On another site I frequent it is common to hear posters complaining of resource guarding of food, often thought to be aggression by the poster.  The most common reason for this complaint in the first place is someone noticing the dog growls if the child is playing nearby while it eats. 

Often the following advice is given:  Place dog's food in bowl and teach dog to let you remove said food any time you feel like it.  This is to teach the dog that even the food you give it is actually yours.  Sometimes even children are supposed to get in on the act, hovering nearby to take the food.  It is quickly returned to the dog and often a much tastier tid bit is added to make the dog think this is a good thing. 

I have a hard time with the advice to take the dog's food away.  I was brought up in the olden days when food was given to our dog and it was for keeps and the kids better darn well leave the poor dog alone while he is eating.  Wouldn't taking the dog's food away just make him more certain it is a resource needing guarding?  How long does it take a dog to eat anyway?  Can a parent not act responsibly long enough, a few minutes for most dogs, to keep their small children away?  At worst, does letting the child help train the dog to not guard its food not place the child in great danger?

This is just my opinion but I believe I have seen similar opinions expressed here.  What do other people think?  If you agree, or not, can you give me links that will support either notion from a behavioural research point of view?  Links from someone or agency whose credentials in dog behaviour can be verified?  And not just from some anonymous poster on the web?

Thanks, I hope I have explained my question properly.

I do firmly believe that dogs ought be allowed to eat their meals in peace...

However, I also believe they should be taught to accept the occasional interference with food bowls because we humans are silly and will forget to add something, will walk past them... etc etc.

And it is my VERY strong belief that 99% of food bowl aggression issues are actually caused BY people repeatedly taking away food bowls or messing with them, to 'teach a dog who is boss'..

I teach my dogs using positive reward based training, so they already expect that interactions with me will be rewarding for them. I NEVER take away food bowls to do anything, preferring to add things to the bowl as it is on the floor or give the dog whatever ive forgotten later on after they have finished. I know I can take a food bowl off any of my dogs - but i dont need to do so, and i wouldnt teach a puppy to accept it by diving right in and snatching the food from them.

Instead with puppys if i walk past and i get growled at, i will monitor the issue - maybe its a one off, if it continues then ill make apoint of leaving an empty food bowl downa nd walking past it and dropping food in from a height (so that the dog is quite clear that food was dropped in - taking something away from a dog is a big deal and they care far more about 'you stole my....' than 'you gave me..' in that situation - just as i would be pretty peed off if someone snatched my purse, regardless of whether they then put a tenner in it and gave it back!)

If i have a dog that does have an issue around food then we work on that slowly, keeping it low pressure and crystal clear that people near food = good things. Never doing anything that can be misunderstood (so I wouldnt be putting hands in food bowls until the dog was happy with me standing near it, andi wouldnt stand near it until the dog was happy with me standing five feet away etc etc).

Unfortunately far too many people seem to think that takign something away and then giving it back teaches the dog to be good around food, even humans will react badly to having their plate snatched away mid meal, some will react surprisingly aggressively.

I once demonstrated this to a friend who was horrified and angry that her dog had 'dared' growl at her when she took a bone off her. Shed approached without warning and reached down and snatched the bone out of her dogs mouth and her dog had growled and snapped at her.

She sat on my sofa telling me how rude and nasty her dog had been, and started to eat her pizza.. so i waited until she had a slice half way to her mouth, leaned over without warning and snatched it out of her hand...

Well! She swore (v foul language) and actually raised her hand to hit me and then stopped herself and said 'oh!'... immediately realising my point (Shes used to mad behaviour from me).

If we humans will react by swearing and even body language suggesting physical violence... is it any surprise at ALL that a dog might react the same way!

Shes not done that to her dog since.. and ive not stolen any of her pizza since. (If anyone wants to try it, it really DOES bring home the level of outrage we feel and thus a dog feels at having something high value snatched away - dont try it with plated meals that involve pointy stabby forks and knives though. people get embarrassed at stabbing you in the hand with a fork!)

Very well put theemx, thank you, thank you.  Possibly what I need most is someone to articulate this for me, which I think you have done very well.  The "tenner and purse" anology is great.  OK if I keep this link to use sometime?

I'd still like some links too, though, if anyone can provide.  I did find websites of so called behaviourists advocating the take food away method.  Mostly I cannot check on their background or experience.  I want to be open minded as well so conflicting opinions and backup are welcome.

