Someone talking sense just now on GMTV, shame he didn't have longer to talk though!

Oh rats!
I was watching BBC.
(Ice on the tracks so no trains running in South east England >rollseyes< so I cant get into work)

I knew we could trust Peter.
Give him a Blue Peter badge !!
He put a thing or two striaght. Shame he did not have longer to talk. I was late for work,(so whats new) , as I wanted to listen to him. I know this is daft but because of Blue Peter etc, He is like the kindly wise Uncle I think people will be inclined to listen to him.
He referred to "that" documentary and how biased it was. He pointed out that RSPCA never sponsored only had a trade stand.

Shame he was not given a bit more air time but the few minutes he had were effective.

Now he is a person the KC should have as their PR man :-)

He always makes sense, but then he does have pedigree dogs ;-)

could not agree more, at least he understand's dog's and can put it over so that everyone understands.

just watched sky news and it was painful.
I really wish the kc would employ a pr firm for there press etc.
There was also a little interview with a massiff judge / breeder who blamed pet owner for the problems in the breed???????
There are not helping the kc cause at all.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Crufts-the-worlds-most-famous-dog-show-to-be-broadcast-on-the-internet/Video/200903115234987?lpos=video_Article_Related_Content_Region_1&lid=VIDEO_15234987_Crufts%2C_the_worlds_most_famous_dog_show_to_be_broadcast_on_the_internet

I have to say those working bassets looked gorgeous!

The differences in the working and the show bred Bassets was enormous - there are many breeds split between working and show types, often merely size and coat colour / length being the most obvious departures but surely breeds which are clearly adversely affected by excessive wrinkle, eye problems, etc have no plausible defence for such extreme diversity in physical appearance :(

> but surely breeds which are clearly adversely affected by excessive wrinkle, eye problems, etc have no plausible defence for such extreme diversity in physical appearance

They do not and what a shame that this tiny minority of breeds has allowed it to be possible to dramatise the state of pedigree show dogs in general as being similarly afflicted.

LJS thanks for the links. ;-)

I have pei, 1 of the so called designer breeds, they have been around for hundreds of years.
yes some what changed, but if you watch them at show's you will see that they are fit and healty, and can still do the job they used to do, i.e. guarding, hunting, child minding ect, an all round dog.
most if not all show breeders have reduced the wrinkling and almost eradicated the eye tacking.
most show breeders never visit vets for skin. eyes ect, the figures that ar quoted mostly come from the breeders who don't put any thought into what they are doing, use the same stud because it's their's or there mates.
I also have a pug and my friend has a basset both supposed to be unhealthy breeds, you should see them all run and play together, again all tared with the same brush, be it show, working or just pet all should be healthy, why oh why can't people breed for the betterment of their chosen breed.
Pei started out in the uk with bad publicity that has not changed but the caring breeders have worked hard and made great improvements over the years working with a small gene pool, shame that the pet breeder population undermine almost everything that is done in almost every breed.
as for the working and show diffrence there is none in pei, but have a look at the lab, alsong with them having a go at the basset ect, the working lab is almost a diffrent breed when you look at the size and shape of it.

I agree Sue that many breeders in breeds which have been highlighted are and already were striving to improve things but it's indefensible in some breeds that things went so far in the first place.

Irresponsible breeders and judges do exist in the show world otherwise these excesses would only be apparent in 'pet bred' dogs which isn't the case. 

I'm behind you all the way re BYBs, PFs and one off pet breeders using any old dog on any old bitch causing a lot of the problems that the unsuspecting public, vets, behaviourists and rescues have to deal with - unfortunately those of us who try and breed for the betterment of our breeds do get tarred with the same brush and it's going to be increasingly difficult to get the message across when so much harm has already been done across several breeds and affecting all groups.

IMO to compare the show Lab with the working one as an example of different breeds is not the finest - OK, the working bred Lab is a more athletic creature but plenty of show bred Labs are kept in good physical order, well muscled and not allowed to become couch potatoes; the same can be said for working -v- show spaniels.  Again, the show 'version' is certainly not an example of a 'flawed' physical makeup, mainly differing head and coat types, but not in the same way as the Bassets in the link are for example.

