Chip

> I have two other playfull dogs and they like to play with the puppy and they all get on well....

You have 3 already and as you've said they all seem to get on well.  The challenging behaviour from your 10 week old toward you and the other dogs is normal but as so many others have told you it will take some managing from you.  Make sure you and your family are completely consistent with your rules and invest in a couple of baby gates if you don't already have them.  Gates are a great way to allow each dog some time out and also to give you an opportunity for some 1:1 time with each of your dogs.

Many dogs do well in larger groups but the 'packs' that seem to work best are those with a great age spread - I suppose that mimics what would happen in nature.

Although the breeders you've spoken to are vouching for the temperaments of their dogs it's difficult for them to assess how well they'd do in your household and you can already see that wanting something to happen doesn't always make it so! 

Enjoy the 3 you have and leave the 4th for another time.  Your 10 week old puppy needs a big chunk of your time for now :)

Chip - I meant to add 'well done you' for changing your mind about another puppy.  It's really hard to say no, even when you know it's for the right reasons so all credit to you xxx

Sorry dogs a babe that was a typo LOL  it should have read i have two playfull dogs... Noo and the puppy. 2 not 3 lol. Better be careful i may be hung out o dry for that typo lol

I mean a 2 yr old and 4 yr old would then still not fight? you have me quite worried now by your comments.  How many of you have more than one female, who have answered my questions and answer me honestly... Do they fight?


The problem with us is that we introduce dogs to live together as family, and sometimes the choices that we make can cause major upset and great problems in a household, you have to always look at the character of the dog that you have and not get something that will clash with it, all breeds have their own traits and characters that is the first stepping stone, so you need to be careful which breed you mix with which, once over that, leaving a good age gap then helps as the older female should be respected by the younger pup, if the pup is introduced to a younger or adolescent then the same respect is not always going to be there.

Re: Bitches living together. My mother has always had a large number of bitches and dogs, the pack she has left now are Show and Working Cockers, the Alpha bitch is extremely charasmatic and every bitch introduced has always known their place, there has never, ever been any in-fighting the pack work extremely well together any problems are settled with body language the occassional baring of teeth but no physical contact at all, larger gundogs i.e family labs and GR's also accept that she is the Alpha when they are together. My girl also accepts her and the rest of the pack into the household with no problems at all.

But for instance if a female Akita or larger more dominant breed were to become part of the household, maybe even a BC then I would expect major heirarchy issues, so firstly you must assess breed clashes.

Next if choosing a new pup and you have a strong alpha then you don't choose the pup giving off clear alpha signs in the litter (yes you can tell that early) you choose a pup from the middle range of character (Unless choosing a show dog) to complement the bitch/bitches that you already have.

Many of us have bitches living together extremely happily, but it is down to us to make the right choices although we can train a dog and become the authority figure a dogs character is always there from birth, it's place in the litter is easy to see, so when choosing your next pup if you use an experienced breeder they will match your new pup to your household and you can happily have two bitches together. :-)

I'm sure no one here wants to hang you out to dry,think sometimes people just get a bit too intense lol. And there may be a few who dont perhaps have a degree in tact and diplomacy  either but I think all of us try to give anyone who asks the benefit of their good advice. Enjoy your 2 little girls for now,theres plenty of time for you to add to your fur family when your pup has grown up a bit.
Kind Regards

I'd like to say well done for going with your head and saying no to the second pup for the time being.  I think that is an excellent decision and one you will definitely not regret.

My own experience with keeping a few bitches together - we have 2 entire males at home and 5 bitches.

Oldest bitch GSD aged 7, Staffie bitch 6, Akita bitch nearly 4, Rottie bitch 17mths, Leonberger bitch 8 mths.  (I have to add the 7 dogs live in the same household but are owned individually by myself, my mum and my sister)

The only problems that we have come across is with my darling Akita bless her.  She has been great with the younger dogs coming into the household but not necessarily with the one's already there.  However, she is not aggressive and will not look to start trouble she just doesn't have alot of tolerance and her moods change with the wind lol!

For my own dogs I have 18 months between them - personally I would prefer 2 years or more.  My next pup will not be arriving until my now 2 year old male Rott is atleast 4 or 5 years old....I need a break from puppyhood!

