I agree on that one, Alf was a quivering heap at an open show recently because he was sure the bitch next to him in the class was in season - she wasnt, but one they had at home was, I couldnt do anything with him !

I wouldn't show at an open show either but there's always the  'She must've just come into season this morning' excuse.   I would have bitches banned from being in season at open shows.

IMO  its a NO NO regardless of what show it is.Remember not all bitches are mated on 12th and 14th day either.

I used to work with a woman who showed a hound breed at Crufts and won BOB one year. In the group the dog standing next to her was in full season, and her dog was beside himself. The bitch got placed, all she got was some rotten remarks from other people in her breed about her 'bad handling' as the dog wouldn't stand still or move properly.

I've had my boys stand next to bitches in season at shows and never had a problem with them.  Maybe because they live with bithces and are used to the scent and know that it isn't always for them.  

Perhaps toy dogs don't get as wound up as scent hounds :)

LOL if only, I watch some of my friends with there dogs burling in circles and doing something resembling riverdance because of bitches in season. :)

>Yes Linda and it was well documented elsewhere that I did.

I wasn't having a go at you Christine. As you said, you were at the Club show where you kept Mia well out of the way of the males, only bringing Mia inside when it was your class. I was just stating that I know of several in our breed that have shown in season bitches. I can't comment on other breeds as I have no personal knowledge of them. It's not something I would personally do, no matter who the judge was, but that's my personal preference.

> ...but then everyone else in their breed does too! Just seems they have their own set of rules!
>

This seems to be common accepted practise in a large working breed, and done quite openly (well being short coated it is pretty obvious).

In my own bred it is frowned upon, but the very people who tut tut are often the ones whose bitches have come in on the way to the show ;)

Until the KC decide it is against the rules and exhibitors get refunds I can't really blame people showing their girls at crucial shows.

For example my present puppy won't start her champ show career until April when she will be 9 months and there will only be about 4CC level shows for her to go to as a pup.  Several of those are close together so she could well be in season and miss her chance of any puppy career.

I am not saying I would take her in full season, but if I really felt the need I might at the start or shortly after it finished if it were a judge or show I really wanted her to go to.

> Season are just the risk you take when entering a show with a bitch, as they can come in early or late.
> thats why i prefer to show a male

Seems the poor bitches owners get the raw end of the deal, they miss shows, have to wait around for the males to be judged first and then in the challenge for BOB the male is fresh and fruity for the bitch while she may have just been in Open, the bitch challenge and now the BOB challenge and flagging.

Any wonder more often than not the Males get BOB.

Maybe entry fees for bitches should be reduced?

Oh yes and in coated breeds bitches are often at their best coat wise while in season and loosing coat at other times. ;)

Also regarding how the bitches feel, mine are full of pep in season, it is just after for a couple of weeks that they are like wet rags and don't want to show.

All in all showing bitches isn't easy, so can be compared to the males being distracted but the girls.

A dog I bred used to bitch terribly on the benches and at shows, he was then used at stud for the first time at 6 years old and has never bitched since.  He now knows when the girls are ready and for him.

Maybe half the time that boys misbehave and bitches in season are blamed, it isn't that at all just males getting worked up over so many girls full stop, as they don't know what is what.

I don't think anyone has considered judges have to 'go over' these in season bitches, not pleasant, running your hands down legs that clearly have blood on them!!!!

You have started a good topic with this one.  My wife took one of my boys into a stakes class at a Champ show and unusually he played up and was very difficult to handle.  Afterwards we were talking to another person we knew in the ring and she let slip that the bitch she had in the ring had just come out of season.  Obviously our boy thought she was still in!!  This also explained the bad behaviour of another dog in the group competition at the same show.  In is unfair on all concerned so I don't think that people should do it.  Tiffy

Im with Brainless on this one..while I would refrain from taking a fully blown in season bitch to a show I would in the first couple of days and at the end. We do have all sorts of other problems with bitches and a huge part of thier show carrer can be wasted during seasons, maternal duties, loss of coat etc..the boys (As per usuall) have it easy by comparrison. I have taken bitches NOT in season to shows and had many an over sexed dog launch at them...it's just a case of taking the rough with the smooth I think. It can be costly as well, so I think that it is a case of asses on the day. If it is the first couple of days in or the last couple of days then as long as you make sure you bitch is not bleeding activley and keep her to one side I have no problem with it.
Aileen
In reply to Tify, how long after a season then do you think we should keep our bitches at home?

