Need your advice please. Bear with me, bit long. No.1 son was sent home from school ill on Monday, another stomach bug doing the rounds!. When I was asking him what had happened he told me that the first two toilet blocks that he went to were locked, year7 and 10, so he went to the learning support dept where he knew the toilets had to be open. I thought that it was a bit off that two lots of loos were locked, so I contacted the school and asked for someone to call me and explain why the loos were locked. Just had a call from the 'matron' who didn't know why the year 10 were locked, but the year 7 were out of order. However, if Son needs to use them he can go to her and she will open them!! I told her that I've told him if he feels ill again not to run all over the school, but find a bin and throw up there!! I told her that Stephen had mentioned before that the loos were locked at lunchtime, and she said that its an ongoing problem.
  My son seems to think that the loos are locked to avoid vandalism, but surely they should't be locking toilets in a school with over 800 kids? Someone suggested I notify Ofstead, or the council. What do you guys think? Am I over reacting, should I just leave it? Opinions welcome, Sam.

I would be on the telephone to your local county education department as soon as you could say knife, and complain.

No excuses children need 24/7 access to toilet facilities its a H&S issue, what an appalling situation for your child to be put in. They have a duty of care in loco parentis (probaly spelt wrong mind you).

i would certainly raise the concern :( i'd also be concerned about them being worried about vandalism, whats going on at that school?

Hi Sam

I'd be on the phone immediately and writing a stiff letter of complaint to the Head Teacher with a cc to the LA :)  To deprive children of readily available access to toilet facilities is wrong - out of order toilets is one thing, although repairs should be speedily addressed, but to have working toilets off limits for whatever reason is indefensible.

Be pro-active, you're in the right to be concerned and to ensure appropriate action is taken to adequately, safely and appropriately cater for the children's health and wellfare :)

regards, Teri

Going back to my school days (late 60's - late 70's) the toilets were always used for hiding and smoking. I imagine nowadays things are the same - if not worse !. Maybe that's why they are locked, so that the teachers are aware of who's there because they need to be asked for a key maybe ?.
Sad for your son that he was so worried and not a nice situation. Just wondered if it's the reason though.

I work in a school and the toilets are locked during lesson time to prevent vandalism and kids hanging out in the toilets during lesson.
Why dont you take this up with the senior leadership team or headteacher first??

when my husband was a caretaker at a very large senior school, there was only a certain set of toilets open at lunch time and these where monitered by the staff, due to the excessive vandalism that used to take place in the toilets, when the parents complained about only one set being opened at lunch time  the head master sent a letter home with pictures of the vandalism that had been caused in the toilets when the other sets where left open and no one was around to supervise, the toilets had cans put down them and i mean stuffed around the U bend to cause blockages, the sinks two had been ripped off the wall, the mirrors had all been shattered , sometimes the doors would be kicked in and left hanging,  graffitti on most of the walls,most of the parents where astounded that this behaviour went on when the children where not supervised, and they understood from then on why only one set of toilets where available, when i say one set i mean, 9 girls toilets and 5 boys toilets and the urinals.
so i do understand sometimes why the toilets are closed , i am not saying it is correct but they where only closed at lunch times due to the misues which happened at lunchtimes breaks where never a problem.
I used to clean the toilets and could tell you stories that would make the hair on the back of your neck rise when you found out what some girls used to get up to in there
and we had to clean it.
carolann

> Am I over reacting, should I just leave it?

No, you're not overreacting but I do think you should speak to the school first to clarify the position.  At least that way, if you need to escalate the problem, you'll have the full details of the situation on that day and, hopefully, an explanation of the schools policy.

I was talking to my sister in law recently about our girls who both started their periods in year 7 (1st year of senior school).  We've found that not only do they have to contend with learning how to manage the situation whilst at school but that there is an unsympathetic approach by teachers to girls that need a bit of extra time in the bathroom.  I'm sure that's a requirement also open to abuse but it does make a difficult time more problematic for our daughters.  There's no easy answer to this one as I've been banned from mentioning one word of it to my daughters school - 'I'm fine' she says, 'I manage' she says, and she'll 'never speak to me again if I tell anyone' she says.  I love her, she's fab, but I can't shift her on this one  ...we just have to discuss invisible coping strategies instead! :)

I'd urge you to go into the school to speak to them first to show how serious you are about it, before notifying anyone else and causing more bother than might be necessary to come up with a solution.