I had this problem for a while with my gsd about 6months old at the time. Was advised by a police trainer to remove the bowl and feed on the floor in different places, interupt the dog frquently take bowl away and return when I was ready. Result ... matters got far worse to the point that when i walked passed him when he had bone he jumped at me growling.
More advice this time from his breeder... reversed the whole process to some hand feeding and adding to his food as things improved.
This took altogether about a month to completly cure the problem 18months later I have a dog that is happy to be petted while eating and I can do almost anything I want around him when he is eating, as can the rest of the family.
I would never use the removal method should I have this problem again in the future.

Feel free to quote me, ive said the same elsewhere as well so i stand by it :D

I treat any 'behaviourist' who advises taking food away from dogs to prove anything with a huuuuuuuuuuuge pinch of salt (and preferably a ten foot barge pole at least!).

I have a dog that is very food aggresive.
She is very greedy and eats like she has not eaten before. she was like this at 8weeks when we brought her home.when i went to pick up her empty bowl she grabbed at my hand and took me by complete surprize at 8weeks old.
I rang the breeder she told me she was the greedy puppy in the litter.
She is now 3yrs old and just the same now,i just feed her in her own space away from other dog and we dont have a problem.
We have not made it an issue.
I do not allow her any bones or chew bones as i know she would get aggresive with it.
We do not have young children to worry about now but  i think if we did it could be a problem.
I did tell my vet when she was about 1yr old about the food issue,and she also said to me how would i like it if she took my dinner away.
I agreed with her as i feel the same way.
Its not ideal but its something we except as part of her personality.

I read 'Mine' by Jean Donaldson.  My dog started as a pup - my first posting on here was about the fact that she snapped when she was trying to get to hedgehog food that I had thrown over the fence to stop her eating it!!!!   She then started gobbling her food when I came near her bowl and then growling - even a snap if I was too close.   I followed the process of letting her know that I was slowly coming to the bowl with extras to put in - she came to accept that as long as I make my intentions quite clear.  I could never follow all the steps in JD's book.  I accept that she fears her food being taken away and leave her alone.  If I need to walk past her - the utility room is narrow, I can do it as long as I let her know what I am doing.  We have come to some sort of understanding.
She growled at me the other day after been given a new ball that you fill with treats and roll around.  I asked her to give it to me.  It was empty at this point.  Then I asked her to give it to me and gave her a treat for doing so.  Her instincts kick in so quickly.  I returned the ball with a few more bits in but was very careful to remove it when she had finished.  Can't risk the gdchildren picking it up.
Children and food is also a problem.  She knows that she is not supposed to clean the floor or take food off the children but the youngest is always trying to trick me and feed the dog from the high chair. 

Goldie - the fact that your dog eats as if she has not eaten before - gobbling is the first warning!

Hi Ceejay
She is a real glutton,she does not chew anything. even to just brush past her she will growl,holds her head firmly in the bowl,very stiff in her stance. she would bite me if i put my hand near her bowl,but i have no need to do that and make her worse.
The sweetest dog otherwise.

> She is very greedy and eats like she has not eaten before. she was like this at 8weeks when we brought her home.when i went to pick up her empty bowl she grabbed at my hand and took me by complete surprize at 8weeks old.
>

My pup was like this when I got him. He would launch himself onto his bowl and frantically bolt it down as quick as he could, not like the normal greedy puppy eating, it was shocking. He ate like this for the fist 2 days, so I fed him from then by hand, his bowl would be up on the side out of sight & I would take amall hanfulls for him to eat out of my hand. That progressed to me holding his bowl on my lap (I was sat on the floor) and taking out handfulls to give him. Next I would give him an empty bowl and drop handfulls in to it. That progressed to putting his entire meal down for him and adding tasty extras occasionally (chicken,cheese). Along with this, I was the only one permitted to be near him when eating as I didn't want anybody making any sudden movements/noises that may have put him on edge & more likely to tense. Gradually my OH & kids would be in the klitchen while pup was eating, on strict instruction to keep still & queit, over time they could gradually go about thier normal activities as I think it important for a dog to learn to eat & feel relaxed eating with normal family life going on.

He now is fantastic with his food, he still bolts it down but out of gluttony (LOL, he loves food) not out of fear of going without. He will try to steal food of my kids, but again, this is opportunistic behaviour rather than food agression - if he sees a chance & thinks he'll get away with it, he'll take it so this is something that is still being worked on (he only 19 months old) - the most important thing for this, I think, is to ensure the dog doesn't get the chance to steal in the first place as self-rewarding behaviour like that forms a strong habbit very quickly.