>> In reply to Tify, how long after a season then do you think we should keep our bitches at home?

If you don't own males or only experienced ones you have no way of knowing if your bitch is still going to be attractive to males, and in my experience some males especially those that live only with other males are terribly excited around any bitch. 

I have had the sex pests at some of my girls right in the middle between seasons, and those spayed too. and got accusing looks and being told oh your bitch must be in/due n season.

To be fair to the boys though at any given show there are bound  to be some bitches in season or just coming in or going out, after all there are around the thousand dogs at a champ show with more than half likely to be female.  So some boys will misdirect their interest

That's true Brainless, my bitch is pretty regular and I have had a friend tell me she must be due in season, when she was 3 months out of her last season and not due in for another 4 months! I just said 'no, I think your boy is just randy'! :-D

> I have had the sex pests at some of my girls right in the middle between seasons, and those spayed too. and got accusing looks and being told oh your bitch must be in/due n season.
>

Acquaintances of mine have a male Lab and he'll jump on anything regardless of whether it's male, female, neutered or not - in fact his preference is for castrated male Labs!  In fact the only one he'll not make a play for is my Mia, who isn't spayed!

I also would potentially take a bitch in the first couple or last couple of days to a show.

This could quite conceivably get ridiculous - if you have another bitch at home in season and your bitch has been with her she may well smell good too, so does that mean you shouldn't show any bitch whilst you have another bitch in season?!

My (experienced) boy is excellent at picking up on bitches a month before they're due in (then he loses interest again until they do actually come in) so maybe bitches shouldn't be shown for a month before their season either? And judging that could be interesting if the bitch is irregular or still establishing a cycle!

As Brainless says

> To be fair to the boys though at any given show there are bound  to be some bitches in season or just coming in or going out, after all there are around the thousand dogs at a champ show with more than half likely to be female.  So some boys will misdirect their interest

You could know your bitch is due in season soon but they're not actually in season yet, so you take them to a show only to find they come into season the next day....but the boys know! I did exactly that a few months ago - took a bitch to a show and wondered why the boys were interested and she was peeing a lot (it was a young bitch and hadn't realised she was due in), a day or two later she came into season. Definitely wasn't in season the day I showed her though - with the increased interest I checked!

>if you have another bitch at home in season and your bitch has been with her she may well smell good too

Personally I'd have bathed the show bitch before going (as usual) and have them sleep apart the night before to minimise the chances of that.

>You could know your bitch is due in season soon but they're not actually in season yet, so you take them to a show only to find they come into season the next day

But that's the point - you're not knowingly trying to nobble the 'oppositions' chances, are you? It's if you know your bitch is in season then she stays at home.

I've seen dogs at a show reacting to a woman at her time of the month   what would those who object to in-season bitches do?  Ban women from attending at that time too ?

I've had a dog really pester my bitch for no reason other than he had bad manners and was a randy fool - the owner persisted in telling me my bitch was going to 'come in soon'  - she didn't, she had her season 41/2 months later (9 month cycle)  I've also taken a bitch just in season to a champ show (outdoor show) and with all the precautions I took, no dog reacted to her.  Not even her oversexed half brother who usually made himself a real nuisance whenever he was near her.  It was the one time he completely ignored her, as did all the other dogs ;)  As for not nice for the judge going over a bitch in season, a wet wipe or two doctored with dettol/tcp will ensure no unpleasant occurance.

I do feel that owners of bitches get a raw deal, they are blamed for dogs' bad behaviour, whether they are in season or not, they have to miss shows because they are in season, they miss shows because they are having a phantom, they miss because they are out of coat because of their cycle and they miss because they've had pups - often up to a year because of recovering and lack of suitable shows.