I hope it isn't genuine aggression at this age. If it is? it is usually a health problem. The breeder should have spotted this if she had handled her puppies from birth. Breeders are not usally silly people to sell what they know to be a aggressive or extremly nervous puppy where there are children. Have you spoke to the breeder? She should know her stock. If the parents are good natured, I would have the vet do an overall. Just incase!

Denese

Hi!

New to this great site!

U sound like a wonderful, responsible & caring person. I wld be proud to call u & your family 'friends'!!

My extended family bred Airedales in the 1930s & 40s & my sister, myself & my Mom bred Shelties for 17 yrs (stopped in 2006 but still have 4 left).
                                                                                                                                               It was very small kennel, bred for temperment & health with conformation third..My favorite part of the puppy process was the temperment evaluations - fascinating how different each pup can be in a litter..
                                                                                                            
We were also into rescue so I know of whence u speak..Nowadays I am not as mobile so can only contribute by volunteering to walk fostered dogs & monetarily supporting various groups..

I believe u have made the correct, although for u & your family a sad decision, to not get another puppy right now. Later on, when u do get another u will have been able to enjoy each pup as a unique individual and give each a great start....

With regards the puppy growling - with regrets to those who say pups of this age can't be aggressive...I do not agree!                                                                                                                               While its not like the common fear or 'bully' aggression of older dogs, it is litter mate or 'challenge Mum' aggression and can become a problem if allowed to continue.
                                                             
I suggest u behave like a 'bitch'  :) - simply growl back when the puppy growls at u and if the puppy nips u, make your hand into a claw & touch the back of its neck. If that doesn't stop the behavior then gently take hold of the scruff of its neck, lift its front paws slightly off the ground (this makes the puppy feel a bit helpless & not in control) and shake very gently.                                                                             Its exactly what its Mum wld have done and triggers submissive behavior!                                             U are establishing yourself as the 'Alpha'  (replacing its Mum) and the pup will grow up secure in the knowledge u will keep him/her safe..Probably will challenge u again, the best pups do but only for awhile. 

Its got to make sure u are confident enough for the leadership role :)

Hope my advice helps..:)

I suggest u behave like a 'bitch'   - simply growl back when the puppy growls at u and if the puppy nips u, make your hand into a claw & touch the back of its neck. If that doesn't stop the behavior then gently take hold of the scruff of its neck, lift its front paws slightly off the ground (this makes the puppy feel a bit helpless & not in control) and shake very gently.                                                                             Its exactly what its Mum wld have done and triggers submissive behavior!                                             U are establishing yourself as the 'Alpha'  (replacing its Mum) and the pup will grow up secure in the knowledge u will keep him/her safe..Probably will challenge u again, the best pups do but only for awhile. 

Its got to make sure u are confident enough for the leadership role

Sorry to disagree but in my honest opinion that would make things worse...

Lindsay
x

If that doesn't stop the behavior then gently take hold of the scruff of its neck, lift its front paws slightly off the ground (this makes the puppy feel a bit helpless & not in control) and shake very gently.                                                                             Its exactly what its Mum wld have done and triggers submissive behavior!                                             U are establishing yourself as the 'Alpha' 

I've never yet seen a DAM pick an over zealous pup up by the scruff and shake it, pups generally play quite aggressivley, some can look like tazmanian devils and look and act extremely aggressively, but it is all play and asserting themselves over other litter mates, something that they need to do to earn their place in the pack and some of the pups can look to be extremely vicious. I've never yet seen a Dam interfere with this play, my girl will only pin down and roll to wash a pup never to stop a pups play. Pups generally get away with murder only when a little older will they be put in their place by a growl or just a look to this day I have yet to see a scruff shake.

I don't agree in acting like a dog, we are human's, we exert our authority by being human, offering reward for good behaviour and time outs for bad, if you act like a dog you may well find that you are treated like a dog if our authority is questioned by a dominant character we're likely to get bitten, not all dogs will submit to an aggressive stance.

It is always interesting to hear of how others train dogs, I've trained quite a number of dogs over the years and never once needed to act as a dog.