Despite being a complete food addict he is not protective of food in the slightest, often he will struggle to get the last few morsels of food out of his bowl (big mouth, big floppy lips, not compatible with getting tiny morsels of tripe from the bottom edges of the bowl)and he'll welcome my hand going in to pick up the bits & feed them too him (he does love to be pampered, LOL).
I beleive food aggresion to be from lack of trust, if the dog isn't 100% confident that it's food wont be stolen it will feel the need to guard it. When I saw my pup was so frantic with eating I was sure that handled wrongly he would be very protective of his food. Lots & lots of patience has made him trust the fact that human hands are there to feed him and if I need to take anything off him (ie, kong toy stuffed with food lookes like it may be damadged, needs taking away for inspection), he knows that he will get something even better instead so he never fears going without.
Bless him, it's such a funny sight to see this huge dog, sat waiting for a bit of chicken (Sunday roast, not intended for the dog!!), while my tiny little cat is sat next to him waiting too. I can feed the cat freshly cooked chicken with the dog sat next to her waiting for his bit, he's so good. I wouldn't allow the cat in the room while he was eating during the first few months as it would make pup tense up.

> I treat any 'behaviourist' who advises taking food away from dogs to prove anything with a huuuuuuuuuuuge pinch of salt (and preferably a ten foot barge pole at least!)

I'm with you, TBH what dogs need to learn is to trust & they won't if things are given & then taken away, regularly, they learn just the opposite IMHE.

When a dog realises that humans are a source of good things the trust will start to be built & I've only known one or two dogs that never learnt &these were all horrific cruelty cases from puppyhood & even with these a compromise was reached eventually.

In response to Goldie
Hi, Had Rott who was exactly the same, we now realise she was from a byb, got her at 7 weeks, 1st feed at home, went to stroke her and had 7 week scrap hanging from fingers making nasty noises ....we took the same action as you, ie fed on own, don't go near etc. think her problem was 7 puppies fed from 2-3 dishes and she had learned 'growl & snarl' and you get a bigger share.
Did find that she would dive on dropped food in kitchen etc but we ended up with an 'agreement' with her that if we said 'leave' before it hit the floor it was ours - if it hit the floor first it was hers :-) This even worked with bit of steak!.
Other thing that helped was tell her 'leave - back - sit' so she didn't have her head IN the dish if it HAD to be moved mid feed.
Chris

>think her problem was 7 puppies fed from 2-3 dishes and she had learned 'growl & snarl' and you get a bigger share.

That's exactly why I always feed my litters from individual dishes, and hold them still with my hands, from the outset. Pups never learn to compete for food and associate hands with being given food, not having it taken away.

I'd still like some links too, though, if anyone can provide.  I did find websites of so called behaviourists advocating the take food away method.  Mostly I cannot check on their background or experience.  I want to be open minded as well so conflicting opinions and backup are welcome.

There are papers I believe which give such info but they may be part of research articles which may not be available to the general public. I've got access like many other students to such papers so next time I'm searching I'll try to remember to at least check it out for you so that you can have it confirmed with names and titles of the paper. To be honest, very few if any reputable behaviourists will now advocate such an approach - it's a bit related to the dominance/pack leader theory (another good reason to keep well away from that theory) but also from some older dog people who have suggested it teaches the dog to respect the owner. And from some newer dog people who thanks to some tv progs, decide that dominance and making the dog submit win the day.

There are some good behavioural books around or coming out which won't advocate any taking away of the food, one is due out in December by UK behaviourists/researchers Rachel Casey and Emily Blackwell. There are also sites by peeps such as Dee Ganley who is a respected behaviourist from the US which may help to counteract:

http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/classicalconditioningchangesfoodbowl.pdf and Ceejay mentioned Jean Donaldson who again is very highly respected, along with people such as Dr Ian Dunbar.

If it helps, I'm doing an animal behaviour degree and our tutor who is also a highly experienced behaviourist is totally against any kind of food removal, as are  her  peers in the behavioural world.Also I'd only recommend now either these http://www.apbc.org.uk/ or these  http://www.apdt.co.uk/ for dog training and behaviour help as you are more likely to get up to date sensible handson help without dominance advice - but you would still need to double check each individual for yourself because in every organisation there may be the odd few who are a bit behind with either knowledge or learning...:)

Lindsay
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