Show dogs?  they don't miss because of a season, they're in season all year round!  Behaving badly? - blame the bitches - there must be one in season somewhere ;)  and as was pointed out before, going for BOB? have a nice rest while the bitches do their stuff and look your best while the poor bitch gets no rest at all.

Why not show dogs and bitches on different days?  That would be one way to avoid the problem, then you'd only have to worry about the women :)    

going to put my tin hat on now :)

>I do feel that owners of bitches get a raw deal, they are blamed for dogs' bad behaviour, whether they are in season or not, they have to miss shows because they are in season, they miss shows because they are having a phantom, they miss because they are out of coat because of their cycle and they miss because they've had pups - often up to a year because of recovering and lack of suitable shows.

That's why I don't consider showing to be anything more than an enjoyable hobby! ;-) When I was showing bitches I acepted that, if they weren't spayed, there'd be times when they came into season at inconvenient times, and I'd miss shows. C'est la vie. Having since shown dogs I can quite understand how infuriating it is, but that's the way it goes. If I want to be able to show all year round then I wouldn't show bitches - the choice of gender I show is up to me.

> When I was showing bitches I acepted that, if they weren't spayed, there'd be times when they came into season at inconvenient times, and I'd miss shows. C'est la vie.

I agree, that's one of things, as a bitch owner, that has to be accepted (if they are shown)

I don't show my girls in season, personal preference.

As the owner of both sexes, I too can see and appreciate both sides. My girls breeder has the most gorgeous/very strong boy who is very excitable around any bitches whether in season or not, and we respect this and keep the girls away from him until we are finished showing, then I have to go for a cuddle, he's  a gorgeous boy (I did offer her money with Menaces when we went to see our pup, and he was 10 months but she wouldn't sell :) )

Golden Retrievers seem to have a thing about Annabelle and she constantly gets attention from any GR boys at shows even not in season !!!!! I wonder why?

> I agree, that's one of things, as a bitch owner, that has to be accepted (if they are shown)

Me too, that is why we are now starting to show dogs as well as OH gets frustrated with the girls and their seasons.

In my own bred it is frowned upon, but the very people who tut tut are often the ones whose bitches have come in on the way to the show

It's not unknown for someone to mate a bitch in the morning and then bring her on to the show.  Benched right next to two males, it was very lucky they get on well or there might have been a fight for all the bitch owner knew with a bitch in full standing season next to them.  Two entry fees wasted because someone else was unsporting.

It's completely unacceptable to show a bitch in that condition.  We have owned both dogs and bitches, but mostly bitches, and it is just one of the things you have to think about when you choose to show a bitch.  I think bitches that have just come in are not usually a problem and our males usually show them little attention, but bitches in the middle to late part of a season are.

The only time my experienced male has ever seriously pestered a bitch between seasons was when she had an infection that only came to light in the days after the show.

Merlot, I wasn't trying to say that you should keep a bitch at home for a certain number of days after a season - I don't believe it is that clear cut.  All I know is that in the two years that my dog has been in the showring he has never reacted in the same way with any other bitch as he did in that class. As you say it is a case of taking the rough with the smooth and I guess this was one of the rough ones :)  Tiffy

>When I was showing bitches I acepted that, if they weren't spayed, there'd be times when they came into season at inconvenient times, and I'd >miss shows. C'est la vie.

>I agree, that's one of things, as a bitch owner, that has to be accepted (if they are shown)

I must say I find it strange that bitch owners are supposed to accept that they shouldn't show them when in season (not talking about full season or late stages) but dog owners feel they shouldn't have to accept that there will be bitches who will be distracting to their dogs.  

I wonder how people managed in the earlier part of the last century, did they expect bitches to stay at home if in season or if a kennel mate was in season?   After all it's written in every KC schedule that the mating of bitches in the precincts of the show is prohibited, it doesn't say that bitches in season are prohibited .

As only the very best bitches should be bred from, how are those with bitches to determine if a bitch is of a high enough quality to breed from, unless they show her often enough in Championship Shows to get a reliable opinion as to her quality?   How is this to be achieved if the bitch misses most of the shows owing to being in season? 