Welcome to the site by the way. :-)

>I've never yet seen a DAM pick an over zealous pup up by the scruff and shake it

Nor me. They'll hold the head or muzzle and softly growl, but never pick up and shake, or pin down.

Thanks for the greeting.

We have seen bitches do exactly this with puppies, in my 17 yrs breeding dogs...Not often & not when the puppy is playing with other pups but when they do not listen to the bitches 'growl' warning...              
Have seen them take the puppies heads in their mouths or the muzzles also (but I do not do advocate doing that) and sometimes she shifts position to turn her back on the pup thereby ignoring it & isolating it for a moment or two also..Seems like a 'human-like' response to me...so why shldn't a human act 'dog-like' to get the response we want?

I advocate first making a claw of your fist and touching the back of the dogs neck (while making a deep throated retort) & only continuing the action if the dog doesn't stop the behaviour and doing it 'GENTLY ' merely to trigger the 'subconsious' submissive response. Sometimes I simply grasp the scruff only (no shake) and if the pup relaxes which suggests submission, I release. Usually don't need to do it again..

I use and highly recommend the reward system most of the time and only use this when other methods have failed..

This is simply for a puppy challenging their human..which obviously the pup does not respect 'cause its growling &/or showing its teeth..I am not talking about the 'play' growling a puppy does, like when u play tug-a-war, only when it is seriously being possessive/aggressive!
I have used this technique myself several times with my own & rescue pups & the occasional dog & have successfully asserted or reasserted myself as the 'Alpha'. I then wait a few moments for the pup to think about it, then divert it with a toy...Later I repeat whatever triggered the behavior. Most times the pup never challenges me again..!!
                                                                                                                                           
Its not a behavior u want or shld ignore.. Besides, what technique shld be employed when the other ones fail - be 'human' and ask it verbally to behave?  :) 

I am always open to learning new things & to share ideas. Thanks for sharing yours. :)

>> We have seen bitches do exactly this with puppies, in my 17 yrs breeding dogs.

You have seen bitches pick up 10 week old puppies(or older) ??? In my 50 years of having dogs I have never seen a pick pick up a puppy more than a couple of weeks old, I have seen bitches discipline their older offspring with a paw but never seen one actually attempt or manage to pick up an older puppy & shake it. I've seen a mother grab an older puppy(like one that was 6 years old)by the scruff, but that was it. No rolling, no carrying etc etc

When puppies are under 6 months or so, all the bitches(& older dogs)have allowed the puppies to do almost anything & then move out of the way when it gets too much for them.

This puppy is not being truly aggressive, it just has no manners & needs to learn it's boundaries, not to be punished for a behaviour.

What you do may be the norm for you & whatever breed you have, but it wouldn't work on the dogs I have owned & bred

I advocate first making a claw of your fist and touching the back of the dogs neck (while making a deep throated retort) & only continuing the action if the dog doesn't stop the behaviour and doing it 'GENTLY ' merely to trigger the 'subconsious' submissive response. Sometimes I simply grasp the scruff only (no shake) and if the pup relaxes which suggests submission, I release. Usually don't need to do it again..

I use and highly recommend the reward system most of the time and only use this when other methods have failed..

This is simply for a puppy challenging their human..which obviously the pup does not respect 'cause its growling &/or showing its teeth..

Hi,

Also sorry to disagree but in my experience what you are talking about doing here is likely to make things worse - if it works in that the puppy associates the scruff grabbing or touching with the growling over what it has it only supresses a behaviour.  Resource guarding, which isn't that uncommon in puppies is about insecurity and fear of them losing something valuable, nothing to do with them not respecting their person!  The dog needs to learn to associate a person near their things and being moved as a good thing, by doing swapsies as suggested by others,  by teaching a give and a leave using reward based methods.  Always much better to teach a pup what you want it to do rather than punishing it for what you don't want.

I have only ever known of a bitch doing what you describe once, she was an aggressive bitch that shouldn't have had a litter and was very hard on her pups, not a good mum and all of the litter went on to have aggression problems.  Regardless of that we are people not dogs and they know we are not.  Our timing and body language can be pretty inept compared to dogs speaking their own language and trying to emulate these methods ends up doing more harm than good.  If we get our timing slightly wrong a few times with rewards based methods, then no harm done, doing things by punishing can cause harm full stop let alone if we do it incorrectly!

