Hiya
Me again!
We introduced my sister's 8 yr old labrador to Amber today and unfortunately Boycie got fed up with her after 15 minutes and went for her!
Boycie is such a good tempered dog, and I really don't blame him for what he done. I realise there is 8 yrs between them and that he's settled down and obviously doesn't like puppies jumping around him, but am now worried as to when we can re-introduce them again.
I guess it's best to wait until she's grown alot more, but how long should I leave it?
Amber's got a tooth cut to her leg, near her knee. We've spoken to our vets who have said because we've treated it and bandaged it, she should be OK, but we are taking her down there tomorrow morning just to get the vet to check her out.
My sister is sooooo upset, but I told her not to be. We tried it, it didn't work.

Hi

I wouldn't worry too much as a pesky puppy needs telling off when they are going too far. She will learn how far she can go and hopefully they will become best of friends.

When we introduced Moose to our two elder girl Labs we had fun and games whilst they all got used to each other and found where they all stood in the pack. It didn't take too long for her to realise her limitations !! Even though she will push it now and will still get a telling of from Min!

Lucy

Hi Lucy
Many thanks for your reply.
We're going to my sisters on Christmas Day and the way I feel at the moment, I'd rather leave Amber at home and have our neighbour check on her throughout the day. Do you think this is what we should do, or do you think we should re-introduce them on that day or sooner?
Obviously I'd feel very wary as and when this does happen cos I don't want my "baby" getting hurt again.
I don't know what to do :(

I would try and get them together again but just keep an eye out and watch what happens. Be there ready to act if Amber does get a bit too much, but the more they meet the easier it should get.

I will say though on Christmas day if there are kids and lots of noise and things going on Amber may find it all a bit too much. I would wait and see how you get on but I am sure you will be OK.

Lucy

Thanks Lucy.
I think we'll leave it for a while. Maybe re-introduce them after Christmas but we'll make sure that both are on leads, just in case.
She's gonna get alot of cuddles when I get home from work later.
Pete, my husband, has had her in his office at home with him ever since it happened this morning.
Apparently she's limping a bit, but the vet will check her out tomorrow. Bless her!

I am sure she will be OK.

Give her a cuddle for me !

Lucy

Older dogs must be allowed to escape from puppies, but don't worry too much if the pup is put in it's place, thats only right. Ja:)kie

Thanks Lucy and Jackie for your support
I got my husband to check her gums and they're pink. I just had this nasty feeling that they'll be white and that she'll be in shock! Poor thing. I guess this has taught her a lesson!
Lisa

Sorry Lisa, I'm trying not to laugh, the pup will have had much worse from her dam, bitches sound as if they are about to tear the pup limb from limb but when it's over you will be lucky it the pup has as much as a bit of spit on it. Ja:)kie

Thanks Jackie :)
I think she frit the life out of Boycie actually. He's not used to having a young dog hanging off his lip! lol :)

I am having a similar problem. Having just finalized getting my Boxer bitch (15 weeks) a dog walker and adjusting my work hours to fit more easily for her, I now have this NEW problem:

13 month old Pekignese bitch mix (Bella) [My girlfriend's dog]
15 week old Boxer bitch (Blue) [My dog]

Blue bothers Bella for hours, taking breif breaks only when we pull out treats when we train them, etc. to calm them down. They've been spending quite a bit of time together lately but tonight Bella bit Blue pretty bad (at least to a novice dog owner as myself). I can't tell when the playing gets out of hand because neither one yelps or looks like they are in pain. They just keep going. And although Blue didn't seem to mind the blood, my poor heart can't taking seeing my baby cut like that.

I'm thinking of avoiding Bella until Blue has gotten much older.

Is this a good idea?? Or am I being over-protective??

Steve

King and Lou.....everyone has given you some pretty good advice but they failed to mention one key piece. You should make it a rule to pay more attention the the alpha dog (older dog). Afterall, it is his territory. And although i'm sure your older dog knows that it is just a puppy, there is only so much a dog can take. Unless you want to further deteriorate the relationship between your dogs I suggest you always feed the older dog first, greet him first, give him treats first, play with him more than the younger pup, etc. This will help reassure your older dog that he is still the alpha and there is no reason to feel jealous or aggressive towards the pup.

There is also one other thing....although it may sound totally backwards and cruel, if your alpha decides to attack the pup, you must never immediately run and comfort the pup. Alpha is simply teaching beta a lesson and asserting his dominance. Unless alpha is trying to literally tear beta apart, I wouldn't be too worried about it. 99% of all dog quarrels consist of bluffs and very seldom escalate to an all out brawl, especially between older dogs and puppies.

I mean think about it, if you were being harrassed by a 6 year old for hours on end, wouldn't you get frustrated too? Next time you allow them to socialize with each other, remember to pay more attention to your alpha than your beta. This will comfort your alpha with the fact that he will realize that he is not being replaced. Remember, the more pets in the household, the less attention each one will get. I doubt any dog is happy about that, especially after eight years of being the "only child."

Furthermore, jealousy may not be the source of the aggression. Did you ever think that maybe your alpha dog simply gets fed up with the constant nipping and barking and jumping? If you visit dog parks often you will notice that dogs often "fight off" their playmates when they dont want to play anymore.

My advice is to allow alpha and beta to socialize, but in short time intervals gradually progressing into longer time intervals. This will ensure that alpha isn't being smothered by beta and gets some time apart.

Once your pups get "yelled" at a few times they will get the message loud and clear. It's completely natural for the older dog to lay down a foundation for structure and rules within the household for the younger pup that he must abide by. Afterall, dogs live via a hierarchy.

