If abitch comes into breed rescue and then once its in its new home its found it had been pregnant when it came in.......whats the protocol?? New owners eminently sensible and capable and prepared to do whatever required but undoutedly they will be cross breeds as previous owner didnt have male of same breed! Do you think its best to cull at birth? Would you leave bitch with just one pup? Any thoughts?

I rescued a small X breed bitch from the local rescue home
after a few weeks it became obvious she was in pup, the rescue home told me that they would give me any support I needed.
A few weeks more and my bitch gave birth to 5 beautiful puppies at 10 weeks all had been rehomed, some homes found by me and some by the people at the rescue, they then spayed my bitch free of charge. Happily ever after for all concerned.

To cull the puppies just because they are X breeds doesn't seem like a valuable reason to me.

It depends upon just how far through the pregnancy is - immediate spaying would be the most sensible method, especially if the bitch is not in a good condition to be able to carry a pregnancy through to full term.    Also, depending upon the breed of the bitch/temprament wise - not knowing what the father would be, how easy would it be to home a litter - and what size might the litter turn out to be.  Again - would the health of the bitch enable her to rear a litter?  

My feeling about leaving a bitch with one pup would be that the pup would not then learn the "normal" pup behaviour from its siblings - so might be okay if it is going to stay with the same family, but might not be good if it is going to be rehomed at 8-9 weeks of age.

Margot

If not viable to spay immediately, then, with the enormous amount of unwanted dogs in rescue at the moment (in my area mainly poorly bred pedigrees, mongrels or crossbreeds)  I think that culling and leaving the bitch with one pup is a very responsible idea.

Probably leaving two pups would be a better idea from the point of view of social development.

i agree with the others to see if an immediate spay is do able. should it not be the new owners nnd the rescue might be able to scout around for people looking for a pup. if they get definate bookings then with luck they can avoid culling, or at least reduce the scale. regrettably culling of some of the pups might be needed :(

Yes I agree if she can be spayed then it should be done for her welfare.  Rescues are really struggling both in the number of dogs coming through but also financially so that is also a good reason.

New owners eminently sensible and capable and prepared to do whatever required 

In that case it has to be down to the new owners and only down to their decision no matter what others may think the rescue included, I don't think it matters whether the pups are crosses or of the same breed with no papers, they will need the same care and the same vetting of owners.

Myself I wouldn't breed anything that wasn't up to standard and KC reg, so the answer is easy I would have the pregnancy terminated without a second thought.

However, not everyone is as cut throat, the breeding has happened the pups are on the way and with a new owner only they can decide, it is often too much of a burden and moral stance for some to terminate, I can understand that too.  You state they are capable, sensible and prepared for the hard work so if they wish to put the work in and have the pups lives in their hands to make sure they are properly homed, that is now their right, they did not do the deed, they can only do what feels right to them. IMO if they were to have the litter they may as well keep the whole litter, if they can not face termination, they certainly can not face culling all but one or two pups.

I think this thread is upsetting.
Having grown up and had my introduction to dogs via cross breeds who needed homes for one reason or another I find it awful that a decison to cull or not is based on parentage- i know I will get shouted down for this view.
I am guessing if the new owners have now discovered the bitch is pregnant she may well be quite far along so maybe the option of a termination jag may have passed.
My sister once rescued a bitch from a pound who had a litter of five pupsa few weeks later- all of whom she homed carefully into loving forever homes.
If the owners are happy to run with this I applaud them and would agree spaying the bitch free of charge and possibly the pups too would be a responsible thing to do.
I learned how to care for dogs, the love they give, the fun of agility and obedience and beneffited from the companionship from a selection of mongrels who were loved no less than my pedigree pooches now.

PS - Can I ask seperately what I should be worried about re a single pup - I have just bred my first litter and have only one pup . What should I be watching for?

Annm172

Yes - I totally agree with you - this thread is extremely upsetting.   Once upon a time, homes would have been found for the litter with very few problems - but in today's climate, things are very different.   For a start, no-one knows the sire's parentage/temperament/background - and how many responsible families would risk an unknown dog with children?   

With the current economic climate, Rescues and Pounds are inundated with dogs that have been abandoned/given up by people who have lost jobs and/or homes and very few people coming forward to offer forever homes - and these puppies would sadly just add to the numbers.   What sort of lives are we going to condemn them to?   A lifetime in kennels?    Maybe being moved from home to home?

I made the initial comment about the mother keeping a single pup.   You have bred your litter carefully for temperament (or I would hope you have :D !!) and one puppy is going to be spoilt by mum, and by you - it could well turn out to be one spoiled puppy :) - but this will not in itself be a problem.   We cannot say the same thing for a puppy of uncertain parentage.