> How many of you have more than one female, who have answered my questions and answer me honestly... Do they fight?

I have had up to five bitches at any one time.  Minimum of 18 months (though that is now between a puppy and a two year old), but more usually nearly 3 years between them in age.

You are less likely to get hierarchy issues with a decent age gap because it is more natural for older dogs to be e higher ranking than the young ones, unless the younger is very pushy and the older remarkably Omega.

I must say my breed are pretty sociable with their own kind and in some breeds fighting with the same sex is more of an issue than in others.

Your breed are quite reactive and terrierish, so this is more likely to lead to situations of over stimulation that can lead to fights with neither backing off.

Sorry but when did I say a bitch shakes '10 wk old puppy'?

I was trying to explain how I am attempt to 'trigger' the 'submissive response' and as u said 'teach it its boundaries' and being respectful to the highest (or u shld be) member in the pack is one isn't it?            The response can be triggered in any age of dog..IMO - U have another and I respect that.

I guess I failed to explain myself clearly enough.                                                                             

Lets agree to disagree shall we... :)

>Sorry but when did I say a bitch shakes '10 wk old puppy'?

The original post in the thread is about a 10-week old puppy, and your advice was to 'do what the bitch would do - pick it up by the scruff and shake it'.

>I suggest u behave like a 'bitch'   - simply growl back when the puppy growls at u and if the puppy nips u, make your hand into a claw & touch the back of its neck. If that doesn't stop the behavior then gently take hold of the scruff of its neck, lift its front paws slightly off the ground (this makes the puppy feel a bit helpless & not in control) and shake very gently.

> Sorry but when did I say a bitch shakes '10 wk old puppy'?

> Lets agree to disagree shall we... :-)

Well it may be the norm in Canada, but here in the UK it is not the norm for a human to scruff a very young puppy, that is showing normal puppy behaviour. It is very important when replying to questions like this to read the original questions & note where the poster lives.

You've been breeding for 17 years ? & have owned & trained dogs & owners for ?? years ?

This puppy is not showing aggression & by using advice from this formal the OP has managed to improve her puppies behaviour. Without seeing the puppy in question you are in no position to advise physical punishment for a behaviour that is the norm for 99.99999999999999% of puppies & all that is needed is education of the puppy to correct the problem

This forum often turns up in google searches & so it is very important that suitable advice is given.

When I first started being a dog owner, it was the norm to physically punish puppies for not being house trained & dogs in general whilst training them, I was lucky to met a brilliant trainer who did not use this methods & so I learnt early about positive reinforcement methods back in 1964 when I started training other people's problem dogs, problems I must add caused by physical correction including that which you advocate.

Humans are not & can never be "Alphas"in the eyes of their dogs. They are providers, dogs are aware that we are not dogs.

>I advocate first making a claw of your fist and touching the back of the dogs neck (while making a deep throated retort) & only continuing the action if the dog doesn't stop the behaviour and doing it 'GENTLY ' merely to trigger the 'subconsious' submissive response. Sometimes I simply grasp the scruff only (no shake) and if the pup relaxes which suggests submission, I release. Usually don't need to do it again

This is very punitive correction, having watched our last GSD with Cavalier & Border Collie puppies she never behaved as you think she would have. She either walked away or laid a paw on the puppy. puppies growl as a warning due to lack of trust in their human provider. Once their is trust the behaviour will cease

I have my opinion and u yours - I respect yours and wish u wld respect mine.. instead of critizing!!            I do not tell u this or that will happen with your method but u don't hesitate to do that with my suggestions & some folks use words & phrases that are borderline sarcasim & a bit rude...IMO anyway.. 
                                                                     
Seems to me today there seems to always be new & some 'fashionable' method of training being tried all the time. Some are proven benefical and others not so much..
                                                                    
Lets remember the Benjamin Spock method which was at one time touted as being the very pinnacle for raising children - who knows how many dog rearing methods today will be considered not so useful in the future also. Someday u may find u might find yourself full circle: Remember the 'new' math  :)  now defunct and the 'old' is back in...
                                                                                                                                                I wld also like to point out a lot of folks pushing these 'new' methods make their living doing so and therefore are not unbiased. Seems to me anyway, this 'run to and pay' a 'behaviorist' for example every time a puppy or dog does something easily cured with simple ordinary 'old fashioned' understanding & training done at home & costing nothing, is simply, for the behaviorists, a nice way to earn a living.