Thankfully breeds suffering from serious excesses are in a minority and within those breeds irresponsible breeders are (hopefully) in the minority too - health tests have to be done and breeding programs worked out on the best results but over and above that excessive wrinkles, bulging eyes, completely flat muzzles, ridiculously low under carriages on Queen Ann legs etc have to bred out and strictly penalised in the show ring as should temperaments where dogs are quivering wrecks or far too 'game'.

If only the 'Fit for function Fit for life' attitude could be taken on board to mean that the 'function' of most of today's breeds is simply to be a friendly, safe, loyal family pet!

Another interesting debate :)

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Lunchtime-Web-Debate-Crufts-Controversy/Article/200903115235228?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Teaser_Region_9&lid=ARTICLE_15235228_Lunchtime_Web_Debate%3A_Crufts_Controversy

awwwww, want one!! they are gorgeous! i must say some bassets you see do obviously have problems, i met one once whos ears were dragging the ground!

> Another interesting debate

Much as I think he spouts a great deal of drivel I have to say this statement struck a chord or rather nail, squarely on head :(

Ryan, K9:  A person doesn't need to have a bred single dog to be an accredited breeder. I know how cheated I'd feel if employed an 'accredited' plumber only to learn he'd never even fixed a leaking tap. Again, lapse in standards causes problems across the whole spectrum of dog breeding

A shame Piers (DW) didn't get further than requesting to join in.  I'd hoped for a better balance from those involved in canine mags -v- canine press but it was not to be :(

> Another interesting debate

Read for a while until I got too bored.  Not much of a debate when there is nobody to represent an opposing view!

>Beverley Cuddy:  Sorry everyone got distracted for a few minutes doing a radio interview

Oh, the joys of being the centre of attention :-)

i think what the k.c are trying to achieve with the accredited breeder scheme is a long term plan. yes anyone at the moment can be an accredited breeder BUT if there is ANY negaive feedback on that breeder they will then lose that privelledge.
Im not saying that this is an ideal system by any way but i think its the best one they can think of at the time.
Even someone with all the knowledge in the world can be unscrupulous and not abide by the rules.
i think the idea is to weed these people out.

The idea of allowing people to join who have not and indeed may never breed a litter at all is IMO to massage the figures so giving a false impression of the support the scheme has.

The KC is fooling no-one but themselves :)

> so giving a false impression of the support the scheme has.
>

Surely that is a very accurate representation of the support it receives.  I think Ryan is missing the point too that this is a standard for breeding not an award for past achievements, that can be found in the show ring or working field :-), so it is quite right that people adopt it from the very outset.

> Surely that is a very accurate representation of the support it receives

I meant the actual support it receives from the majority of breeders whose stock they register as opposed to paper support - the paper support including those signed up who may or may not ever breed and some of which are BYBs for a multitude of other breeds they sell (unregistered) to support their hobby.   One only has to have a glance around at a general champ show car park to have eyes widely opened at the plethora of breeds advertised on some vans which are owned by exhibitors known only in one or two breeds .....

The figures published in the last Gazette for the number signed up to the ABS are clearly woefully short of the number of breeders who regularly compete at shows :)  And, the word in the tents  ( :-D ) is that's likely to remain the case.

> the paper support including those signed up who may or may not ever breed

You cannot get a greater definition of support that that surely.

> One only has to have a glance around at a general champ show car park to have eyes widely opened at the plethora of breeds advertised on some vans which are owned by exhibitors known only in one or two breeds .....

For as long as I have been involved with dogs there have been show breeder that also bed other breeds that they do not show for a variety of reasons but the scheme is not directed solely at show dogs.  It is to set a standard in breeding for anyone that registers litters.

>The figures published in the last Gazette for the number signed up to the ABS are clearly woefully short of the number of breeders who regularly compete at shows :-)&nbsp; And, the word in the tents&nbsp; ( :-D ) is that's likely to remain the case.

I think that is a great shame but thankfully many do.

> You cannot get a greater definition of support that that surely.

We'll have to agree to differ on that one I'm afraid - personally I find it to be the greatest definition of poor support when so few active breeders wish to be associated with a breeders' scheme.  But your view is exactly what the KC's poorly presented in house PR was aiming for so not a complete disaster then :)

Painful though it is to give credence to him, Ryan's plumber analogy was very apt IMO.

> But your view is exactly what the KC's poorly presented in house PR was aiming for so not a complete disaster then

Not so poor then if they have achieved the aim of at least some understanding what the scheme is intending to do even if it flew by Ryan :-) although I think this may be a breed thing as it would appear to be a lot better supported in some than others.

