Hi, I am reading and hearing contradicting things on vaccinations. My 8 week old pup had her first vaccination at 7 weeks. She is due her second at 10 weeks. They apparantly cant bring that forward. My understanding of the second vac is that it is there in case the first doesnt take?

When you read breeders advice you get the impression that there is a lot of fear based around vaccinations, given by the vets who are adament you are putting your puppies life at risk to take them out in public. A lot of breeders are more knowledgable on what is a real risk and what is a recommendation.

Now my pup is still with her mum, still feeding on her milk (despite my trying to stop it!). I take my dogs to the office and mum uses a public park to toilet 3 times during the day then comes back in and shares a bed with the pup. Pup has met and played with my brothers rescue dogs who are vacinated but also go out to public places. Surely it is the same as him going out if he sits next to paws that have been out in public???

Having spent a lot of time toilet training, the pup cries when he wants a poo. He is very distressed about having to do it indoors.

What is the risk of letting him go outside? I need to make an educated decision on the risk involved but as i am dealing with the receptionist at the vets her view is "well we wouldnt recommend it" but no factual information to back it up. She did say they havent had any parvo in the area for a long time.

I have heard the vets view but wanted to hear some breeder opinions.

> I need to make an educated decision on the risk involved but as i am dealing with the receptionist at the vets her view is "well we wouldnt recommend it" but no factual information to back it up.

Ask to speak to the vet about it.  They are definately educated :-)

Thanks Isabel, the vet just says the same, we need to do the second vac before he can go out. They darent say anything else, they dont want to share the risk. I dont want them to but i do want some unbiased information which seems impossible to get.

I didnt panic this much over my babies vaccinations!!! :)

Do you mean let him outside in your garden, or out to a public place?  I have always let my puppies out in my garden from a very young age as it does help with the toilet training. 

I'm not sure why you think there would be bias.  What would they gain by misleading you?

ive always taken mine out after their first vaccination, not anywhere too over populated with dogs though.  You just need to use common sense, obviously if there is an outbreak of anything such as parvo in your area then I definitely wouldnt.

hi Sue

that is the problem, they have been totally toilet trained to the garden. But i bring them to the office and the only outside space is a park so i am asking them to use toilet training pads and he will wee on them but pooing causes him distress and he holds on and cries till he finally gives up and goes somewhere else.

I am just trying to ascertain how big the risk is to let him use a patch of public grass to poo on?

I dont think they mislead, but a vets job is to recommend vacinations which is what they do.

I have heard breeders holding other opinions and i was just hoping someone would give me the other side of the coin.

> but a vets job is to recommend vacinations which is what they do.

Are you talking about not having the second vaccination at all then? 

no, i will give him the second vacination, its booked and i vacinate all my dogs i am just thinking about taking him out before it so i can keep up the good work with house training!

So, what would be the incentive for a vet to advise in an unecessary fashion that was not based on his educated assessment of the risk?  Infact, if your puppy fell ill he would only stand to gain financially in treating him.  Vets advise this because there is risk there.

It's a decision only you can make. Obviously the safest thing is to avoid taking pup to places where other (possibly unvaccinated or infected) dogs or rates have been until he has strong immunity (and yes, pup has to be at least 10 weeks old for the second vaccination). However if you feel your pup's training is being compromised you might feel that the risk is worth taking. Only you can make that decision.

Is there no possibility of working from home or taking more leave until he is fully covered?

It's a decision i dont want to make but i do feel his training is being comprimised as he has only ever had one accident in the house as i have been so structured with the crate and house training, he even scratches the door when he wants to go out which is great for 8.5 weeks!

I would however never forgive myself if he caught something. I am not anti vets or thinking they have another agenda, i just like to get a range of opinions and breeders tend to have knowledge gained from experience which is just as valuable as academic or scientific. I wasnt criticising the vets position at all.

Unfortunately the business is mine and we are in a recession!! I need to be at work and have always brought mum with me and now pup. It is a short pain threshold and as it seems to be a risky business i will just continue with the indoor toileting until the second vac is done and hope the housetraining doesnt get lost.

Why not just carry him to and from the park and put the puppy pad outside on the grass for him to toilet on. The risk then is minimal. I would certainly avoid walking him anywhere, but unless there was a huge problem with parvo and lepto in your area i think the risk would only be slight.

> knowledge gained from experience which is just as valuable as academic or scientific.