Its extremely distressing that this poor bitch has been allowed to become pregnant by the original careless owners - full marks to the people who have taken her in, and who are taking on the responsibility of what to do with her now - they are faced with a horrible predicament not of their making.   And taking the responsible step isn't a happy decision to have to take.

Margot.

PS - Can I ask seperately what I should be worried about re a single pup - I have just bred my first litter and have only one pup . What should I be watching for?

Pups learn a lot about canine behaviour and interaction from their litter siblings, which is one of the reasons why they shouldn't leave for their new homes before 7-8 weeks, even when they are fully weaned.  An experienced breeder will know and understand how siblings behave towards each other and will do their best to simulate as much of this as they can.  They will also make sure that the dam spends perhaps more time with a singleton that they might do with a larger litter as she wil also teach a singleton a lot.

I reared a singleton last summer and he was far more time consuming to me than a larger litter would have been but because of the extra effort I put in, he has grown into a well adjusted pup with good canine communication skills. :)

Sam posted New owners eminently sensible and capable and prepared to do whatever required which is why I suggested keeping just one puppy.

Our GSD rescue fortunately hasn't had any in whelp bitches recently, but(& I've been well & truly"got at"in the past for this)if this does happen, they an elective C section is done(if possible)& the bitch is spayed. GSD crosses with unknown father's are very often not suitable as pets & end up back in the rescue if the new owners cannot cope.

It sounds very hard & cruel to take a neo natal or pre natal life, but the welfare of the bitch must be the first concern & IMHE in whelp GSD bitches handed into GSD rescues are in terrible condition & some are no more than puppies themselves.

We have to consider the possibility of the bitches having one of the major health conditions of GSDs as they are always poorly bred examples. The last bitch that came in in whelp was 8 months old & when the elective C section was done that 14(yes 14)puppies were huge & the bitch(in the opinion of the vet)woud have died in labour because of her extremely poor physical health & condition.

Sorry if this upsets people, but there are way to many dogs being bred & to add to the problem, taking away homes from older dogs, who would be passed over for baby puppies isn't the way to go.

Margot

I know there are problems finding homes but whilst they are young it probably could be done.
It's a long time since I went to a dogs home- I always want to bring them home.
I hope the owners manage well and are given support if they do decide to let her have the pups and maybe help towards neutering them at least.
We often forget the other side of the fence- I wish there was more I could do to help

Re my single pup - She probably will be a bit spoiled although to be honest I think any pups here always will be- but in a nice way.

> Pups learn a lot about canine behaviour and interaction from their litter siblings, which is one of the reasons why they shouldn't leave for their new homes before 7-8 weeks, even when they are fully weaned.  An experienced breeder will know and understand how siblings behave towards each other and will do their best to simulate as much of this as they can

What should I be doing? I do nudge her slightly when feeding occassionally as though another pup is there but other than that I have left her pretty much with mum other than sneaking cuddles.

What should I be doing?

Ask your mentor to show you.  It's difficult to explain if you haven't seen a litter interacting.  But certainly don't leave it all to the dam.

>......... problems finding homes but whilst they are young it probably could be done.

The essential word here is PROBABLY.    I know of several breeders who thought that they had sold all their puppies, only to find that maybe one or two potential owners' circumstances have changed and it is no longer financially viable for them to have a puppy at this particular time.    I also know personally of three rescue kennels who would have had no problems in finding "cute puppy homes" a year ago who are now struggling to rear puppies, now of 13 weeks (4 cross labs), one of 12 week terrier crosses (3) and one 16 week rottie cross (2).   Thats just 9 puppies that I know of.    These kennels don't have the staff to take on the necessary training that these puppies will need - they do their best, but its not really enough.  Others will tell the same tale, I am sure.   Sadly, it is a fact of life now :(

I agree Lokis mum.  It's time for people to wake up and smell the coffee!  We don't live in a fluffy world where, unfortunately, we can save all the dogs that humans have let down.  There are just not enough time, money or homes wanting these dogs for that.  :(  Those of us involved in rescue have to harden our hearts and do what is best for the dogs, and that's not to leave them in kennels for months on end. :(

It's a cruel world out there.  And the best lessons are the hardest ones learned :-(

I couldn't PTS personally myself.  They would be sold at a very nominal fee so hopefully wouldn't be much of a problem with the recession at the moment as long as the people owning them could afford everything else that owning a dog entails.

> I know there are problems finding homes but whilst they are young it probably could be done

Yes and what of the older dogs????

