Ok i dont want to make a mountain out of a molehill!!!

My family have recently brought in to our home a Miniature Schnauzer puppy who is approx 10 weeks old.  My girl chews everything in site! Which i can deal with, i have researched the breed and know livelyness and stubborness are traits of this breed LOL. I am trying the NILIF approach and it is working to some extent, it is very early days.  We all have opened our hearts to our puppy and adore her very very much.  She mouths us regular and i appreciate pup's have sharp teeth and can hurt, i can also deal with!! I know all puppys mouth and i fully accept this and will continue to train her that it is not acceptable.  I do not show her any aggression, nor would I.  So now i come to the issue,  She has only been at home with me for approx 6 days so i know this is a worryin time for her an stressfull for us all.  The first few days where great, except for the lack of sleep tee hee... Yawn yawn!  But over the last couple of days if i move her from something she is doing e.g Chewing the mat and i move her away and give her one of her chew toys then she has started growling at me and trying to bite my hands as i move her... Please note, this is not playful but definate aggression. 

I'm at a loss??? I bought her from a breeder and was advised she had come in to contact with children but not brought up with children.  I was advised that she was socialized....  Im not saying she hasn't been socialized, she could have been and could be very head strong. I am totally dazed and perplexed LOL :-)

I have two other playfull dogs and they like to play with the puppy and they all get on well.... No nastyness at all, but they do play fight all the time.  My question is calling all experts... Is my other dogs causing this? Possibly causing this through playing? Is it aggression??? Can it be cured??? Will it be a problem if she was never socialized???

Please note I adore this pup and do not wish to give her up, but i have children... What should i do???

We firmly believe a dog is for life!!

are you absolutely certain the behaviour is aggressive? of perhaps she just trys to play differently than the dogs you've had before? its difficult for anyone online to say if it is aggression or not as we can't see it but it strikes me as unlikely at that age.

you might find your other dogs are your best helpers in this rather than causing the problem, if she trys it with them you can be sure she'll be taught some manners. this may sound nasty (a loud growl or a bark etc) but usually it its perfectly natural and often very benefitial.

search for 'the bite stops here' on the site, it should help.

> its difficult for anyone online to say if it is aggression or not as we can't see it but it strikes me as unlikely at that age.
>

My thoughts exactly.  Extremely unlikely to be genuine aggression at this age. 

She sounds as if she is reacting as if you were a litter mate. She needs to learn her boundaries, ie no biting or growling at you. My first port of call would be the breeder, or the breed club for help if you don't get advice from your breeder. They are best suited to give information about your breed traits.

If you take a dummy away from a human baby it can become agitated and scream/cry out.  If you took a favourite toy from a human toddler it would possibly scream  and go red in the face, stamping feet in rage - aka a tantrum

Pups have even fewer ranges than babies and toddlers through which to show distress or displeasure - so they growl and snap because that's dog language for 'get lost, I like this, it's mine' :) 

At the moment your very baby puppy knows no other language nor has communication skills other than those it's learned in the nest from it's dam and siblings.  Those communication skills will certainly have included much growling, biting, snapping etc - because if left to fend for themselves this repertoire would be essential for survival.

Read this ARTICLE on how to deal with inappropriate mouthing and biting.  You'll find it very useful in the next few weeks and months to help form the correct association between teeth and skin :)

Distract from over zealous play, make swaps with things of higher value if you wish to take something from your pup, ignore the few backward steps that may come about and lavishly praise desired behaviour :)  You have a very normal puppy - please don't feel alone as we all go through these things

HTH, Teri

She sounds like a normal healthy puppy, into mischief and everything.  i.e. if she is chewing the mat, call on her and give her one of her toys, don't move her, make the toy more interesting than the mat. Mine did this at 10 wks old, does not do it now she is 16 wks has learnt a lot since then.  She will "try it on" with you until she finds out that this behaviour is unacceptable.

If you heard my 8mth old and the 16wk old playing, you would think they were going to attack each other the noise they make, very, very vocal, growling etc, but they are not being aggressive with each other they are playing.  its even worse when the older dogs join it, can even hear the t.v. over the noise they make LOL !!!

Are you going to take her to training classes at all, this always help puppies socialise.

This not aggression, she is simply being well an 10 week old puppy, exploring the world with her mouth & teeth as dogs do.

When she growls when you try to stop her doing something she is enjoying, the growling isn't aggression, it's defensive-meaning no don't want to in human terms. Growling is always a warning & not a threat, it comes before a nip or bite. Instead of removing her from the mat etc physically, you should be luring her away with something more interesting so she learns that to come to you & stop what she is doing is highly rewarding.