That really isn't possible.  Unless a breeder has bred lots of puppies and reared matched examples within differing perameters to make some sort of controlled groups they have no chance of coming anywhere near the knowledge that even a small accademic trial might produce. 
But if you feel anecotal evidence is all you want then I can tell you that many years ago a puppy that my parents had booked died of distemper before completing its vaccination course.  So it can certainly happen but how likely that is these days with probably more dogs routinely vaccinated who knows only you can decide whether the risks are outweighed by the benefits of your particular circumstances. 
If you feel you must take him out perhaps you could find somewhere that is not generally used by other dogs.  I would certainly steer clear of the parks.

Thanks for all your advice i won't be taking the risk. Having just chased him at speed round the office whilst he cried and tried to hide to poo i finally got him to go on the pad (as it was making its exit) and gave him huge praise. Let's hope he can learn one rule for home one for work for now!

Are you a vet Isabel as you clearly have total faith in their expertise, as do i but i like to listen to debates so i can gain a balanced view. There are alternative views on everything.

No, I am not a vet and no I do not have complete faith in every single vet as an individual but as a body of opinion I really don't know who you expect to provide equal weight to an alternative view on matters such as this.  This is their subject, one that they have studied and qualified in and they will base their opinions on the known evidence.

there are many breeders with 20 or 30 years of experience, that counts too, as it is their subject based on their known evidence.

But lets agree this is a debate you didnt agree with having, i was just using the forum to canvass views and experiences.

thanks anyway :)

> This is their subject, one that they have studied and qualified in and they will base their opinions on the known eviden

in fairness isabel there are plenty vets out there that come out with nonscence (jemima seems to have found quite a few :)), there are also those who are not actually that up on the area on which they advise e.g. were i to ever breed a litter i think i would take more note of the experience of a mentor and the very experienced people on this forum that take my vets word as gospel (though hopefully in those circs i'd ahve found a vet i really deeply trusted :))

that being said, this is a pretty commonly dealt with subject by vets so their advice in this is most probably very sound. still, there is nothing wrong with a questioning mind :)

> there are many breeders with 20 or 30 years of experience, that counts too, as it is their subject based on their known evidence.

I have already explained their experiences would not really be regarded as evidence in any scientific sense.  For instance, I have never lost a pup to disease but that does not mean I am presenting evidence that it cannot happen.
Perhaps this site can help explain what I mean about understanding the real balance between alternative views.

> that being said, this is a pretty commonly dealt with subject by vets so their advice in this is most probably very sound.

That is what I was pointing out when I said it was not necessarily individuals I have faith in.

> there is nothing wrong with a questioning mind

Nothing at all and I hope I have been able to offer an answer :-)

Maybe that is what is shining through here. My vet practice change vets like the weather and a lot seem newly qualified and give text book answers - i am sure answers based on scientific fact! I view this forum as having experienced breeders with hands on experience being valid and useful.

If for instance 10 breeders came on here that had bred many many litters and had always taken their dogs out after one or no vacination they would demonstrate that it is a small risk. That is all i was trying to ascertain, is it a small risk or a big risk. We all know its a risk!!!

My enquiring mind was clearly running away with me :)

Maybe that is what is shining through here. My vet practice change vets like the weather and a lot seem newly qualified and give text book answers - i am sure answers based on scientific fact! I view this forum as having experienced breeders with hands on experience being valid and useful.

If for instance 10 breeders came on here that had bred many many litters and had always taken their dogs out after one or no vacination they would demonstrate that it is a small risk. That is all i was trying to ascertain, is it a small risk or a big risk. We all know its a risk!!!

My enquiring mind was clearly running away with me :)

Maybe that is what is shining through here. My vet practice change vets like the weather and a lot seem newly qualified and give text book answers - i am sure answers based on scientific fact! I view this forum as having experienced breeders with hands on experience being valid and useful.

If for instance 10 breeders came on here that had bred many many litters and had always taken their dogs out after one or no vacination they would demonstrate that it is a small risk. That is all i was trying to ascertain, is it a small risk or a big risk. We all know its a risk!!!

My enquiring mind was clearly running away with me :)

Maybe that is what is shining through here. My vet practice change vets like the weather and a lot seem newly qualified and give text book answers - i am sure answers based on scientific fact! I view this forum as having experienced breeders with hands on experience being valid and useful.

If for instance 10 breeders came on here that had bred many many litters and had always taken their dogs out after one or no vacination they would demonstrate that it is a small risk. That is all i was trying to ascertain, is it a small risk or a big risk. We all know its a risk!!!

My enquiring mind was clearly running away with me :)

> i am sure answers based on scientific fact!

