> Sorry I can't move to say I agree with killing pups or any animal for convenience or because it "may" be hard to find it a home.
>
> I can't really add more to my views on this thread as I have made my comments and been sad to read this one.
> I will move to another thread now.
>
> I wish the mum and the new owners a long and happy life together and a succesful outcome for them whatever they decide re the pups.

<sigh>

You have obviously never seen the RSPCA program, in which there was a young Great Dane, handed in with the owners male Great dane. Both were in terrible condition, starved to the point almost of death & yes the bitch was in whelp. True to the RSPCA tradition they allowed the bitch to whelp & keep the whole litter of 7 puppies. The morning after the bitch whelped the kennel staff found that 3 of the puppies had "disappeared", they thought they had been stolen. The next morning another puppy had disappeared & they finalised realized that the bitch had eaten her puppies-despite a local GDBA breeder telling them this never happens. The remaining puppies were hand reared & were rehomed at 8 weeks the mother stayed in the kennels for several months.

What a pity that the RSPCA didn't do what we have done when a bitch is in such terrible condition-C section & culling all the puppies, the bitch would not then have killed & eaten her own puppies not once, but twice & unlike litters bred by responsible breeders 99 % of rescue leave the bitches on their own with their puppies & puppies being killed by their mothers is not unusual occurrence.

Sorry but anyone who thinks that every conceived puppy should be born, reared & sold(& even rescues "sell"their puppies.)is living in a fantasy world. I've seen the results of many such "father"unknown litters at our Dog Club over the years, GSD x Rottie, a multitude of Staffie crosses etc etc All from rescues & without exception all with some quite serious problems(behaviour & health)

It is horrible to cull puppies and it would take and extremely strong person to cull them. BUT to think of it in a different way, the puppies may suffer in new homes get passed from pillar to post and then rot in kennels for months similarly to a dog with a great illness, we would like to keep the dog alive for our own sake we love it BUT to save a dog from suffering the kindest thing is to PTS/cull. Suffering is suffering emotional or physical pain. Unfortunately us humans cant help but empathise with another species and its a huge weakness.

Sorry I can't move to say I agree with killing pups or any animal for convenience or because it "may" be hard to find it a home.


ANNM172 - I can totally see where you are coming from, believe me all of us on here are animal lovers.

But, once you actually go to a rescue centre, and see all of those faces looking at you, when you look at the figures of all the dogs that are put to sleep due to no homes available and their time being up, that is when it hits you, really hits you, reading about it really doesn't cause much of an effect, going and looking at those faces many of them on death row that's when it makes you feel that unplanned litters with no waiting lists shouldn't be bringing more burden to something which is actually collapsing around us as I speak, rescues are literally at breaking point, all these dogs were once beautiful puppies, often bred without thought.

There are thousands and thousands of registered pups every single year, we can at least keep numbers on these and the KC have put many rules in place to try to protect bitches and dogs (we know it is not perfect) we don't even know the numbers of unregistered and crosses being thoughtlessly bred.

It truly is nothing against crosses, most of us grew up with crosses, many of us have them, they are loved just as much as any other dog. It's the fact that it is another hap hazzard litter, in a world where many dogs are just treated as cute accessories and then once hitting the adolescent stage crosses and pedigree alike are thrown rescues way.

If an unplaned litter can be terminated no matter who the parents are, that needs to be the first thought, I guess you can only really feel that way, once you look into the eyes of the doomed. None of us can see the future, we don't know for sure how any pup will truly end up, but sometimes we can choose before the pups are even born into this world. As I said previously I fully understand why some just could not do this, they think cute puppy, I respect your opinion and feelings towards this issue, but many of us can see the bigger picutre and believe me it isn't pretty at all. :-(

What a sensible post.

This is a very emotive subject and one which has many views, all bearing equal merit for the many reasons already given by all sides.

I hope in the case of the bitch about which this thread started that if gestation is allowed to go full term the sire was not a breed, cross or mongrel substantially larger than the bitch as this could naturally cause severe problems.