Personally, back in my high school days (only 5 years ago), all but the main set of toilets was locked at lunchtime and after school. Before that policy was introduced the toilets were full of smokers, people throwing wet paper about, and people causing vandalism. If you weren't part of the smokers clique you'd be harassed for going into the toilets. Thus I went the vast majority of days doing all I could to avoid having to go to the toilet in school. The school implementing the policy of only the main bathroom being used at lunchtime and breaktime meant that it could be supervised by a member of staff stood outside, and quieter people like me could use them without fear :) Also, after school I only ever expected the main bathroom to be unlocked, as after school hours pupils are not expected to be wandering an empty to school to the tucked away small bathrooms, so I never thought that was unreasonable.

>that there is an unsympathetic approach by teachers to girls that need a bit of extra time in the bathroom

Why should they need extra time?

I work in a girls school and, in my very humble opinion, the sooner girls get used to the fact it is normal and natural and you need not take half an hour in the loo to change, the better!

>> that there is an unsympathetic approach by teachers to girls that need a bit of extra time in the bathroom
> Why should they need extra time?
>
> I work in a girls school and, in my very humble opinion, the sooner girls get used to the fact it is normal and natural and you need not take half an hour in the loo to change, the better!

Of course you're right, the sooner they get used to it the better, it's just the first few times - whilst they get the hang of it - that cause a bit of difficulty.

Without getting into specifics there are times when they need a bit of time and patience to get organised and it doesn't help if they are rushing, or feel unable to explain if they are a few minutes late.  Despite some practise my poor neice still managed to not stick her pad in place properly, and lose it down her trouser leg to emerge in the classroom.  My daughter was all fingers and thumbs and even one year on still has the odd drama.  They all take great pains to make sure no one notices but the odd crisis moment is inevitable.

It IS all completely normal but the early days are still a bit tricky from a purely practical perspective.  It makes me so glad I'm not 11 again!!

I went to an all girls school and i remember being VERY embarassed at needing a longer time in the loo as older girls would hang around and harass people in the cubicles . We only ever went with a friend  to hold the door shut for you .
However , as we are talking 'monthlies' , it is very embarassing for these girls to be ripping ST's open etc , whilst people outside can hear . Also having a number 2 while people are outside the cubicle is embarassing so both my kids will hold on until they get home ( i don't think they should have to ).
I think schools should have single toilets near the school office where kids who need a bit more privacy can go , but the toilets can be monitored by the school staff for smokers and trouble makers .

>Also having a number 2 while people are outside the cubicle is embarassing

If they put some loo paper on the surface of the water before they start the sound is greatly reduced. :-)

> Why should they need extra time?
>
> I work in a girls school and, in my very humble opinion, the sooner girls get used to the fact it is normal and natural and you need not take half an hour in the loo to change, the better!

but some girls do need that kind of time sometimes. one of my friends periods is so bad and so heavy she needs to change every hour or so at least, and thats calmed down since she started the pill.

School was awful for me.  Before the pill my periods were not regular and often there were no obvious signs I was due - no cramps or often massive cramps but no period.  Luckily our toilets were never locked though.

Good grief what sort of schools did you go to you lot?! I've never heard the like of people needing supervision or restricted access! I suppose when I went to school we were all scared stiff of getting into trouble! My Father was violent enough, even on short trips home, without the need to inflame his anger and resulting discipline! Yeah I know, I had a hard life lol...haven't seen him since I was 15! if I reported what he did to us now he would be arrested and serve some time I suppose?!

Anyways, yes report it, there should be reasonable access to toilets, but then again, I would never send a child to school if they were ill. When my children went to school if they were ill we were phoned and 'asked' to remove child asap!

> they put some loo paper on the surface of the water before they start the sound is greatly reduced. :-) <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>[url=http://www.champdogs.co.uk/"><IMG][/url]

That's if there is any left from being shoved down the loo to block it .

Sorry Newfidreams, I thought that it was clear in my post, he was sent home ill. He was perfectly fine in the morning and I have to say that I am EXTREMELY offended at the suggestion that I would send an unwell child to school. Quite apart from anything else it is pointless as these days schools send kids home at the drop of a hat, whereas I remember you had to be dying to get sent home. But I guess it was alot more difficult to contact parents before mobile phones!! The sickness came over him in a wave, with dizziness and that was my main concern, that he felt that ill and was running all over the school. Have now spoken to the year head and the matron and made my views known. Also told them that I've told Stephen if there is a similar situation he should find a bin or a quiet corner!! Apparently kids were still going down with it today! I have told them that I will monitor the situation!