> I couldn't PTS personally myself.  They would be sold at a very nominal fee so hopefully wouldn't be much of a problem with the recession at the moment as long as the people owning them could afford everything else that owning a dog entails.

& how do you know that ? There are some very convincing liars out to get a cheap puppy. You are lucky in that one of your breeds(Pom)is very popular & the other is quite "rare". If you had a lab, GSD, Dobe, Rottie, Staff etc then the prospective owners are very hard to home & then they are taking the homes from the older dogs.

(one reason I'm not pro importing mongrels/crossbreeds from Ireland etc)

> I know there are problems finding homes but whilst they are young it probably could be done
> Yes and what of the older dogs???? <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

I believe the older bitch already has a home and it is the forthcoming puppies that are in need

I think Brainless (what a mis-nomer!!) was referring to the other older dogs who are languishing in Rescue, waiting for their forever homes :(

Sorry I had replied just re the situation in this post not the wider issue.
Oldies are a problem- My mum refuses to have another dog now in case she dies (76) I have been trong to convince her to take in an oldie which would be ideal- A warm cosy fire and companionship for both- she is not sure yet though

it is the forthcoming puppies that are in need

You're right but they will just be adding to the ongoing problem. :(

> I find it awful that a decison to cull or not is based on parentage- i know I will get shouted down for this view.
>

Not from me you won't.

Seems it's too easy to change your mind about a dog after you have one
How do we stop it though?

There have been times in the past when even pedigree litters have had to be culled because the puppies are hard to sell. It may be that this will happen again in the future. If a breed is not popular for any reason or is over bred so that many end up in rescues, then breeders of pedigrees may well have to consider this step. It is not one I'd ever want to take but it is none the less something every breeder has to think about at some time and decide how they will deal with puppies they cannot find homes for.

Seems it's too easy to change your mind about a dog after you have one
How do we stop it though?

I agree.  Unfortunately we now live in a disposable society where people change their possessions on a whim and dogs are just part of that. :(  And now there are those whose finances are so stretched that they can barely support their families and the family dog is the first thing to go - especially if it is an unruly adolescent.  My local rescue is full of young 'Kevins' who need owners with experience to sort them out before they can make reasonable pets and there just aren't enough of those sort of people around. :(

So we need to stop ill bred litters being produced by thoughless people........

> Oldies are a problem

I think Brainless was referring to older dogs ie anything from a few months old that is beyond the cute stage. 
There is a finite number of homes available.  Every new dog brought into the world potentially takes a home from those already waiting.

> There have been times in the past when even pedigree litters have had to be culled because the puppies are hard to sell. It may be that this will happen again in the future.

> breeders of pedigrees may well have to consider this step.

Or decide not to breed the litter ...

>Or decide not to breed the litter ...

often litters can already be on the ground and breeders are let down by those on their list.

back to the original post, if this breed is a cross of Sams then they are a specialised breed and even harder to place in the right homes, the kindest thing to do would be to spay or cull because if not placed in the right homes they will end up back in rescue as adults and will be impossible to home.

Personally I would wish to cull down to two pups as there are already far too many unwanted dogs in this world. However it will be very difficult to find a vet who is prepaired to PTS in the current climate where it is viewed as unethical to cull a healthy pup. A friend found herself in a similar situation a few years ago and it was next to impossible then to get a vet to agree to PTS the pups. After a full day of calling various vets we found a sensible and sympathetic practitioner who was willing to help.

Hope you find the right answer for this bitch and her new owner.

K

> I would wish to cull down to two pups as there are already far too many unwanted dogs in this world. However it will be very difficult to find a vet who is prepaired to PTS in the current climate where it is viewed as unethical to cull a healthy pup.

The same issue is currently happening in medicine with restriction of medications to over 75s for the same reason- Hope doctors continue to think like these vets...

Nor me JeanSW. I have been breeding dogs for over 40 years now and I have never ever culled, and I never would. Can you just imagine the horror of looking down on a litter of new born puppies and deciding which ones are to die, because that is the reality of culling. It's all very well saying the word but actually performing the deed is a different matter. You'd have to be a very hard sort of person to do something like that.

When i rescued Penny a chihuahua girl  back in 1998, the people the rescue were boarding with told me she was spayed and was 2 years old, exactly 2 months later she gave birth to a stillborn 1/2 westie pup,also our vet said she was nearer 10 years old not 2.I was furious at having to go through this, i did get apologies, but they can only tell me what the person who put her in rescue told them,which was the wife didnt like her, but the wife had westies so she must have know she had mated wither her dog/s.She was a lovely girl though and we had her for another 4 1/2 years.