IMO should a bitch be in whelp through accident and without background knowledge, then she should be injected to stop the pregnancy or, if too far down the line for that, then neutered.

That said were the bitch allowed/required to go on to whelp live pups I personally would not cull them except for reasons of their health such as birth defects.

I have to ask: WHY are these rescues/pounds not spaying these dogs before they ever leave?
Dogs can be spayed until they go into labor. Even after that. There are c-sections done on emergency all of the time. Yes, it is a bit harder on the bitch-but not as hard as raising a litter.

Someone already said something like this, but I reiterate- if you can't make tough, life and death decisions, you have no business breeding dogs. Or maybe even owning one. I have seen so many poor dogs suffer horribly because an owner "just couldn't put them down".

And as another said-go to a pound and walk those isles. Look at those faces. To kill puppies that have never breathed seems nothing campared to killing those faces. Yet, even that has to be done sometimes. It's reality! Not some fuzzy dream world!

I have worked in vet clinics as well as shelters. I know how it all feels.

annm172 no one is suggesting the pups are in some way worthless because they are crosses, i think many/most of the forum have had crosses at some point in the past. rather people are concerned for them as they will 1) be harder to home into great homes and 2) take up homes that adult rescues could take.

that being said if the owners of the bitch know of a number of good homes available why not? but say they know of 5 definate homes and she has a litter of 9- is it best to put the other pups to sleep before they know their in the world or wait till they are older if they still can't find homes? its a terrible decision to make but perhaps the most caring in its way.

I would disagree with the 7-8 weeks in Toy breeds I'm afraid! I would have mine till 10 weeks, but we have lots of people to meet outside and in the Surgery, held in hands of course, not on the floor! But I would rather know, especialy if they're on the tiny size, that they contiue to develop and grow problem free. There's nothing to stop car trips to supermarkets etc for socialisation.

> To kill puppies that have never breathed seems nothing campared to killing those faces. Yet, even that has to be done sometimes. It's reality! Not some fuzzy dream world!
>

TiaLee,

since you replied to me, then FTR note that I said I would not cull newborns except for health reasons   If born they have breathed and if I had chosen to allow them to be born, however accidental the circumstances of the mating, then I personally would not advocate culling.

I agree that rescues should not be passing on dogs which haven't been neutered but then it's easier to tell in a male than a bitch and perhaps the original owner handing this girl in lied .....

Distressing though rescues are, and I have personal experience of them, the fact is that many people would rather bring a puppy into their home than an older dog, whether that dog be 6 months, 2 yrs, 6 yrs, 12 yrs - it takes a special home to take a gamble on what are often unknown backgrounds or in the case of dogs at say 5 years + the worry of impending health issues or early loss through age if older still.

While the sad truth is that it's better nobody adds to the number in shelters, it doesn't necessarily mean that pups wont have a better chance of finding homes and that without having deprived an older dog of one.

Sad, definitely, but true :(

There are a number of rescue societies that PTS dogs that are difficult to rehome anyway, it is not a new situation it has always been thus.

It is nothing to do with pure breed or cross breed or really even the breeders, it is a case of too many dogs for the available space, I believe that the situation with cats is even worse.

If you have no where to home a dog and not enough money to feed it what would you do, turn it out to fend for it's self or give it a peaceful end. Culling is part of good husbandry and always has been, animals that can't be homed have to be dealt with and not all can be kept forever in kennels.

It is totally impossible to rehome all unwanted dogs in suitable homes, and IMO it is better for the dog to meet a calm and kind end than to finish up being rehomed again and again or to an unsuitable home until someone calls a halt.

Lets face it for every pup of this type that is born and allowed to mature there will be another dog somewhere, probably over the age of 2 that will be PTS, it is not an easy choice but there is no option.

As to breeders, of course, some will continue breeding there is a demand for dogs, the better ones will only breed when they have a list of people waiting but other will breed because they can or they think it will increase the bank balance, most these pups will be sold to apparently suitable homes but a high proportion will still, for one reason of another finish up in rescue.