I apologise...I got mixed up with him running around the school looking for a bin to be sick in! My mistake...sorry...

Oh the schools are very quick to send them home now !! last friday i had to walk the 20 mins to school to fetch my daughter after recieving a call she was being sick.....when i got there she was right as rain and i asked her if she felt sick.....she replied no and informed me the only reason she was sick was because the boy at her dinner table was picking his nose and eating it whilst she was trying to eat her dinner =/

Of course she had told dinner assistant this but head mistress decided that home was best.

>as these days schools send kids home at the drop of a hat

You have no idea how offended I am by that. At schools we are damned if we do and damned if we dont' If we don;t send them home straight away we get complaints from parents and now you reckon we send them home at the drop of a hat! At our school we have an MI room which is for FIRST AID and not nursemaid. We just dont have the time or the staff for one person to sit with an ill child and anyway, why should schools keep ill children there when the best place for them is at home?

>Apparently kids were still going down with it today!

Maybe if more parents had kept their children at home when they were ill that sickness wouldnt have spread through the school as much?

Whilst I feel the school is wrong to have closed the toilet facilities and, in point of fact there is a legal requirement for a certain number of toilets per number of children, you should approach the school and write to the Governors to find out exactly what the situation is

>I am EXTREMELY offended at the suggestion that I would send an unwell child to school.

Maybe if you worked at a school you wouldnt be quite so offended, we have many ill children sent into school by parents in a term ;) :)

Just out of interest thought I'd look this up.
See below.  Toilet facilities for children should be one toilet to 10 children if under age 5, and one to 20 if over age 5.
There is apparently no law for the level of cleanliness for pupil toilets, but there is for public and teacher toilet facilities.
Quite interesting.
First thing I would do before making a complaint or reporting the school is to find out if there are enough toilets. 
Find the conflicting thoughts on this subject really interesting!
I remember receiving a phone call from school when my son was young. He had had an accident, wholly NOT his fault, received 2 serious head injuries from 2" thick glass falling from a height of around 30ft, and I was asked if I thought they should phone an ambulance as the bleeding would not stop.
Hmmm.. I guess you can only imagine my reply.  He ended up with 20 stitches, a permanent hairless scar, a warning that he was lucky he had been running at the time the glass fell or it could have taken his life and a eventually a small monetary settlement from the school as the local council didn't know who should be held responsible for light fittings which had been unworkable for over 10 years...
But I digress...
That's only my opinion of ONE school of course, slightly different to a tummy bug poor love.  Hope he's feeling better now.

Washrooms for pupils
     3.  - (1) In every school there shall be facilities referred to in paragraphs (2) to (7) which are adequate having regard to the ages, sex and numbers of the pupils and any relevant special requirements they may have but never fewer than as set out in those paragraphs.

    (2) In every school there shall be a washroom or washrooms for pupils which, taken together, contain a number of sanitary fittings which is as least equal to "the basic number" being -

(a) the aggregate of -

(i) 10% of the number of pupils at the school who have not attained the age of 5 years, and

(ii) 5% of the number of pupils at the school who have attained that age; or

(b) in the case of a special school, 10% of the number of pupils at the school,

in each case rounded up to the nearest whole even number.

    (3) In considering for the purposes of paragraph (2) the washrooms in the school and the number of sanitary fittings contained therein, account may be taken of any washroom for use by any pupil which fulfils the conditions set out in regulation 4(3)(b) provided that, in the case of a school with both male and female pupils who have attained the age of 8 years, there are at least two other washrooms for pupils.

    (4)

(a) In a school at which the majority of the pupils have attained the age of 11 years -

(i) every washroom for pupils in which there is fewer than 3 sanitary fittings shall contain at least as many washbasins as there are sanitary fittings,

(ii) every other washroom for pupils shall contain a number of washbasins which is not less than two-thirds of the number of sanitary fittings.

(b) In any other school, in all the washrooms for pupils taken together, the number of washbasins shall not be less than the basic number of sanitary fittings calculated in accordance with paragraph (2).

    (5)

(a) Except as provided in regulation 4(3), washrooms for male and female pupils who have attained the age of 8 years shall be separate.

(b) In a washroom provided for male pupils and female pupils and in a washroom provided for female pupils only, all of the sanitary fittings shall be water closets.