> The same issue is currently happening in medicine with restriction of medications to over 75s for the same reason

The only issues I am aware of with the restriction of medications to the over 75 are those regarding abuse by over medicating but that is by the by as we are talking about animals not humans.  Although the theory of all deserving a life is good, in reality there is no welfare state for dogs that will ensure all have a home, health care and education. 

> It's all very well saying the word but actually performing the deed is a different matter. You'd have to be a very hard sort of person to do something like that.

I don't know about hardness.  I think it takes a person of the very kindest of heart to steel themselves to do this as you are quite right it would be terribly difficult.

It's all very well saying the word but actually performing the deed is a different matter. You'd have to be a very hard sort of person to do something like that.

That's a very unfair thing to say.  Vets have to make difficult decisions everyday.  I wouldn't call them hard - I'd call them responsible and considering the dogs before their own feelings. 
Most members of the public couldn't manage to work in a Veterinary Surgery, just as doctors and nurses can't collapse in a heap everytime they loose a patient - they wouldn't get out of bed in the morning!  I struggled at first but learned to adjust when I saw the alternatives...........

>It's all very well saying the word but actually performing the deed is a different matter. You'd have to be a very hard sort of person to do something like that.

Not hard - practical and realistic. If one can't deal with the idea of death one shouldn't keep pets at all, let alone breed them. Quality of life is more important than quantity - if the chances of finding a good, loving, permanent home are reduced (such as in the current recession, especially for large breeds) then culling must be a serious consideration.

> if the chances of finding a good, loving, permanent home are reduced (such as in the current recession, especially for large breeds) then culling must be a serious consideration.

I am sorry I completely disagree- If the chances of finding good loving homes are reduced the mating should be cancelled or delayed until a better outcome is likely and homes can be found. To breed knowing you are likely to cull pups is completely irresponsible and selfish.

Those anti pedigree breeders would have a field day with some of the comments on this thread

I am sure a lot of breeders are thinking twice but we are talking about an accidental mating here.

Re the accidental mating I agree accidents happen and I made some suggestions re neutering all pups when born and mum.
I disagree with the comments posted re culling of planned litters rather than changing plans.
I feel so strongly I had to post .

>I made some suggestions re neutering all pups when born

Neutering pups when born?

> Neutering pups when born? <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

Well obviously not as they are born

Being born and allowed to live long enough to be neutered as opposed to culling them. Giving new owners a voucher towards neutering them.

>Giving new owners a voucher towards neutering them.

Which new owners would that be? It's the lack of good new owners that's the problem!

> Which new owners would that be? It's the lack of good new owners that's the problem!

Sorry I can't move to say I agree with killing pups or any animal for convenience or because it "may" be hard to find it a home.

I can't really add more to my views on this thread as I have made my comments and been sad to read this one.
I will move to another thread now.

I wish the mum and the new owners a long and happy life together and a succesful outcome for them whatever they decide re the pups.

> I believe the older bitch already has a home and it is the forthcoming puppies that are in need

It is the older dogs already looking for homes that I am referring to which could be passed over for a cute pups who then in turn may end up in rescue when they turn out different to hopes, as there can be no idea how they wil turn out.

If the chances of finding good loving homes are reduced the mating should be cancelled or delayed until a better outcome is likely and homes can be found. To breed knowing you are likely to cull pups is completely irresponsible and selfish.

Those anti pedigree breeders would have a field day with some of the comments on this thread

I thought I had said all that I could say on this very sad thread.   However, I feel compelled to reply yet again to Annm172.

My response is :

(1) No GOOD breeder will breed with the knowledge that pups might have to be culled.   Yes, you are right, it would be irresponsible and selfish.

(2)   We are NOT talking about a pedigree litter in this instance - we are talking about a RESCUE bitch - and we do not know what condition she is in, and an unknown stud of a different breed.    To put the two together is completely irresponsible.

I, like many other people, have decided that in the present economic climate, I will not be breeding again.   And as I am rapidly drawing near the age of 75 when you suggest that I may be culled, I do not think it is likely that I shall ever breed again.

You are not replying rationally - you are guilty of the "fluffy" thinking that allows puppies to hang around in shelters for far too long, to deny oldies a place in a shelter because they are full of young, vigourous untrained dogs that have grown from the fluffy puppies that no one wants after they reach 14+ weeks.

To talk about culling a litter is absolutely horrible - but it is what responsible dog lovers do when faced with intolerable situations - which this is.    I would hate to have to do it - but believe me, if it had to be done, I would do it.   It would break my heart, and I know I I would have sleepless nights - but I would know that I had done the right thing.

Dito Lokis Mum, Very well said.  It's not anything anyone would want to do but is something that might just turn out best for the pups and other dogs in the long run.