I have only been showing two years and have two toy girls.
Both are nice (both Crufts qualified) but not the best compared to other dogs
One has had a bitch pup a few weeks ago which I hope to keep - (hoping she will be better than my girls but time will tell)
My mentor has offered me a bich pup in joint names which I would love to have (she has been breeding forever and has great dogs)
My issue is that could potentially give me 4 girls under 3years old.
I want to show and improve the breed but my girls are also family pets and so I can't sell any to make room over the years and don't want many more than 4 or 5

How do you juggle all this?

i have 4 too all under 4 lol lol ....fun fun fun thats all i can say :) ..and lots of hard work and not much sleep lol but its worth it ..im not showing yet but im looking into geting my 1st show dog:):) so ill have 5 dogs oooooooo :)

I would say better not have 4 under 3 years old, personally.
It's ok whilst they are still pups but in 2 or 3 years time you are going to be limited if you want a new pup coming along behind. You have 2 options(in my mind) either carry on keeping the pup you bred yourself(who could be as good as the other pup) or not keep the one you bred and have the other pup in partnership(this could have problems all of it's own). Either pups could be good/bad who know's, I would probably go with you own pup as there's that added joy when you win if you bred it yourself.

> I would say better not have 4 under 3 years old, personally.

I fully agree if you are limited to the number you can have. As Lexy said you could end up limited in the near future, if you only have one of the pups now then your options are open for a couple more from either your own stock or a respected breeder for showing when the girls are older and maybe nearing retirement from the show arena or maternity duties or maybe just not cut out for the showing world (not all of them are). HTH :)

Sorry forgot to ask how old are the two you have at present?

That's what I thought- four so close in age will limit me but even if they retire etc they will stay - I am too soft by far and so ar the kids and hubby.
Mischa is 18 months and just had the pup - I was advised to have a litter while she grew her tail back after her one year old sister chewing it off and meaning we had to miss Crufts. As she is a toy this was not too young and two very experienced breeders gave me the same advice. We only have the one pup, she had two but one died at two days old.
I used the stud dog of my mentor so hoping she will be nice although head markings may not be flashy enough although head shape is fab so far and better than mums- I know this can change.

This is not easy is it?

Ann if you take on the bitch pup in joint names it will mean it being in the ring same time as your own pup.  Why not wait and have a pup in joint names in a couple of years time.  Knowing your mentor I'm sure she will understand the why, though for some people who can keep dogs of similar ages it is not a problem.  You will also have all your available space taken in the one year, and I know it is so tempting, but so very hard to say no.  I have just turned down a pup from breeding that I like because of a similar situation, I have two bitch pups of my own here who are only four weeks older than the one I was offered.  Think to where you will be in the future, will your girls be having pups in years to come? what will you do with them? 

Never easy but sometimes you just have to put on your sensible head.  :)

Joan

I would go for it. Your toy breed will not take up too much space and three is not a huge number. You will have all bitches which should be easier to manage than having both sexes. It sounds as if you have a good opportunity to make progress in your breed. I know what you mean about not parting with any of your dogs though. We never do either, bless 'em :-)

It really depends on the quality of the pup you have bred.  You may have to be ruthless and decide if it is show potential, if not then find it a nice pet home so don't be too hasty in refusing the joint owned bitch.   You might have to harden your heart and realise what you buy in is better than what you've bred.

There is no guarantee either way & the one you bred could be as good if not better than the one you but in.
If you want to limit your numbers to 5 then if you keep your own pup & have the other pup that is 4. Toys maybe smaller but it is wise to be sensible now.
My family circumstances chaged last November when my sister was tragically killed and she had 2 dogs (of my breeding) I now have those and cannot have a new puppy & my youngest is 3 in April.
What I'm trying to say is you never know what is just around the corner.

Thanks all

Will keep an eye on my own pup and not make any decisions yet. You all make good points x

annm if you want my advice please stay clear of breeding terms or joint ownerships all my dogs here are pets whether i show them or not i have not bred any puppies in over 3 years because i always keep to better the breed sorry but i have got a very soft heart here my dogs are my children and please only breed if you intend to keep something do not be labeled as a puppy farmer that only breed to make money in 10 + years i have paid out more than i have ever made

I ditto what Christine has said. " often" mediocre bitches will produce the same. They often look promising as puppies but go off a bit older. If the breeder has a pup available from good parents BOTH sides and is a nice pup that would probably be my first choice rather than a potential out of a mediocre bitch.   The quality for me would always supercede who bred it.

Most good breeders first and best piece of advice to new starters is to invest in the best possible bitch available.

Hi Thanks for your advice- I wouldn't class Mischa as Mediocre- her fault is that she has a lighter coat than I would like but she has won well at all shows entered - never lower than second- just as I learn more I want to get as near to perfect as I can. My other bitch is lovely too but again I know what I would improve.
I had taken Mischa to a very nice stud dog and in fact one of the pups I can choose from may be her half sister- I am tempted not to do this as too close as a starting point.
I don't think I could ever be labelled as a back yard breeder having only bred one pup- I am in this for the long run and fully hope to be in the ring with a zimmer in years to come if need be.
My dilema was it is a great opportunity to be offered this other pup - there are no ties, no breeding terms, nothing wanted back just an older lady trying to help someone new get started having had her brains picked non stop for the last two years and sat me down with videos, dvds books etc and spent more hours than I can count coaching me.
My main problem is the dogs are family pets and therfore I don't want high numbers as it becomes difficult to take them fishing, stay in hotels etc and have days out all together.

I am watching my wee pup with a critical eye and I will have her assesed by those who know more than me before I make a decision which way to go.
It would be nice to introduce my own affix in the ring with my first home bred girl but looking to the future this could well be the bitch from which 40 years of dogs track back to so not a decision I will make lightly

> do not be labeled as a puppy farmer that only breed to make money

Sorry I had to add re this - You probably did not mean to cause offence and is a good point and I know others will google this thread.

My first litter costs

Whelping box and extension kit - £350
New Dog non ruck mats x4 - £64
Whelping kit supplies £65
Scan £45
Vet fees incl caeserian- £250
Puppy milk, wormer etc- £30
Stud fee - approx £500
Heat pad £52

Total spent £1350

This does not include many other small items, extra food, stress and worry or the cost to all adults and children in the house when the second puppy we hand fed for two days died.

I could have bought a pup of my breed for half this amount but have the bug and want to breed and show my own girls. Even if I decide to sell my girl to a pet home I will wait until she is old enough to spay and I will pay for that and I may get £400 from her sale as a pet so best case scenario I will be down over a thousand pound having paid for her spay. If I keep her then as you will see my first pup will have cost me approx £1400.

I hope this help see I am most certainly not viewing this as a way to make money. No one in my breed does.

PS since my other little girl died I have subsequently spwnt another £300 on an incubator at Crufts on the off chance that maybe if it happened again I might be better prepared and in a better position to do more to save her so that can also be added to the bill.

I am now almost 40 years old, have had dogs my whole life and am only now beginning to breed as I can now afford to try

annm i have spent alot more than you at the vets but thats life and i suppose alot of people in the breed have spent more emergency treatment at vets does not come cheap but my dogs are my children so the money has been well spent but i do know how you feel

as for a whelping box you can do like i have done and thats to construct 1 yourself all it takes is laminated shelfs that most diy places sell and then either small shelf brackets or small angle to fix the sides together then hardboard on the bottom and away you go for a small cost you have a whelping box that will last you a long time annm