Hi everyone, thought Id pop in and let you all know how Stavs has been, and how Prince (the dog stavs attacked, has been doing)

First, Prince is recovered fully and touch-wood there dont seem to be any complications with his shoulder injury.  Ive had a few e.mails from the owners since, and theyve kept me informed (I think they were getting sick of me writing letters to them via the vets, lol) and alls fine.

Stavs has been great!  Remember the farmer who said we could use his fields to exercise stavs in?  Well, we go there almost every day now. Its a bluddy long way to drive, takes me almost an hour each way, but its SO worth it.  Stavros and lola have the total run of 3 HUGE fields, no other dogs,(and none likely to turn up as its private land,) no footpaths, no livestock..its fantastic and means Stavs can go off lead and not have to wear his muzzle..yay!  He bombs around like a puppy.  On the day I cant go either because Im skint and low on petrol, or dont have to time to take  them that far, I take them out separately, lola can go to the park as shes no problem with other dogs, then I take stavs somewhere quiet and either road walk him or let him off with his muzzle on.  He had a "run in" with another staff, the staff started it and stavros couldnt defend himself due to his muzzle, but it was mostly noise and stavs wasnt hurt.

Now for the lightbulb moment....Stavs had been on Zylkene for his "rain phobia"....yes really, he has a rain phobia.  He gets very upset if it rains, even lightly, and wont go out even to toilet, he was holding it in untill he was fit to burst.  As soon as he hears its raining, he runs upstairs and hides under the bed.  So this feasr of rain was even affecting him in the house, he shakes as soon as he knows its raing.   Anyway, he was on Zylkene and it worked amazingly well...he would not  only go out in the rain to toilet, but would stay outside and bark at the rain! lol, so the zyklene gave him more confidence.   He was also less submissive with lola, who is the boss.  But that seemed to make stavs want to "push" lo untill she reacted..  and while on this drug it was the one and only time he had a fight with lo.

Ive worked out that stavs was on the zylkene when he attacked Prince.  Do you think that maybe, even though the zylkene is wonderfull, it may be why he suddenly regressed back into his aggression?    Maybe he felt too confident? 

Anyway, alls well that ends well.   Thankyou all for being such stars and helping me so much, you are all great on here!

Carmel

Hi,

Glad that Prince is doing well - it must be a relief for you :-)  There are so many things that could have influenced what triggered his attack on Prince, it would be hard to say whether the Zylkene contributed or not.  DAP products can occasioanlly have a disinhibiting effect so I'm sure it's possible with Zylkene.  Regardless of whether it had an effect or not I wouldn't say it made him too confident, it is possible it gave him the confidence to act on how he was feeling, which given his experiences and the way you've described him sounds like fear of other dogs, so lacking in confidence rather than the other way around.  Was his fight with the staff near the time when he fought with Lola?

It's great that you have the field to exercise him in without fear of other dogs appearing.  I am really surpirsed that you are walking him muzzled or not off lead on some of the days when you aren't able to get to the fields - it is not worth the risk and it's not fair on other people to take any kind of risk - with a dog that was as much smaller as prince was it doesn't matter, muzzled or not he can still do so much damage!

Off lead it also means that he is open to fights with other dogs, whether he starts it or not, his body language may be confusing to other dogs with a muzzle on.  On lead you can keep him safe and movce him out the way and stand inffront of him or change direction if you see an off lead dog approaching.

If he's getting that much free running then a few lead walks aren't going to do him any harm and it's safer for everyone.

>while on this drug it was the one and only time he had a fight with lo

Just to make it clear, Zylkene isn't a drug. It's merely casein, one of the proteins in milk (easily digestible) which has a soothing effect rather like having a mug of Horlicks.

Glad to hear that Prince is doing well, and very glad to hear that Stavs is doing amazing now that you can get him out to the farmers land to do some running offleash, in a safe area. 
(((hugs)))

Thanks for the replies :)

Sorry, I dont think I was very clear in that post, re letting stavs off, and the run in with the other staff, my fault for trying to type in a hurry, lol, but reading back I can see how it read.