> Not so poor then if they have achieved the aim of at least some understanding what the scheme is intending to do even if it flew by Ryan

I don't think it flew by anyone Isabel :) 

Non breeders signing up to best practice on a breeding scheme has no value.  The acceptance of PFs and BYBs on an 'accredited' scheme has no value
Add the numbers of above together and the total, in comparison to those genuinely involved in best practice of breeding, has no value.

Do the maths :)

> I don't think it flew by anyone Isabel

I think it did.  The aim of the scheme is to "encourage the breeding of healthy, well-adjusted puppies".  When I think of all the thing I consider important in ethical breeding having bred previous litters would not figure.

> Non breeders signing up to best practice on a breeding scheme has no value.

Why would you have to breed to have the ability to understand the aims?

> Non breeders signing up to best practice on a breeding scheme has no value.&nbsp; The acceptance of PFs and BYBs on an 'accredited' scheme has no value

Yes it does as it demands they breed to the same standard.

>> I don't think it flew by anyone Isabel
> I think it did

again best we agree to differ :)

> Why would you have to breed to have the ability to understand the aims?

A bit like why would you have to drive to be a navigator - clearly it's not necessary for either HOWEVER if I wanted to be driven somewhere I'd be looking for a driver and were I looking for a puppy I'd be looking for a breeder

from my POV it's rather pointless getting hold of someone who doesn't provide the service but is well read on the subject unless just to pass the time of day.  Time would be better spent sourcing someone who can provide what was sought in the first instance  :)

ETA:-

> Non breeders signing up to best practice on a breeding scheme has no value The acceptance of PFs and BYBs on an 'accredited' scheme has no value

>Yes it does as it demands they breed to the same standard.

IMO the acceptance of these undesirables undermines the entire scheme - a view shared by a great many it would seem in view of the small membership thus far :)

>A bit like why would you have to drive to be a navigator - clearly it's not necessary for either HOWEVER if I wanted to be driven somewhere I'd be looking for a driver

If I wanted to get someone specific I think I would want them to be both :-) but to be honest I can't quite understand what you are getting at there :-o. 
To me it is not rocket science to understand the KCs information about the aims and requirements of the scheme so I can't see why anyone cannot read them and decide if you agreed with them and would wish to support them although personally I doubt many on the scheme do not intend to breed in the future if they have not already done so at some point in the past.

>IMO the acceptance of these undesirables undermines the entire scheme

They cannot be so undesirable as to be failing to meet the requirements without risking expulsion but if they were going to breed anyway better they do it to this standard which is the whole point.

Peter Purves - love that man!

When I first saw the topic title I was worried that something had happened to him...

He's the 'sound' of my childhood and I shall miss him on televised dog stuff.  In latter years he always came with a green background and a soundtrack of barking dogs - nothing better... ((((gives a sorrowful sigh!))))

Sorry about that Dogs a babe,

He is like a favourite Uncle to a whole generation isn't he ?

I am the Basset breeder who took part in the Sky News programme. I was interviewed for 10 minutes - but you can see how much of that they used.
To put the record straight - the pack Basset Hounds have beagle/harrier blood in them to make them run faster. If you look at their front construction you would weep - knuckling over, turning feet - just the right recipe for arthritis in old age - especially as they expect them to work all day. Perhaps someone ought to tell Ms Jeffers that hunting is now illegal.
We have 15 hounds and our vet bills are very small - for the obvious reason that we rarely go there! They are exercised every day, they put their noses to the ground as any true Basset does, follow a good scent and are conveniently deaf!
The bitch that was compared to the hunt 'Basset' is not a big girl but in no way is she overdone - she is beautifully sound all through, moves truly and has no health problems - and her tummy is well off the ground!. We are proud of her. We do not like exaggerated Bassets and will not breed them.
The one bitch that was shown with an undercarriage has had 2 litters and now has a phantom pregnancy - so she can be forgiven for being a bit maternal at the moment. You are quite welcome to look at our website www.barrenger.co.uk
All the eight Basset Hound clubs are concerned for the health of the breed and a health committee is in place. No sensible breeder wants to breed unhealthy dogs - where is the sense in that. Just because we have a breed that looks a bit different and has short legs does not make it unhealthy. Due to the popularity of the Basset Hound we are also plagued with Puppy Farmers, Commercial breeders, back street breeders etc. In the Breed Record Supplements for 2008 two thirds of the Basset Hounds registered were bred from unknown stock or owners - these people do not belong to Breed Clubs so do not follow a Code of Ethics so there is no way we can influence them. They are the ones who advertise their puppies as full of wrinkles and long ears - not us!
Please do not damm our lovely breed without knowing the facts.