I highly favor & respect folks trying whatever they feel is right for them and bless them for attempting to do the best they can for their dogs..It's their right so please, don't critize those who choose to keep or choose older ways, thats their right!
                                                                                                                                            Our methods I say sincerely - that they work, cheaply, easily and permanently for us anyway.
                                     
My puppies when they became dogs have never bitten anyone or destroyed anything, they obey myself and their new owners, they have loving joyful personalities & are not insecure or messed up in any way!          We never had any dogs returned or complained about as we were always able to assist our buyers with any concerns and taught them how to train their dogs & without needing a behaviorist either!

Only 1 dog ended up in rescue and then only because his owner died and the relatives didn't know they should call the breeder & wanted the dog gone asap. He was rehomed immediately - He was a champion in the show ring and was an OCD also....
                                                                                                                            
I have had dozens of owners request a new puppy from thousands of miles away simply because of the quality of my dogs confirmation, health & their temperments..My waiting lists were sometimes 2 yrs long..

How many folks can say that in over 17 yrs & hundreds of dogs - so plse - I humbly request the same respect I have afforded u!

Oh yes, some posters simply hone in on 1 remark ignoring the balance of the post - seems to me at least u could respond to the whole post or perhaps u have a reason for not doing that?

Thankyou!

> Seems to me today there seems to always be new & some 'fashionable' method of training being tried all the time> Lets remember the Benjamin Spock method which was at one time touted as being the very pinnacle for raising children

> I wld also like to point out a lot of folks pushing these 'new' methods make their living doing so and therefore are not unbiased. Seems to me anyway, this 'run to and pay' a 'behaviorist' for example every time a puppy or dog does something easily cured with simple ordinary 'old fashioned' understanding & training done at home & costing nothing, is simply, for the behaviorists, a nice way to earn a living.

> How many folks can say that in over 17 yrs & hundreds of dogs

I hardly call a "method"that is some 45 years old "Modern"

OK so I haven't bred hundreds of dogs in the last 17 years TBH I would run a mile from any breeder who did so & used it as a mark of quality.

I do not make a living from being a"behaviourist", I have been paid to train dogs, not give "behaviour"consultations for huge sums of money. I'm a dog trainer NOT a behaviourist. The two are not the same thing. I do not believe in the "human pack leader""human Alpha"this is fashionable theory of some of the "celeb"behaviourists who have a huge following in North America.

None of my puppies ended up in rescue nor has any of them bitten anyone. Why should they ? My GSDs were bred for temperament as were my Beardies. Oddly enough I have a waiting for my next litter & the dam hasn't even been born yet !

> Lets remember the Benjamin Spock method which was at one time touted as being the very pinnacle for raising children

Not in the UK he wasn't If you mention Spock to people here they think of Leonard Nimoy's Startrek character

I am confused - 'method' - 'modern' - what did I post to prompt that? I never used the word modern..'method' yes, 'modern' NO!

I didn't say u were a behaviorist, seems to me I said SOME folks are.. My comments were NOT directed at anyone in particular, curious why u wld feel the need to defend yourself and to correct me..It seemed to make u defensive or sensitive or perhaps I am missing something..I have also 'trained' dogs as is my daughter & we use(d) some, what today are considered behavorist traits, a lot of which were simply observing the behavior (used to be called common sense)  and while not the same 'thing' - one can wear 2 hats if one is capable enough...

Of course, dogs shldn't bite, I so agree with u and my animals were so well bred & trained they did not but u have to admit many dogs do or there wldn't be so many owners needing help with same, correct?

Now as to your comment 'u wld run a mile from a breeder for 17 yrs', that is a direct attempt to insult and totally unwarranted & IMO, unkind also.
I do not insult u, why do u attempt to insult me - It must make u feel superior in some way although this comment certainly illustrates u are not!! Besides how does trying to insult me help other dog owners with their problems??