    (6) In the case of a school with pupils who have not attained the age of 5 years, at least one shower, bath or deep sink shall be provided for every 40 such pupils, the number of such pupils being rounded up to the nearest multiple of 40.

    (7) Changing accommodation including showers shall be provided for pupils who have attained the age of 11 years and who are in receipt of physical education and that accommodation shall be readily accessible from the school grounds and from any accommodation provided for physical education within the school buildings.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19990002.htm#3

Melodysk, i work in a school too and we have exactly the same problems as yours. You cant seem to win either way :-)

I sympathise Fred's Mum, it must be very difficult to decide when to send children home especially as some may exaggerate their symptoms and others underplay them! On the subject of the locked toilets though, I find it absolutely shocking that toilets sometimes have to be kept locked in case they will be vandalised. I find it hard to comprehend that children would behave like that, and if this was the case in my child's school I would have doubts as to whether it was a suitable, or safe, environment for them to be in at all. 

I had to or he would never have gone to school, we used to visit twice a day to nebulise him and then leave him there. I used to say phone if your really bad and we will come and get you, he could be home an with the Dr as an emergency in 15 minutes flat!
But I have never known a school to lock toilets, but in small village schools we have always been lucky. He was a lot better at controlling his illness at senior school but he was also about 200 yards from A&E! I have had to be quite tough with him or I would have never let him out of my sight, saying goodbye at Uni I cried all the way home!! and sat by the phone now he's got osteoperosis because of his medication he's 22! Im sure neither of you meant to insinuate anything!!

Things are completely different today IMO to when we were children. I know even in my boys school, which isn't known for vandalism or unsociable behaviour at all, even so they still had the toilets locked during lesson times, prevention sometimes is the cure :-) all the children always knew that toilets were locked during lesson time, however next to each toilet was an office with someone always there, so if there was an emergency they would be straight out to let a pupil in.

Is it possible that your son just did not know to ask someone to open them for him? If he has not had an emergency before, he probably was running around trying to find an open toilet instead of asking for help.

The school are within their rights to lock the toilets, particularly secondary schools, however there should be someone there to open them. I wouldn't be reporting it unless my son said there was no-one to go to to open them.

I was always very relieved that if one of my sons was feeling peaky the school would ring for them to come home, I would much, much rather it was that way around than a school that does not care and leaves your child to suffer on.

poor kid and how embarrasing it could have been for him, i know that health and safety is key and i no them toilets should be onen if not someone should be standing outside of them to open if needed

My old school i remember, the toiliets were always locked, there were one set open and they were wrecking with cigarette smoke, they were the only ones ever open, the others for the lower years were locked at certain time periods, so you either held it, or braved the smoke to enhale to get into the loo!! Not a good thing at all!!! They did have someone stood outside, however it never made any difference!

The toilets at my schools were never locked either.  Even during lesson time they were open.  I dont remember much vandalism, apart from maybe a couple written things on the stall walls.  Or smoking, none of that happened!  (had smoke detectors in the washrooms) 

I would contact the school board, and see what their position is.  Then write a letter to explain your distaste for the rules about toilets being locked.  I cant imagine!  If I needed the toilet when at school, I would search for one that no one was in, and run the water at the same time (used to think it cut down the noise during the monthlies opening napkins)

Sick children (colds and such) were always sent to school.  You had to be really bad before you got to stay home.  Or even sent home.  But its been a while since I was in school, so that may have changed. 

Unfortunately some children seem to behave completely differently at home to how they do at school. I think the parents would be astounded to see thier children swearing, dropping litter and causing mindless vandalism. As we often tell the pupils "you wouldnt do it at home" but they just dont seem to see it like that

I would hope that if staff members come across any pupils behaving in this way they would inform parents as well as suitably punishing the behaviour, I would like to think my own children's morals extend outside the home but if this wasn't the case it would be taken very seriously! Personally when I was at school (okay 20 years ago) none of us would have dreamt of vandalising the school so I don't know how things have gone so wrong.

so I don't know how things have gone so wrong.

I think that some schools have always had things worse than others, but even in the 'good' schools, I know from speaking to the headmistress of my boys primary school she has said to me that the children coming through the doors now are so different to when my boys were there, much more undisciplined and 'naughtier' :-(

The school I went to wasn't particularly a 'good school', just a regular state school to which everyone went from all backgrounds. There were high moral standards though, everyone knew they would be in major trouble if their parents found out they had been swearing etc, it just was not socially acceptable.