree?  Have you researched the lines & the outstanding winners & producers in these pedigree's? Have you acquainted yourself with the dogs coming from these affixes?

Anyone can put 2 dogs together & breed a litter, the real art is to breed health typy pups with sound temperaments and they are better than the generation before in terms of conformation, to know your pedigree so that you know which lines work well together and what ones don't.   How much do you know about conformation to know the faults you shouldn't be doubling up on that your bitch may have (Believe me your bitch isn't perfect, every dog has it's faults, its recognising them and trying to rectify the problem).

What breed are we talking about here? Not that it matters in any way shape or form. I just want to concur with what the others have said.

I don't breed, have boys but even so when looking into getting a new pup i research the lines on both sides and see if i like both and then i decide if i think they would be a good match. Also results on the health tests are very important as is the personality/temprement of the dam and sire.

> What breed are we talking about here?

The poster will not be able to say.

Thanks Isabel, done some digging and have my answer.

As the others have said it isn't about how often or if you can but if you should.

The purpose of breeding should be to benefit the breed gene pool by breeding healthy typical pups to the bred standard, having ascertained that the bitch meets pretty closely the requirements of the standard re health temperament and conformation. 

This needs to be done impartially.

Then you have to consider if you are suitable to be a responsible breeder, can you as near as any person can know be sure to commit to your pups for life.

Firstly, take a few years to learn about breeding, go to shows, join your breed club, check out the KC website, see if your dogs do well in the show ring and are reverred by others as being good breeding stock, make sure they have good hips, eyes, pass all breed related health tests, then you can just about think about breeding from your dogs.  Make sure you can offer a lifetimes support to your puppy owners from training to behaviour issues. Learn all about whelping how to cope with breeches and other emergencies.  Don't even think about breeding until you know and can do all of these things.

carrington i agree here too. i thought id done enough of my research, but u can never do too much, its just aswell i read (book about the bitch) from back to front, inside out and upside down, thats how i knew what mt girl was going through and i kind of helped the vets out before going, just prepared them for things,

> <SPAN class=htt>Response to</SPAN> kiera09 my dogs are excellent pedigree, have outstanding tempermants (both excelllent with my 2 year old daughter) i've always wanted to breed,ive a big house with a massive garden (plenty of room for pups!)

Keira - from this response, are we to understand that you propose to KEEP all the puppies which you are thinking of breeding?

This is not really a good idea, you know!

I sincerely hope that you are researching the possibility of breeding from your bitch and haven't already done so - if you are still researching, please go to the breed club (you will find details if you click on "breeder" at the top of this page) get to know reputable breeders, talk to them - find out what is the average size of a litter - a friend had two litters from her bitch of the same breed as yours and on each occasion the bitch had 12 puppies.   And on each occasion, despite the fact that this was long before the recession hit in, she still had 3 puppies from one litter at age 16 weeks and 4 from the other - and this was a reputable breeder with good contacts within the breed.

She says she can still smell the poo!    I would also hasten to add that the litters were 3 years apart - and the last litter was 4 years ago!

If you are thinking of breeding commercially (and to my this is abhorrent!) - then you are definitely on the wrong forum - and also thinking of it at the wrong time in the current financial climate.

Blimey, Lokis mum, she can still smell the poo four years on ?!!! Did she never clean it up lol ?!! Or perhaps you mean the smell has left a permanent impression on her mind ?  Knowing the breed we are talking about here, I can well imagine that with a litter of 12 even the most respected breeder could have problems finding suitable homes for them all.... especially now with the current economic climate.
In answer to the OP's question I would say not to breed a bitch more than 3 times and if a c-section has been needed, never again even if it was for a first litter - just my opinion.

I number many of this breed and their owners and breeders as my Friends but would not have the courage to breed a litter of them myself

The high chances of large litters, the added extra burden that if you get the homing wrong and the dogs guarding traits are accentuated/encouraged a returnee might well have a one way ticket to the vet, the fact they would attract the wrong kind of owner because they are seen as a guarding breed etc.

Not to mention the sheer hard work to rear such a litter, with the space requirements alone.

To breed this or similar breed it is even more essential that the would e breeder is experienced, and knowledgeable and belongs to the breed fraternity.

Interesting that the original poster hasn't come back on this thread ....  Maybe the replies aren't what she wanted to hear?