I dont let stavs off anywhere that isnt an extremely large open space, like a very very large field.  And only if Im able to spot for miles around in all directions, with no "surprise exits/entrances".  The only reason I still muzzle Stavs in this field, is because Im unsure if there is livestock a few fields away, and just to be extra vigilant, just in case.  The thing with the staffy happened as we were walking through a lane leading from the field to where I park the car.  I keep Stavs muzzle on for that walk to and from the field because it has some turns and I cant be sure another dog might be coming around one of the corners.  The staffy ran ahead of his owner in the lane, thats when the scuffle took place, but Stavs was on his lead and muzzled.  Sorry I didnt take the time to explain that properly.

The other place I let stavs off with his muzzle on is on the Cotswolds, once Im in a position to see for miles and know that no dogs are anywhere for miles.  The reason I keep his muzzle on then is for a similar reason as with the field, but incase of rabbits, wildlife etc and because its public....even though I can see for miles, Im paranoid.

I only ever let the muzzle come off in the farmers fields where its private, fenced, enormous and I know with cast iron certainty that there will never be another dogwalker there. I could be even more paranoid and keep the muzzle on even in those fields, because of wilkdlife, but it defeats the object of having such a wonderfull place at our desposal, so that Stavs can have some unmuzzled time .

I understand how my post must have read, and wanted to explain, because I assure you I will never take a chance.

Thanks also for the comments about the Zylkene.  Ive no idea if it tied in with Stavs attacking Prince, but it suddenly came to me that it was while he was on it, and that the scuffle with Lola was around the same time, I agree though that stavs is fear aggressive, without a doubt.  I didnt think of that bit when I wrote about him and Lo, so I dont know why they fell out, maybe it was just a one-off as theyve never had a fight before, or since.  Lola is very very bossy with Stavs, and he always gives in to her "demands", if he has a toy, Lola wants it and takes it, if he has a chew and Lola wants it, she takes it, if Lo wants to sit somewhere where Stavs is, he moves for her etc, but that one time he stood up to her and although it wasnt serious (no-one was hurt, no marks or anything), maybe Stavs had just had enough of being bossed around by a woman, lol.

Arnt dogs a funny thing?  Stavs is aggressive to other dogs, yet wont say boo to Lola, and Lola is totally brilliant with all other dogs, a real softee, yet pushes Stavs around at home!   Im assuming thats because Lo is the more dominant, so doesnt need to assert herself with any other dogs (being confident in herself), while Stavs is unsure and lacks confidence, so isnt good with the other dogs?  Yet knows his place in the pecking order with Lola?   Do you think thats it?

Thanks everyone :)

Hi Stavs,

Glad things are working out for you.

Yes I think you are right: it sounds as though Lola is a much more confident and stable dog than Stavs, thus she pretty much does her thing at home and when out she doesn't feel the need to be aggressive to other dogs because she is not frightened of them. In the same way other dogs will see her as non threatening because she doesn't give off stressy signals.

Stavs seems to have some fear aggression issues and these come to the fore when he is out and having (formerly) to interact with other dogs. At home with Lola he feels secure, he knows her and does not find her threatening. He probably consistently gives way to her because she is more confident and it is easier and less stressful for him to back down and let her take precedence. Despite his size and power he's probably happier being a back room boy. On the day he snapped at Lola he may have been at the end of his tether, perhaps feeling under par or perhaps the medication enabled him to relax more so that he momentarily forget his p's and q's with Lola. But, as ever, this is all guess work.

I think with Prince it was not clear if it was fear aggression, prey drive or a mix of the two.

Hiya,

It could also be that if they were all around the same time that his adrenaline never got the chance to go back to normal, and he was more reactive because of that or just that he was feeling morer unsettled than normal because of the incidents.  His problem with rain could also have an impact - if he'd been particularly wound up the day or two before because it had been raining, it could have triggered him to be more reactive.

With regards to Lola, it could be that she's more confident, but the all deal with things in different ways any way.  To be honest she sounds more of a bully with Stavs than dominant.  Dominant dogs don't need to go around showing they are boss at every given opportunity, because they are confident and secure enough in their own position not to do that.  I personally wouldn't allow a dog to be taking chews or toys off another dog, or moving them out of a place they are resting.  If you remove that aspect then hopefully Stavs won't need to get pushed to the point where he has just had enough!

KC,

I think you've made two good points there. I guess on the bullying question it just depends how much she is doing it, if it is constant then perhaps it needs to be addressed. I think some bitches, especially, can just be very bossy. I also wonder if his anxiety prompts her to into over bossy behaviour as a way of coping. It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall.