Play fighting is quite normal & puppies always have a huge amount of licence from older dogs, if they step ove the mark, the older dog is more likely to grump(& not growl)& walk away. Well the older dogs decide that the puppy licence is to end they will firmly correct her.

My Cavaliers sound like they are killing each other, but are only playing & the same goes for my Border Collies & in the past my GSDs & Beardies

Ah bless ain't puppies funny...she is just doing this little growl to stop you from taking her play things away, she is only doing what is natural when I play tug of war with my bull terrier he growls but he is playing not being aggressive.

Just ignore this growling baby she will soon realise it does not faze you in to letting her get her own way. I expect with her litter mates it worked the odd growl of saying Get off its mine. :-) 

Agree with much of what has been posted already, I'd also suggest for your own peace of mind to enrol her into good puppy classes straight away - but they must be good classes, I can't underline that enough :)

Examples of what to expect are here:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/choosing_dog_trainer_uk.asp

http://www.puppyschool.co.uk/advice_information/choose_good_training.html

You do have to book early though as good ones are often booked up well ahead :)

I tend to not move pups but to distract them away - and also start up good training games like swapping a lower value item for a high value one and then also giving back the lower one...but you should hopefully learn some of this at puppy training :) I find this builds up a lot of trust. My dog will bring me valued items to my hand - even, once, a horrible sharp bone she'd found; she'sbeen taught to retrieve to me/give to me things for reward.

Breeders can offer great advice but unfortunately some are still in the dark ages where behaviour is concerned ... so if you do ask yours, be a bit picky as to what they advise!

Good luck

Lindsay
x

Thank you so much, the rewarding her for coming to me sounds a great idea and i will put this in to place immediately!!! It just makes perfect sense, she should be coming to me not vice versa.  My other dog is a tiny Chihuahua, so as you can imagine my Mini Schnauzer is already bigger than her, but my Chi is so lively and incessant with play fighting! So im not sure if it got to rough she would be able to teach or put my pup in her place LOL.

My breeder advised no puppy classes but just to ensure she is socialised regular with children and other dogs.  When her vaccinations are done i am going to walk her to my sons school everyday and back again, twice per day for her exercise and a walk in the local park to meet other dogs in the afternoon... Well not all at once as i appreciate she needs to grow a little first as too much exercise can be as detramental as not enough at an early age. :-). So should i take her to puppy classes?

I am so glad i do not have to worry too much about Heidi (Schnauzers name) and Noo (chi name) playing and it is natural, as i have anther Mini Schnauzer coming next week :-) puppy 8 weeks, i thought it would be a good idea to bring them up together.

Once again thank you so much, any more advise is still greatly appreciated.

My breeder advised no puppy classes but just to ensure she is socialised regular with children and other dogs.

That's interesting, did she give a reason as to why? :)

It may be she's heard of some locally which are not well run. Basically the pups should not be allowed to run around chaotically but should be under control and say, only 2 or 3 let off to socialise at the same time. Some let pups all chase around with no control and larger pups may bully smaller ones etc, but these are not good pup classes.

The thing about puppy classes is that they are great for meeting other owners "in the same boat" and getting good puppy advice on the spot where the trainer can see the problems :) Lots of owners do get so worried about things like puppy mouthing (I know 'cos I was one of them, would my puppy ever stop!! I'd had 2 of the same breed before and they'd not been anything like her LOL).

Lindsay
xx

I am trying the NILIF approach and it is working to some extent, it is very early days.

Sorry me again! Just remembered this from your first post. NILIF varies greatly from very "strong" programmes based around so called "dominance" (which I would not recommend at all) to what is basically just manners. It is possible to have relationship problems with some varieties because they don't really allow dog and owner to respond much to each other or for the dog to ask for anything. At their worst they can cause dogs to act depressed.

What I tend to do and what I recommend to clients, is to simply ask a dog to sit for having the lead on, to teach a "that's enough, leave me alone for a bit" command and to just instil basic good manners (via training). And to reward with praise or food reward when the dog is calm and quiet - ie teaching what we do want :)

I also make sure training is always enjoyable, really it's a game!

Hth!

Lindsay
x

> When her vaccinations are done i am going to walk her to my sons school everyday and back again, twice per day for her exercise and a walk in the local park to meet other dogs in the afternoon...

when ours were small we carried them outside before their vaccinations, If I were you (and she is not too heavy) i would be doing this now when picking up your sons from school. We did it with a Bernese and a Gordon Setter around our local town centre in the evenings (and boy was that hard work :-D ) but they are both well socialised as a result.