> Just because we have a breed that looks a bit different and has short legs does not make it unhealthy.

As the past owner of a Dandie Dinmont I would agree with that but I also have eyes in my head and those working Bassets (I don't think anyone said they still hunted as a pack) looked good to me.  If new blood had been infused at some point they now looked remarkably uniform so it would appear to have been well assimilated. 
I do not say what I do based simply on what we saw of your dogs.  I am not so daft as to not understand what journalists do and I could see they used a shot of a dog of very unsound movement that was obviously quite elderly but I also felt sad to note the marked difference between the Basset Hound in the Group ring yesterday compared to its continental relatives.  It did not compare favourably at all in my opinion.  You might say what does my opinion, outside the breed, count for but there are a tiny minority of breeds that threaten the whole world of dog showing so I feel it must concern all those that care about pedigree dogs.

> All the eight Basset Hound clubs are concerned for the health of the breed and a health committee is in place.

This is good and hopefully with the guidance that the KC has out in place with its changes to standards and breed codes a brighter future beckons.

Hi pod

I think most here would agree that many breeds have been damned without the full facts being known and also that carefully edited interviews and footage can and indeed has put breeds and their breeders in a poor light.

Thanks for the added info on the pack hounds re the introduction of other breeds - doubtless this has happened much in the past with several breeds where the lines are predominantly working stock and so not necessarily as 'pure'.  I know that some 'working' lines of one of the varieties of my own breed often have other breeds added in for greater size/strength/gameness of character whereas UK dogs of that variety bred from show lines have consistantly proven themselves to be excellent workers while maintaining correct type and temperament and are very much 'dual purpose'

Can I ask you, since it seems to me that Bassets have such loose lower eyelids, is it correct for them to be that way or is that an exaggeration of the allowed wrinkle being taken to extremes over the years?

regards, Teri

Oh no I find him a bit leery now after reading about his Blue Peter shenanigins.

Hi Teri
Our standard calls for a lozenge eye. There should be a small amount of haw showing but as it made clear throughout our standard - not excessive! This shape does not affect the eye. We personally do not have entropion/ectropion. Our 12 year old now has poor sight due to recently diagnosed 'dry eye' but this is the first time we have encountered this.

The split between pure bred Bassets and the show Basset was as long ago as 1911 when the Masters of Basset Hounds Association was formed. In the mid thirties the pack hounds were crossed with other hounds 'to keep the breed alive as it was in danger of becoming extinct'  These pack 'Bassets' are known as English Bassets and have been outcrossed with other breeds to produce a longer legged,faster hunting hound - they are not Basset Hounds. The Albany were a pure bred Basset Hound pack that hunted. This was very good as it kept the hunting side of the breed in touch with the show side and pet Basset Hounds were encouraged to hunt and successful ones were issued with Hunt Certificates. It was a sad day when the Basset Hound Club sold the Albany Basset pack to Ms Jeffers & Mr Ward for £1 as the pack was no longer pure bred Basset but crossed with 'English Bassets'' The whole point of the BHC pack was that it was pure bred and this helped breeders keep in touch with the Basset's true nature. It has now gone and some clubs have started to experiment with tracking days.

> There should be a small amount of haw showing but as it made clear throughout our standard - not excessive!

In January of this year the statement 'Red of lower lid appears, though not excessively' was removed from the standard regarding eyes.

Hi pod,

thanks for taking the time to explain :)

regards, Teri 

Did ya know he also has Newfies?? Smart man!!!

I couldn't even believe that!!! How shocking! ;-)

> Did ya know he also has Newfies?? Smart man!!!

Not anymore he hasn't they have all gone to The Bridge-He just has his Pekingese now & they are quite elderly

:-o MM do you know EVERYTHING in the whole World??!! ;-) lol

Ok, well at least he was decent enough to buy a nice doggie! :-)

LOLOLOL He mentioned it on the Crufts Live TV ROFLMAO !!!