Sorry - nice try but I shall simply take it from whence it came!

As for your UK comment regarding 'Spock'..  Messed up a lot of youngers in NA and sorry to inform u, also some in the UK/Europe also..besides what difference where kids got messed up, its the 'why' & 'how' thats important!

Oh by the way, whatever u choose to call it 'Alpha' 'dominant', 'leadership' ?? it exists IMO anyway and I disagree (respectfully) - a human 'must' be a leader to their dog...I have in all my years with animals & esp dogs, have seen at times co-leaders or a different leader at different times but one is the 'ultimate leader' all the time and with dogs living with humans it had better be the human!!!

I shall not respond again - its unfortunate but there seems to be too many folks 'attacking' on this site for my taste! Happy now, its all yours again!!

like to point out a lot of folks pushing these 'new' methods make their living doing so and therefore are not unbiased.

Hi,

The above is a quote from your previous post maybe that will clarify where the modern methods comment came from, modern meaning new and intended to be different from traditional styles, we can only go on what you write, this forum is a place for advice and debate and if people dissagree with what others write or have experience that the advice being offered can be detrimental then it is important to point out the negative consequences so that the original person posting has all the facts and can make a decision based on that.

These methods are not new or modern, clicker training and reward based training based on classical and operant conditioning which has actually been around since the 1930s.  You mat have had no problems differing breeds will make a difference to that, there are some breeds that unfortunately tolerate punishment from people much more than others.  Just because they tolerate it does not mean it is a good way or the only way of training.  Clasical and operant conditioning wa used to train various animals to do jobs where failure wasn't an option in WW2.
There are many different species of animals that can be trained using these methods, dolphins, birds, lions.  We can't use force or punishment to train these animals so have to find another way to get their compliance, just because we can punish because all too often unfortunately they take it dogs does not make it right, acceptable or in any way the best way to train.

In my opinion you can't get the same kind of intense relationship and working connection using punishment, even if it is along side rewards based training. 

I do not insult u, why do u attempt to insult me - It must make u feel superior in some way although this comment certainly illustrates u are not!! Besides how does trying to insult me help other dog owners with their problems??

I don't think anyone is insulting you or trying to, like I said this is a forum for public opinion and it is not insulting to have a differing opinion, I would be very interested to hear your views on why the methods suggested here are not right or may be less effective than what you suggest? :-)

There are many people on here that do work with dogs for a living and share their opinions and knowledge with others on this forum because they love dogs and want other owners to have the best relationship with their dog.  It is against TOS to advertise yourself and most people would be anaware of who on here is a trainer or behaviourist other than maybe guessing because of the level of knoweldsge they share.  It is not a thing to do with money and the only benefit is for other people seeking advise for their dogs and to suggest other wise in my opinion is the only insulting thing said in relation to your posts.

Oh by the way, whatever u choose to call it 'Alpha' 'dominant', 'leadership' ?? it exists IMO anyway and I disagree (respectfully) - a human 'must' be a leader to their dog...

This thoery has been discredited by many and even by those experts who initially researched and wrote about it.  I have never been and alpha to my dogs and always have after lots of work, (because I usually take on rescues with problems) have amazing companions who I cherish and have a great partnership with and know they can do as I ask of them because I have trained for this in a way that makes it fun for them to comply :-)

This is not an attack on you personally but I do believe the methods you advise can have adverse effects on puppies and adult dogs alike and many on here feel it important for other to be aware of the negative side of this type of training.  There really is no need for you to not post again.

>Now as to your comment 'u wld run a mile from a breeder for 17 yrs', that is a direct attempt to insult and totally unwarranted & IMO, unkind also.

If you are going to quote me quote me correctly

I wrote "OK so I haven't bred hundreds of dogs in the last 17 years TBH I would run a mile from any breeder who did so & used it as a mark of quality."

Not a breeder of 17 years but one who had bred hundreds of puppies in that relatively short space of time & boasts it is a sign of quality-a sign of quantity perhaps, but not necessarily quality.

Just as an aside-this is a forum not a texting group so textspeak makes some posts very hard to understand

This forum often turns up in google searches & so it is very important that suitable advice is given.

Very true... :)

Thread off topic.