I've answered my own post to avoid causing offence but the truth is I'm not sure why I am being replied to since I've offered advice re the OP and clarified my thoughts to Ann who was concerned about the views of some posters re culling pups. 

They are my views, I am entitled to hold and share them and that's it - I see no point in repeatedly explaining them.
Other than that I have nothing to add so would anyone caring to comment to the OP or anyone other than me use the appropriate 'reply' button

Thank you :)

Sorry Terry was not replying to you I always use the bottom reply button, perhaps I should not but go back and click the one under the first post, it is normal on most forums to use the bottom button and I do it without thinking, will try to remember in future when I am on this forum as it can be confusing.

I was I suppose replying to the thread in general and no one in particular.

Not just you or just this thread Nova - it's happening a lot on a lot of threads to many posters, not only me ;)

Ideally everyone would use the correct reply button but I guess if used to a different system on other sites it's easily done.  I try and keep replies to the correct person but I'm sure I've hit the wrong posts before too :)

The grumps today are catching it seems (I blame sis!)

>I should not but go back and click the one under the first post

Only if you're actually replying to the first post. This forum's designed to work by clicking the Reply button on the post you're answering, however far down the thread that is.

It's been causing a lot of confusion just recently!

> The grumps today are catching it seems (I blame sis!)

I'm sure you've read front page of DW and can guess why I'm in a 'high dudgeon'. or  "Up to a note" as Maw always says.

Spat on it for you - even the online version (way too messy eugh - lacked forethought)

Chin(s) up sis - easier said I know :(

Problem is sometimes you are not replying to a particular post but to the thread in general. If you do not read the thread until it has reached 20 plus posts you may wish to voice your opinion or find there are several posts that stimulate a reply and TBH I think many of my posts would fall into this category - I am just adding my thoughts to the discussion in process.

Oh dear Tooolz just read it.. scared to comment :-(  is it true?     Not good coverage for the breed sadly.

Just noticed a thread on it Tooolz.. Count to ten and gives us the low down :-)  if you can.

Can someone tell me how you know who has pressed what reply button?

I just randomly press any reply button as i know my comment will be tagged on the end of the thread and if my message is in refernce to a particular comment i write the members name at the start of the message.

Please tell me if im doing wrong as i wouldnt like to mistakingly offend someone :-)

>Can someone tell me how you know who has pressed what reply button?

If you click on 'Forum' you get a list of notifications of who's replied to your posts - clicking on the notification takes you directly to that reply. So when it's got nothing to do with anything you actually wrote, it gets very confusing!

I see Teri's put up a handy post about it. :-)

Aah now i get it. I wondered what those notifications were lol :-)  Thank you

Although..... what happens if you just want to make a general comment that is not aimed towards anybody on the board? You have to click reply to add your message so do you just click reply to the last message on the thread?? Sorry to confuse and go off subject!

I have to ask: WHY are these rescues/pounds not spaying these dogs before they ever leave?

A lot of the time it will be a money issue -too expensive.

> Although..... what happens if you just want to make a general comment that is not aimed towards anybody on the board? You have to click reply to add your message so do you just click reply to the last message on the thread?? Sorry to confuse and go off subject!

That was my point, a good deal of the time you are not replying to a person but the whole thread, I am now a bit confused how you post a general comment.

Hi Nova

I reply to the OP for general comments usually :)  I opened a thread HERE on the subject of replies to avoid this thread going off topic (replies and problems re them have cropped up on a few unrelated threads recently)

HTH, Teri

Thanks Teri for the link but I am more confused now, I had wondered why some threads do not make much sense I would think that is because people are jumping all over the show. OK for the person you are replying to but for everyone else a bit muddled. However I will try to get it right in future, guess if it is not a reply to someone in particular then to click the OP button would be best, or would it.

> guess if it is not a reply to someone in particular then to click the OP button would be best, or would it.

yes. and i like to try and quote what i'm replying to to make it obvious to readers and the poster your replying to.