Exactly.  This will always be stronger that anecdotal evidence.  Newly qualified is not a bad thing as they are probably still reading their journals regularly :-)  This subject, however, appears to carry a large concensus of vets opinions, new and old.

As someone else said we don't keep our own newborns away from contact with other possibly infected humans until their vaccinations are complete.

Comparisons with humans are not all that close.  Herd protection is likely to be much greater due to a much larger take up of vaccines for a start, nor do people tend to handle babies that they pass in the street as they might a tiny puppy. 

It would be interesting to have someone on here who does not agree with vaccinations at all and therefore do not vacinate even once. Having a relative who is an alternative medicine practitioner I know there are many who hold the view that the risk of vaccine damage is higher than the risk of catching a disease  and would therefore say dont worry.
I am not entering into the debate  ( I do vaccinate but only minimally ) but just  thought I would put the cat among the pigeons and perhaps encourage alternative views!

As for vets and their views I think that some are less text book than others and would certainly respect a vet who would enter in to discussion regarding any subjet to explain the pro's and con's so I con make informed choices. I have found their views like everyones can vary.

quite. interesting link btw

> and perhaps encourage alternative views!
>

I find this all very odd.  It sound as though alternative views are valuable for their own sake.  Surely the most pertinent and, frankly for me, the most scientific views are the ones people should seek out.  As Orwell might have said some views are more equal than others :-)

> Newly qualified is not a bad thing as they are probably still reading their journals regularly :-)

fair point- newly qualified means up to date but inexperienced, old hand means first hand experience but in newly surfacing fields likely incompletely trained. there are pros and cons to both. i suppose we all hope for a middle aged (so we don;t lose them soon :)) vet with lots of experience and an obsession with journal articles and research :)

> It sound as though alternative views are valuable for their own sake. 

they are, they can inspire new scientific discovery :) - think how much value has come from disrupting the scientific status quo in the past :)

that being of course if there is something to back up the view.

Could you not just place the training pad literally just outside your door on a plastic sheet that you kept at your office solely for the purpose? The pup then could go outside but wouldn't be on the ground as such just on the plastic and the training pad which would hopefully minimise the contact with the ground/other dogs but also be in keeping with housetraining him to go outside.

Why not set up a childs sandpit with sods of turf inside?  If space allowed the pup may be much more willing to use it and as you would still be teaching to go on grass it would not be contradicting your housetraining at home.

It would be interesting to have someone on here who does not agree with vaccinations at all and therefore do not vacinate even once.

furriefriends, for 25+ years I did what the vet I used to work for told me to do and that was to give primary vaccinations but no boosters and socialised them after their first vaccination.  Since 1996 I've not vaccinated at all and use nosodes.  I have never had dogs contract any of the relevant illnesses at all.

I'm not advocating that anyone else does the same, just telling you what I've done. :)

>Since 1996 I've not vaccinated at all and use nosodes.  I have never had dogs contract any of the relevant illnesses at all.

That's interesting, and I'm not trying to be picky at all, but the secretary of the BAHVS is on record as saying that the Association "does not advocate the use of nosodes as a preventative medicine as the basis of homoeopathy is to use like to treat like. There are people who do use them instead of vaccines, but there is no proof that they work one way or the other."

He recommends only using nosodes to treat an animal once it's contracted the illness.

As with all Vets, they differ in their opinions and I follow my homoeopathic Vet's instructions and have had no problems. :)

As I said, I'm not suggesting that anyone else does the same, just replying to furriefrend.

What a debate, that's what i was after, some varying opinions!!!

So the point that our puppies are only different to human babies because we dont pass babies to strangers, i wouldnt let a stranger pick up my puppy either!!!

So how are the diseases we vaccinate against passed? Through air, feet, toilet???? It helps to see where risk is.

The only area i could take pup out to is a public grass verge so not really any other options, it is a town center location. I dont think i will take him out till after vac 2 but it will definately slow down house training progress.

> So the point that our puppies are only different to human babies because we dont pass babies to strangers, i wouldnt let a stranger pick up my puppy either!!!
>

Who said anything about picking up?  Try walking through town carrying a puppy and see how many people want to stroke it :-). Like you say though little danger in that because the contact will be with another species with, perhaps, the minimal risk of indirect contact if that human has recently handled another dog.
But what you are considering is placing a puppy on the floor to walk and sniff where other dogs may have walked, sniffed, snorted, peed, pooed etc.

>The only area i could take pup out to is a public grass verge so not really any other options, it is a town center location.

What about these other suggestions people have offered in making your own safer outside area.

even a couple of pieces of turf outside your office would work.