I strongly advise you to do some research on pack theory. I think you will not only find it helpful, but fascinating at the same time. But dont confuse dog pack theory with wolf pack theory. They may be very similar, but they have very distinct differences as well. Hopefully I've been of some assistance. Keep us posted on your progress! = )

Thanks for the advice. I'm learning more and more about this. But I am still confused.

Is the older dog always the alpha?
Sometimes it seems my Boxer pup, Blue, shows her who's boss and other times the Pekignese mix, Bella, show's her who's boss.

How can you distinguish play from a fight?
Because they have actually gotten in a fight before and I knew it right away, they both got on their hind legs and went at it. But this time it seeemed they were both getting into the mouthing and pulling each others face. But when it came time for the 15 min break I see my puppy is bleeding. Now I would rather my puppy not fight at all, but I have been told that I need to let the dogs work out the hierarchy. But you are definitely right about my Boxer, she will bother the other dog with no end. We break it up here and there to give Bella a break, and even take lil training breaks which really works, but like I said this looked as if they were finally both having fun.

How do we give the older dog a break, which she needs, without disturbing the hierarchy?

Steve

It's not very easy to distinguish a fight (especially if your inexperienced with puppies). However, there are some somewhat subtle hints that indicate a brawl escalating. For example, when dogs are playing they will usually bark high pitch barks. If you notice deep, low pitch growling (especially originating from the belly) then it is usually a sure indication that said dog is becoming annoyed. Some other definite sign of a fight is snarls, extreme teeth bearing, hair standing erect on the back along the spine, and biting and shaking vigorously and simultaneously.

Unless you suspect a fight (which is usually very difficult to detect to the untrained eye), NEVER jump in yelling and screaming trying to seperate them. All this does is further excite both dogs and provokes them to fight harder because they feel more reassured by the owner's presence. If, however, they engage in an all out brawl, it is a good idea to have a hose handy to spray them with because the cold water will at the very least stun them (especially since they are both pups and it will frighten them) giving you the opportunity to seperate them. Since you probably won't have access to a hose at a park, there is a product that you can use in it's place. It's called Bitter Apple. Esentially, all this is is a spray that tastes really bad to your dog. It should do the trickWhen seperating them, you should grab your pup by the base of the tail and pull them away from each other. NEVER pull by the collar of the neck lest you get bitten yourself. Remember, the neck is where they instinctively go for.

You asked how can you tell which dog is the alpha dog. This can get very complicated being that both of your dogs are puppies and puppies tend to test each other's limits and are constantly bickering because they are unsure of their status on the social ladder.

I suggest you try taking them to neutral grounds (a park or a field) and letting them alone together. If they start to growl and snap at each other leave them alone. Do not get involved unless they begin tearing each other apart. 95% of the time they are simply bluffing and it rarely escalates into a fight. To make it simple, they are simply trying to determine who outranks the other.

I strongly suggest that you do some research on dog pack theory and "calming signals." I think you will find it very helpful, as well as extremely fascinating. It gives you an understanding as to how dogs communicate and operate within a pack. You can go to Google.com (a very good search engine) and type in "dog pack theory" and/or "calming signals for dogs." You should get dozens of websites with a seemingly infinite amount of information. Additionally, I suggest you go to the bookstore and purchase a few books on puppies. I've found that the "Dummies" series books are particularly helpful in contrast to the rest. They explain things in amazing detail and it's extremely easy to read. You'll probably also find some books on dog pack theory as well. Do your research, you won't regret it. After about 4-5 books you'll feel like an expert in dog behavior, training, and dog language. Soon YOU will be the one giving the advice! Good luck!

Rob

Dear King, I don't know why but my post didn't go to the bottom of the list. Scroll up and read the "small essay" i wrote for you. I think you'll find it helpful. = )

When you say she bit him do you mean she drew blood? does she have an excape route, some where she can go that the pup can't, if not you must arrange one. :)

Yes she drew blood.

And I want them to be freinds, and Blue didn't seemed to mind, I could tell she wanted to hang out with Bella even after the incident, but I have no desire to see my dogs with cuts on its face no matter how lil.

How do we give the older dog a break, which she needs, without disturbing the hierarchy?

Steve

If she drew blood then IMO she is beeing pushed to far, can you not put a board up in the doorway that the older dog can get over and the puppy can't.
Someone asked if the eldest is always top dog, no, particulaly if they are very old or have been spayed or castrated. And it is common for the top dog to be a bitch. J:)

Dear king (again lol), scroll up about 3-5 posts. For some reason my posts aren't going to the bottom of the list.

Bull,
If you reply to the original thread posting, your new post will go to the bottom of the page. Otherwise they pretty much stagger off of the next one you're answering....
but if someone else has already answered to that specific message, you'll be down the line in order of who posted first.

I hope this makes sense.
toodles

Thanks, i finally realized that after the third time i posted. Haven't slept in 2 days cuz of my poor kitty, im a little tired.

Thanks everyone, especially BullBoxer4Life you have been very helpful. I will take this information and do some further research. As you can tell this is my first puppy and I just want to make she is happy and well behaved.

The biting and shaking is definitely familiar, they both do it.

Good suggestion Jackie H, but unfortunately the bothersome one (the puppy) is larger. I think the best solution is to separate more frequently and learn more about the signs of a stressed dog.

Thanks again guys/girls, this definitely helped.

Steve

Nipping during playtime is only natural. It's a very important part of all puppy's social development. Just like when you were a kid, i'm sure you enjoyed wrestling with the kids at school right? It's all apart of growing up. How else will they learn what's hard biting and what's not? Let them play if they want, just don't let them tear each other apart. Nipping is normal, you shouldn't prevent them from doing it. Good luck!

Rob