As for puppy classes - if there are some in your area I don't think it would hurt to go.

Hi Lindsey, a big thank you!  NILIF well all i know is Nothing in life is free LOL, my approach is reward good behavious, lots of tickles; and Bad behaviour... well i just distract her and give praise when she does as asked.  As in mouthing i am in the process of saying AH! quite authoritively (which is hard when she so cute LOL) and i am praising her loads if she licks my fingers... So far so good.  Now all i need is her to stop chewing everything else LOL but it is early days and after looking at this and the comments, you have all made me feel so much more positive about her and i now know i can do this... :-).

Her aggression and i am afraid it was aggression and aimed at me :-( well she needs to realise i am not one of her litter mates and it may have worked with her siblings but not with me and over time i am sure we will get there.  I was extremely worried as a few years ago i bought a similar breed of dog and was advised that the puppy was socialised, up on getting her home i soon realised that the pup had had no socialisation at all.... The next 5 days where a living hell!!! Not only did she bark at everyone who came near, shy in a corner and growl and bite me everytime i went within 2 foot of her... she really was out of control and i was very angry at the Breeders!!! I should have known something was wrong, but pups are so different when they are in there territory, when you bring them home its different.  

So this time i was so careful, meeting a reputable breeder, meeting them in there home, meeting the puppy more than once, meeting parents etc etc..  But i just was worried it was going to happen again.  Anyhow so far this morning NO growls and better behaved. 

I love this pup already, so there is one thing for sure.... I will give it my all to change her into a well socialized, fun, happy bundle of mischief LOL

As for what you said before about some training programms...well i searched the internet on such programmes... and i was appalled at some of the methods!

Anyhow fingers crossed

> Her aggression and i am afraid it was aggression and aimed at me :-( well she needs to realise i am not one of her litter mates and it may have worked with her siblings but not with me and over time i am sure we will get there

Young puppies do not show true aggression, they show what I term a" lack of manners"& they lack the manners because they are young, not because they are aggressive. As someone else has already written, if you were a young child-under 2 & an adult simply took something from you, you(as all young children would)would react by crying, screaming, throwing a tantrum etc. Did/do your children share their toys willingly from day one ? I would be surprised if they did, they have to learn, puppies like children are not born with manners or learnt behaviours.

Sounds like you are doing the right things now. Bear in mind when you start walking your puppy that a rough guideline for walks in 5 minutes per month in age at a time. As your puppy is quite small(when compared to a Border collie or GSD for example)you can still carry her to increase the length of the"walks"

You need to channel her chewing into good things for her to chew-recreational bones, chew toys, tuggies etc & if you find her chewing something she shouldn't(like a shoe etc)blame yourself for leaving it where she can reach it & call her to you with a treat if she leaves what she is chewing

Hi chip
Without wishing to get into a big debate, something you may consider is phoning your vet and asking whether there are any current significant outbreaks of any of the diseases that we routinely vaccinate against in your area?  If the answer is no, then as she will already have a level of immunity via the dam's colostrum, IMO it is worth the very small risk and to get the pup out and about ASAP. 

I do canine socialisation only with friend's dogs which I know are vaccinated, but otherwise would take a pup to the school/shopping precint/railway station/local pub etc etc.
This is a personal choice, a lot of people won't agree, but as there is only a small window of opportunity to cram all these new life experiences into the classical conditioning period, I think it is worth the risk.

Moonmaiden.... Thank you for the comment its a "lack of manners".  You are so right LOL.  Sometimes you just dont expect your beautiful bundle of fluff, when you pick her up to growl and then try to bite your arm, but now i realise why she did it... She was far to involved in what she was doing and was not impressed at being moved!  Plus she did this behaviour 3 times in one day so it is quite scary.  I have 3 children, 13, 10 and 6 whom all love her, i wouldn't want one of them playing with her and her doing the said same thing to them... It would shock them and upset them, this was my biggest concern.  At the moment she is 8 weeks old, small and cute... I need advise on what to do as i do not wish this behaviour to continue.  What happens if she continues? I want to make sure i am fully prepared and learn from my peers on here on how to deal with this matter to ensure a happy life for my family and my beautiful pup and to make sure the growling/nipping/biting stops. 

Thank you for the tips on walking i will definately bear this is mind.

