I've recently starting taking the junior puppy class at our club (from 12 weeks to 6 months or thereabouts). I also plan to pass it on to someone with more experience asap, but for the moment they're stuck with me! Coming into the class in 2 weeks time is the most adorable little blue & white staffy, about 14 weeks I think they said. He and his owners came to watch the class last week, and I was a bit concerned - I think I'm right that staffies are a 'talkative' breed, but some of his mumbling and talking sounded like growling, he was also quite 'full on' staring and possibly growling at the puppy in the class who was near him. At one point his owner reached down to nudge him to divert his attention when he was a bit growly, and it looked like the staffie turned to growl at his owner too, though he might have just been startled at the nudge. I asked one of the other trainers, someone who works high level obedience, at our club meal tonight, and was horrified to hear her say that I or the owners should hold him in the down position until he gives up and acknowledges our leadership. Isn't this virtually like the alpha roll???? We run a reward based club and I have never in 7 years at the club seen anyone hold a dog down or roll them, some of the yappy ones get a squirt of water or something, but nothing worse. What I was even more shocked by was that the other 5 dog owners at the table saw nothing wrong in rolling a 14 week puppy and forcing him to submit.

So, I don't know if this puppy was growling and I don't know if he will come to the club or go elsewhere, so I know I'm being really vague. But if he does come to the club and growl at me, his owners or other dogs, what do I do? I have friendly spaniels, in the unlikely event of a growl from them, a simple 'uh uh' or a check at the lead will divert them and remind them of their manners. And I have no experience of growling at people, I've only ever had to deal with the 'normal' puppy problems like housetraining, over exuberance, mouthing etc. Help!

> horrified to hear her say that I or the owners should hold him in the down position until he gives up and acknowledges our leadership

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. What a stupid thing for them to suggest :( - what is it meant to teach the pup? - in the prescence of other dogs you will be slammed to the floor by the people you are meant to trust????? Highly likely to cause trust issues with both people & dogs :( :(

Sorry, I'm not that experienced with puppies, but would hazard a guesse at a 14 week old pup being grolwy & full on amongst other pups at being nothing more than play/lack of manners.

I remember taking Buster to his first puppy party, he was 14 weeks old. There was a 14week old rottie there (drawfed in comparison to Buster), but she was a feisty little madam. She spent the whole time barking/lunging and growling at Buster, constantly snapping at his face, but it was obvious that was her way of playing. Unfortunately for her (as she was after a game of rough-housing), Buster 'turned the other cheek' and did nothing other than occasionally look down his nose at her as if he was too dignified for all of that (LOL, who's he trying to kid!!!).

Sorry, I've no suggestions as to how this should be managed, I'm sure someone with experience can give you some tips, but I would be very suprised if the 14 week staffy was displaying anything other than full-on puppy behaviour.

That's what I thought! And I have never seen this trainer roll or pin a dog, or any of the others on the table, so it was so weird that nobody could come up with another idea! :-(

Staffys do talk a lot and can make all sorts of weird and wonderful noises :)  the ones next door to me sound lke something out of Jurassic Park!  LOL these noises do include lots of growly sounds as well :)

In your position I would be reading his body language as well as listening to the growling - does he look aggressive when he growls?  or is it possible he could have been feeling unsure of the situation and growling as a defence against what he perceived as a threatening experience? 

Like you I am horrified that experienced trainers would even suggest holding down a young pup until it gives up - or any dog for that matter!   IMHO it could well have the opposite effect to that expected :(

perhaps arranging some one to one time with these owners and some older stooge dogs might be benefitial? dogs who are used to puppies and are patient with moods and are not to full on themselves. if this particular pup was nervous and the other dogs at training were excitable then maybe its reaction was nerves?

it was a first meeting and doesn't mean it will be like this in future, play it by ear. i'm sure you have faith in your methods so trust them to win through and don't be tempted to even consider the violent suggestion.

I've not had much to do with training staffies, and I'm sure somebody here has much more experience!  But from what I've seen of them, they'll take most 'negative reinforcement' like squirty bottles and rattle cans more or less in their stride.  Wait and see how he is  when he's joining in, but if he looks a bit big for his britches try positive reinforcement for good behaviour rather than waiting for him to get it wrong and trying to correct it.  For instance, take along a really attractive treat, like some still warm sausages (keep them in a sealed bag if you don't want to be mugged by the other dogs!) and just get him to sit quietly while other dogs are walking past, not too close, and give him a treat for looking at his owner (and sausage) instead of looking at the dogs.  Teach a command like watch me, and give him a bit of sausage each time he looks up at Mum or Dad.  If he's a bit luke warm about it, find out what time he is fed (probably still at least twice a day) and see if he can come to class and do practice at home before a meal, so he's hungry and more inclined to cooperate!  I agree with everyone else - don't try rolling him!

Thanks! I did have it in my mind that staffies were one of the talkative ones. I guess if he's starting to grumble a bit about other puppies nearby I should just get his owners to distract with a treat for now. I forgot to mention the fairly important fact that they did mention he was attacked in the park recently (why do so many young puppies get attacked??) so he probably was worried about the proximity of the other dog. We shall see how he is if he joins the class in 2 weeks! :-)

It may be he was made fearful if he was attacked (hence one reason I loathe pinning, rolls, rattle cans etc as it's not fair). Talking to the owners after class is important to see if they can come up with a reason (eg like the attack) as in such a case it's more than likely fearful behaviour. You may do best to keep him on the end of the row of dogs and give him space, plus encourage the owners to feed him lots of food rewards (really nice stuff like roast chicken) just for being near other dogs.

Never ever let the dog be squashed as if anything it will only convince him that not only are other dogs dangerous, but their simple presence may mean his owners then become unpredictable.

If it goes on after a few weeks, I'd seriously consider suggesting a reputable behaviourist (ie one from say the APBC http://www.apbc.org.uk/ ) because it may be able to be helped ... wait too long and it may stay forever (the behaviour I mean, sorry typing quickly!! )

Lindsay
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