>I must say I find it strange that bitch owners are supposed to accept that they shouldn't show them when in season (not talking about full season or late stages) but dog owners feel they shouldn't have to accept that there will be bitches who will be distracting to their dogs.

IMO it's even worse than throwing bait around the ring and distracting the competition that way; at least that only distracts the other animals in the ring at the time, not in adjoining rings, or even the next day. I guess knowingly distracting other people's dogs and potentially spoiling their chances of success is just bad sportsmanship.

>IMO it's even worse than throwing bait around the ring and distracting the competition that way; at least that only distracts the other animals >in the ring at the time, not in adjoining rings, or even the next day. I guess knowingly distracting other people's dogs and potentially spoiling >their chances of success is just bad sportsmanship.

Perhaps in that case dog showing should only be for males and all the bitches should remain at home, after all, even the bitches who aren't in season are a distraction for many dogs ;) 

That'd be overkill, I think! :-D No, I'll stick with keeping my bitches safe at home when they're in season and only show them when they're more likely to do themselves justice ... fairly! :-)

> How is this to be achieved if the bitch misses most of the shows owing to being in season? 

How can a bitch miss most of the shows when she is in season for 3 weeks at a time(normal)?
Ok if a bitch is regular 6 monther then that is 6/7 weeks out of 52, what is wrong with the other 45 weeks?
Yes, sometimes you are at shows regularly during the peak showing time & it is possible to miss 3 or 4 shows in this time, that is pretty unlucky.

A bitch normally in season for 4 weeks, some bitches put on weight/lose weight/lose condition because of hormones.  In coated breeds the months after a season is when they drop their coat meaning they aren't showable until the coat grows in again, usually as the next season is approaching.  Add to that in a breed with few CCs many/most of the shows with CCs can be clustered in a few months.   Don't forget, for the show ring a bitch or dog needs to be in top physical condition and also well presented, very hard to do with a coated breed if there's no coat ;)

Rather than the 45 weeks to show a bitch you might, with a coated breed, have only 6 weeks twice a year during which she is presentable to compete at Championship Shows, despite being physically fit.  In a coated breed few judges will overlook a bitch with no coat ;)

> A bitch normally in season for 4 weeks, some bitches put on weight/lose weight/lose condition because of hormones.  In coated breeds the months after a season is when they drop their coat meaning they aren't showable until the coat grows in again, usually as the next season is approaching.

My eldest bitch does exactly this unfortunately, she is a nightmare to get back into show condition after a season and as you said just begins to look right and off she goes again!!!! (Roll eyes)

Said bitch is only now begining to get her coat back, guess what she is due in season again in 4 Wks (Sigh)

Thank goodness I am in a breed that on the whole only come in once a year and in the winter months at that.

I'm so lucky with my girl, she goes slightly fluffy just before a season, but she doesn't drop the coat at all. She lost her tail feathering and got a few bald spots when she had puppies, but was back in the ring and getting placed when they were only 10 weeks old!

My middle bitch has also just done this again :(   after a season and phantom/weight loss/coat loss I entered her in Crufts thinking she'd be about ready.  Nope, coat still coming through and colour improving.  Two weeks later and she's looking like a show dog, but there's no point in entering her in a show now as she'll be coming into season soon and has an uncanny knack of being at full flagging stage on the day of a show :(   I've all but given up on showing her :( 

Me too, I am thinking about spaying her and having done with it :)

However she is the one I would like to work in the future though as she is so steady and has such a stong natural ability  I am thinking this is the only way to go with her.

i think thats the chance you take when you enter a show, i have never and will never take my girl to a shoe in season , she means far too much to me to put her at risk

Try having one that comes in every four months as some of mine have done when young, they never have a coat.

Seriously showing a bitch in full season does not an enjoyable show day make, but missing a a particular judge or getting that last point for a JW when a bitch has just come in or only just finished, or some of the other greyer areas???

I am sure that this is probably whey then KC does not rule that bitches are not to be shown, as it would be next to impossible to Police without full scale Vetting in (and even on the continent bitches in season manage to get past vetting), and it can't be so much of a problem or so blatant as to cause enough chaos to make them make it a rule.