> Did she never clean it up lol ?!! Or perhaps you mean the smell has left a permanent impression on her mind ?&nbsp;

I think she means that the smell is permanently imprinted on her brain!!!  Her home is immaculate - (which is why she likes dobes - they don't shed like labs or aussies!!) - no little tufts of hair floating around in her house!

sorry I no its bin a while, my laptop had to be totally restarted! Im thinking of breeding my dogs, ive done ALOT of research n still reading more! I love the breed and have money if anything sld go wrong

are they hip scored? tested for vw?

yer hips good n vw clear, any advice on mating as my bitch came on today! thanx

get an experienced stud whos pedigree is complimentary to your bitches, this will take considerable study, more time that you have if her seasons started.

came on what?? what do you mean? (can't find the puzzled smiley soz)

i think she ment came in...

came in where?

It just dropped she means started her season cycle?

yes, came in to season

> In answer to the OP's question I would say not to breed a bitch more than 3 times and if a c-section has been needed, never again even if it was for a first litter - just my opinion.

Totally agree about not risking a second section.  Have had this happen to bitches on a first litter, and they were never allowed a second.  Spayed and kept as much loved pets, I would never want to purposely put a bitch through that twice.

Is it your own dog, the 'stud' you plan to use? as you said earlier you have two dogs? Just because you have a male and a female doesnt mean that they are compatible to each other. You need to find a stud that complements your bitch. You are very lucky if you have that at home.
This should have been planned long before now and the fact that you are having to ask even basic questions on here shows that you are not ready to have a litter. I would at least leave it until the next season when you can have researched and swatted up so you have a vague idea of what you are doing.

Eta. If it is your own stud that you are using- please dont just 'leave them to it'- you need to keep them seperate until she is ready and treat the mating in the same manner you would if it was another stud, otherwise you will not have accurate due date for the litter and all sorts of problems can occur if you dont supervise the covering.

Don't forget that now the puppies can't be docked they aren't as easy to sell.

> came in where?
>
> It just dropped she means started her season cycle?

oh that tiggled me!!!

Are you sure she is in season as you mentioned she had her last season back in January ?

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1036232;hl=#pid1036232

any advice on mating as my bitch came on today

Exactly what 'advice' are you after as being more specific may help ?

Have they both been tested for DCM, TgAA, PHPV & ED as well ?

lol! yer sum people tickled me aswell! yes shes cum into season! Jus so u all no I've done ALOT of research -Yer I no u cnt dock tails anymore (unless they're gunna be a working dog) my dogs are vw clear n both hip scored.(Im not stupid!) Im only askin questions on here coz I thought I'd pick up some valuable advice from all u other breeders, but all I seem to get is attitude!
As she only had a season a few months ago does anyone think she might not be fertile?As ive heard this, thanx

At the RR World Congress we had a talk about canine reproduction and the speaker said that cycling at less than 5 month intervals reduced the likelihood of conception.

> Yer I no u cnt dock tails anymore (unless they're gunna be a working dog) my dogs are vw clear n both hip scored.

It is only working gundogs & terrier that can be docked-your breed are neither of these so cannot be legally docked in the UK.

So have they both been tested for DCM, TgAA, PHPV & ED as well  ?

Just as an aside-can you write in English & not text speak Thanx

I didn't know that-well you learn something new everyday! No they havnt been tested for those - I think the hip scoring and vw testing are the important ones - I no you're going to say its irrasponsable etc, but they're not essental (so I've been told!)

Wouldn't you like to be responsible?

MM, you can lead a horse to water etc etc etc :-o :-(

Obviously not!

> No they havnt been tested for those - I think the hip scoring and vw testing are the important ones - I no you're going to say its irrasponsable etc, but they're not essental (so I've been told!)

If one of your dogs/puppies dies from DCM or develops one of the other conditions you might then think they are essential.

If any of your puppies develop any condition that can be tested for & you haven't tested then you will be legally liable & could end up in court &/or paying huge damages to the owners. There's a lot of legal president for this.

> I didn't know that-well you learn something new everyday

I thought you had done a lot of research in the health issues of Dobermanns

> MM, you can lead a horse to water etc etc etc :-o :-(

Sadly that is all too true ':-('

> I no you're going to say its irrasponsable etc, but they're not essental (so I've been told!)

It does seem to me Kiera you only accept the things you have been told that suit your way of thinking and if I am right the members on here giving you the responsible and correct advice may as well save their breath, am I right? I do hope not and it is a case that I have just miss read your intention.

MM is spot on, there are precedents about poor health testing and the onus is on the Breeder to be aware of ANY such incidents that can occur and to act accordingly....otherwise it is mia culpa(unless of course you warn all your puppy buyers that the pup may go on to develop an illness that was not investigated or tested for, by you) You can look up mia culpa on google :-o

Ofcorse I want to be responsible,thats why im asking questions on here!
Its my first time breeding-everyones gotta start somewhere! I'll be asking my vet about these other tests-he has never mentioned to me-and Ive heard that the vw testing and hip scoring are the important ones,I just didnt think.
Thanx for you're honest opions,im not a bad person-honestly!