Thanks for all the input. :)

Lo doesnt take things from Stavs ALL the time, but if he has something she wants, she will just take it from him.  Ive often wondered if Lola was bullying Stavs, or just being top dog.  It can seem like bullying at times, although at other times it just seems as if shes being a bit bossy.  If for example, Stavs is sat on my lap on the sofa ( he thinks hes a lapdog. lol)  Lola will also get onto my lap and kind of wedge herself between stavs and myself, wriggling around untill stavs gets down and Lola has my lap to herself.  Stuff like that she does quite a lot.

With the chews, when I first give them to them Lola will take hers, then drop it and want to see what chew stavs has, and although its exactly the same, she wants that one.  Then stavs will go and pick up lolas, once lo has gone into her bed with the other chew, and go to his bed to eat it.

With bones or something thats going to take them a while to eat, I do seperate them, because otherwise Stavs wont eat his, he just walks around with it in his mouth, being all worried.  Lo gets locked in her crate to eat hers so that stavs can eat his in peace.

With toys, Lo will just want whatever toy stavs has.  If they have a ball each, she will take his too and Ive even seen her try to pick up 2 balls in her mouth so that stavs cant have one!   Im worried now though, that Im not dealing with this right? :(     I always thought I shouldnt interfere too much, that I should leave them to sort out their hierarchy themselves?   (Obviously if they fought, or if Lo was going for stavs, I wouldnt leave them to it) but I dont know now if I should be taking the toy back off Lola and giving it back to stavs, or what?    They do play together a lot, and if Lola had her way she would sleep in the same bed as Stavs all night, she often gets in with him and tries to snuggle down but he gets up and moves straight away, unless hes exhausted after a long run, then he will stay there and its lovely to see them curled up together, but more often than not he will move to a different spot.

Lo is definately the boss though, although I thought they rubbed along nicely together really, as I said theyve only ever had that one scuffle in 5 years, and that was only because Stavs stood up to her and it escalated.

I hate to think Ive been possibly allowing stavs to be bullied though :(     Im unsure what to do now?

Hiya,

What you describe, to me is her being pushy and a bit of a bully.  Certainly not unusual for a Staffy to try and push another dog off a lap and get a snuggle all to themselves :-D However what you've said isn't what I'd describe as top dog behaviour, (I think that concept is something that there is way too much emphasis put onto anyway)  I've never seen in my home one dog be the 'ruler' over all, it tends to be fluid relationship where one will have a bit more control in one area and another in another area. 

One of my girls is such a child (always wants what the other has) and will take if allowed any chews, bones etc off my Dobe, actually she's much better now because she's generally not been able to practise it and I've now taught her a reliable leave so there is now worries.  While 99% of the times she can take stuff like that off her, my Dobe does get a little worried by it and occasionally will let rip, I want her to feel comfortable to eat and enjoy her bone/chew play with toys etc in peace.  They are quite keen to swap bones at the end when they've finshed so when they're done, they both look at me and I swap them over for them.

It's the other way around when it comes to me - my Dobe can be a bit guardy over me, she won't try and push the other out but if my Dobes up for a cuddle first then she doesn't want anyone else interfereing, if she growls when my other girl gets up to have a cuddle, then I move over and the cuddle ends.  Obviously that's different to some extent than what goes on with your two but I wouldn't be allowing her to push him out, sharing is fine but not pushing out.

I think what Freelancer says is true, some girls can be more bossy naturally - tis true of most species :-D To me that doesn't mean it should be allowed though.  I've got a friend who's always been incredibly bossy, I love her and we get on great but sometimes don't enjoy my time with her as much as I would if she weren't so - I don't say anything coz I don't want to rock the boat and it's easier but is doesn't mean I'm always happy with it.  A silly example I know but I often see dogs that are being a bit bullyish with their buddy and the buddy just takes it because it's easier, he/she isn't a fighter so they just accept the situation but you can see at times they are a little insecure in thier actions or worried to do what they would other wise.

I'm sure others may see it differently but for me any kind of pushyness and bullying isn't allowed.  It sounds like they generally have a great relationship, it just may help Stavs confidence improve slightly which may help with other situations.

Great news Carmel..i'm really pleased for all involved :)

Annee