Hi, I appreciate the advice on creating the outdoors indoors. I bought a pop up play pen and filled it with puppy training pads but i think he viewed it like a crate and wouldnt mess in it, he was frantic about getting out.

I have to try and keep the office slightly professional and i am not going to take a risk with Percy, he will have to get used to the puppy training pads for the next couple of weeks, then its the great outdoors!

just out of interest though, how do these diseases pass? Through the air, poop, on the paws??

Thanks Claireys, My office is town center, very built up so no discreet place to do that without getting in everyones way!!! It is a bit like putting a bit of turf on Marks and Spencers door step, there really is no space. i walk to the grass verge.

Thanks anyway but i have heard enough to realise there is only one side to this debate.....

> how do these diseases pass?

The different diseases have different modes of transmission.  Direct contact, nasal discharge, urine.

I take my pups out after first vaccination, I aviod the hot spots for dog walkers but take then to the pet superstores, down to the fields and for a road toddle to see cars / people etc. I take them on car journeys to get them familiar with travel and get them out at service areas etc to toilet.

The drug companies cannot gaurentee full immunity until after 2 vaccination BUT I choose to take this gamble for the benefit of socialisation. So far I have not had problems. I recommend my puppy owners do the same as myself, and most seem to follow that advice and have not had problems either. Not a scientific study but personal experience.  My vet know I do this and whilst he wouldn't "recommend" me to do so he admits he would do the same with his pups.

Infections are spread by various means .. airbourne, droplets, direct injection etc. IMHO you are as likely to aquire and infection in your puppy by visiting the vet, plenty of sick animals been in the waiting room !!

K  

That's interesting.

I have managed to do lots of socialising as they are a small breed and can be carried. I carry him when i walk mum, we have visited relatives with dogs, he comes to work and is sooo laid back!

I am torn what to do as it definately is affecting his housetraining as he was crystal clear about where to go for toilet now he is seeming confused and less reliable.

He and mum are with the sitter today so no problem as they are at home but from tomorrow he is full time with me in the office so i will have to make a decision.

I do agree that common sense says that if these things are airborn or can be carried on feet etc, then mum going out and coming back to him, then him chewing her paws and ears, or being carried outside where he will be breathing in airborn germs, he is being subjected to risk anyway. I can't really see there being much more to him putting his feet on the ground??

What breed are yours klb?

My OH has had his dog 7 years now, hes never vaccinated it or anything else.  I was terrified when I got my pup last year with him being around this dog, daily!!  I carried my pup everywhere until a week after his seccond jab, for the following week after that I put him on the ground in what I concidered to be safe places.  Hes just had his first booster and he will always get them!

The difference between the two dogs is mine is around alot of other dogs regularly, the OH dog is fear aggressive so he is rarely in contact with other dogs, he is walked earlier and later than the norm, or in dog free areas, he could however, catch something form the ground, til now he hasnt, 7 years is a long time, we dont know if he was vac's before that, he was handed into a vet and OH rehomed him.

My friend has 2 dogs that were vac's as pups, one had a bad reaction to the vac, Im not sure what as it was 4 years ago and I wasnt into dogs then, I just remember her telling me about it, the dog is half the size of her sister, needles to say neither dogs are boostered, both still alive!

Most people I know do vac's thier dogs, these are just two I know who dont.  I do, even though I see these dogs are fine, I think Im scared not to, however I raw feed my dog which is also a big no no with most vets and will not have him done either, which my vet recommended!

> I do agree that common sense says that if these things are airborn or can be carried on feet etc, then mum going out and coming back to him, then him chewing her paws and ears, or being carried outside where he will be breathing in airborn germs, he is being subjected to risk anyway. I can't really see there being much more to him putting his feet on the ground??
>
> What breed are yours klb?

It is a case of risk assessment.

As you say your place of work is in a built up and I expect low density area for dog walking???  you have also checked with the vet and there have not been any recent outbreaks of the diseases the pup will be having vaccinations for.

I along with many others would have been taking the pup out with care.

You are right, dog walking is non existent except for mine and one other who is a receptionist at my vets so assume he is ok!

That is what i was trying to use the forum to do - a risk assesment and back up what i thought was ok with others opinions. It seems quite an emotive subject but i have my pups best interests at heart and his progress has been fantastic due to the intensive time put into him and his socialisation.

I will take him out with mum from tomorrow. I will be sensible and place him on the grass and then carry him back. I havent put him on a lead yet so i doubt he will move far anyway but it will continue his understanding on toileting being outside.

thanks for everyone's advice - he still continues to drink from mum - any advice on stopping that would be gratefully received too!!!