I do find it strange though that it is common place in the breed I was speaking of where male on male aggression is usual.

Wow, you can pretty well rule our girls out for 9 months (3 weeks in season, then 9 weeks pregnancy, then 6 months after pups) so depending on when they came in season (say March when the show season is starting)it is likely to be a whole year before they are seen again.

If I had a bitch that I thought was a possible contender for a CC under a judge I really wanted to enter under & she came into season, come hell or high water, she would be there.

In my breed we have the some of the same names judging year in, year out and others seem to wait for 4-5+ years until their next appointment.  By then my bitch could be in Veteran!

Brainless,

I've just been through this with the bitch I referred to above :( 

Pity Crufts hadn't been 2 weeks later she looks stunning now - by WELKS she'll likely be in season again :(

>In my breed we have the some of the same names judging year in, year out and others seem to wait for 4-5+ years until their next >appointment.  By then my bitch could be in Veteran!

Same here :(

>> In my breed we have the some of the same names judging year in, year out and others seem to wait for 4-5+ years until their next >appointment.  By then my bitch could be in Veteran!
>

In ours too, and seems to be the better judges you never get and the not so good regularly.

I think I must be in a different world as I couldn't care less if it was a particular judge that I want to go under. If my bitch is in season then she just doesn't go. Even if she ended up being a veteran when a particular judge was doing us again I don't think it is fair in the bitch, the dogs, the other exhibitors or the judge to take a bitch in season to a show. Maybe I'm not competative enough but to me the day is there to be enjoyed. I couldn't enjoy it if I was having to watch every dog that came close, making sure that my bitch didn't get caught. Especially as she could be grumpy and might fly at a dog that came too close, thus giving her a name for being vicious. When all she is doing is protecting herself. No, I don't think I'll bring a bitch to a show, no matter who the judge is.

> No, I don't think I'll bring a bitch to a show, no matter who the judge is.

And that is your choice, and it is the choice of other exhibitors if they wish to show an in season bitch while the rules permit it.

I wouldn't show a bitch that was pregnant yet know in thsi countrya nd in the USA (where logn distances are involved) that bitches are shown up to 6 or 7 weeks in whelp. I did once show a bitch that ahd been mated a wek after her season finished (so no more than 10 days in whelp), at thsi stage the embryos are free flaoting and unaffected by external things, but after implantation when fed by the placenta they will be affected by the bitches environment.

> I think I must be in a different world as I couldn't care less if it was a particular judge that I want to go under. If my bitch is in season then she just doesn't go. Even if she ended up being a veteran when a particular judge was doing us again I don't think it is fair in the bitch, the dogs, the other exhibitors or the judge to take a bitch in season to a show. Maybe I'm not competative enough but to me the day is there to be enjoyed. I couldn't enjoy it if I was having to watch every dog that came close, making sure that my bitch didn't get caught. Especially as she could be grumpy and might fly at a dog that came too close, thus giving her a name for being vicious. When all she is doing is protecting herself. No, I don't think I'll bring a bitch to a show, no matter who the judge is.

A very sensible post.
NO show is that important & yes I am a very keen exhibitor & have been for the past 27 years.

And there's the danger of infection too - my girl has never been to a show in season, but on her last 2 seasons she has picked up infections afterwards, and I think it was because every 3 or 4 days I would give in to her pleading eyes, and walk her round the block just for a change of scenery. This time I refused to do that, and we had no infection. So much better not to go to a show, not only for the sake of the other dogs, but for the health of your bitch. :-)

A dog can pick up infections anywhere whether it be at a show or in a park or your own garden.    You cannot stop germs floating through the air unless you want to wrap her in a bubble?

> a mate of mine didnt know her bitch was in season until my boy told her!!!!!

oh my goodness, how did she not notice, my dog is a large toy breed and her tooty is the size of a tangerine! :) lol

I don't think I would show whilst my bitch is in season. I just don't think it would be fair on her or other people in the classes. Mainly those with Male dogs I suppose, their behaviour would be so erratic I think it would probably ruin their chances in the ring. :)