Chew toys, she has lots.... she still prefares my patio venetion blinds :-0 :-) LOL.  I am sure given 3 months i will laugh at this thread and realise how silly i am being... Many thanks

Gunner i had a heart attack nearly just taking her to the vets for her first innoculation LOL.  Everyone in the surgery wanted to coo over her, rightly so, but i felt like shouting at them " DONT EVEN BREATHE ON HER!!!" Lol

I know over protective but.... I'm worse wth my kids ha ha x

> as i have anther Mini Schnauzer coming next week :-) puppy 8 weeks, i thought it would be a good idea to bring them up together.

The puppy you are having difficulty with is 10 weeks and you have another puppy coming next week; so there will be 3 week age gap between them?

You are seeing classic sibling behaviour at the moment as as Heidi learns the difference between humans and puppies.  Whatever improvements you see in the next few days you may see some regression when the new puppy arrives.

I wouldn't have two puppies so close in age but there have been plenty of threads on this recently so do have a read for some good advice, including the need to train each one separately.  I would imagine training classes will be a must for you and it's unlikely a trainer will suggest having both pups in the same class.  Is your new puppy coming from a different breeder?  What does he/she say about classes and having two pups together?

Do take the time to make sure you are doing the right thing here.  Far be it from me to tell you it's a mistake but please be very sure you know what you are taking on.  If you are already having some difficulties then a new puppy won't halve the problem it will double it.  You will need to be extra careful with your Chihuahua as she is going to feel under pressure with two very young puppies in the house.  The puppies will bond and whilst a terrible twosome might sound like fun it's going to be very hard work and will require a big time commitment from you to make it work.  Good luck :)

>> as i have anther Mini Schnauzer coming next week :-) puppy 8 weeks, i thought it would be a good idea to bring them up together.
> The puppy you are having difficulty with is 10 weeks and you have another puppy coming next week; so there will be 3 week age gap between them?

I missed this  ! You are getting two puppies together are they both bitches ? :-O

as i have anther Mini Schnauzer coming next week  puppy 8 weeks, i thought it would be a good idea to bring them up together

Gulp!  Well spotted dogs a babe!  Is it too early to reach for something.....errrr........shall we say, fortifying??

Chip - I don't know your personal circumstances, but have you really carefully thought this through? You have children - they are more than time consuming enough for a lot of people! :-) You have a chi and one young pup already and now are planning to add another?  You do realise the time that two young pups will take don't you?  You will need to socialize them seperately, train them seperately and walk them seperately for months to come.  You may well also have to consider keeping them apart for periods of time when in the house so that they bond more with you than each other.  You will probably have to revert to doing everything 100% seperately again when they hit adolescence and start pushing boundaries, and then with two bitches of similar age at puberty...............mmmmmmmmmmm............the fur could start to fly!

If you have thought all this through and have the time and the energy and contingency plans for coping - especially if the two bitches start to fight as teenagers - I sincerely wish you all the best.  It has been done successfully, and I take my hat off to those that have done it, but sure isn't for the faint hearted or the inexperienced I would suggest.

If any of the above is new food for thought for you, I would suggest doing a bit more research and re-assessing.  Is the breeder of the second pup aware of the existence of the first one?

PS  OK....just reread all your posts more carefully and see that it isn't necessarily a second bitch pup that you're getting.  However, all of the above will still apply apart from the fighting.

Chip - I don't know your personal circumstances, but have you really carefully thought this through? You have children - they are more than time consuming enough for a lot of people!

Nope!!! aaaaggghhhhh Silly me.  I have 2 boys 10 an 13 who are pretty great, well trained should we say.. LOL the 6 yr old is my step son and we have him every other weekend, slightly trained ha ha .  One pup is for my 10 year old he wishes to start Agility Training her, well we where going to train them both.  We all adore the outside world and wanted dogs who where hardy and have the energy.  We recently moved and have always loved the breed Mini Schnauzer and always thought of two.  You cannot walk a Chihuahua... well not 15 miles anyhow. You are correct i wasn't aware that two girls would fight!!! I grew up and in my family we always had lots of dogs and the odd gripe between them, but full scale fights, well never. So you see i wouldn't have thought they would!!! So i am now shocked!! All our dogs slept together, ate together and played together, they where walked together and never apart.

I dont work, so time and commitment is there 100%.

I have put a large deposit on the pup and again we are committed to her. 

You have given me food for thought and we will all sit down tonight and discuss the matter fully. 

Can i just ask why would i have to train them, bring them up separately, sleep them separately, train etc.  I appreciate the need to be people dogs but can this not be done together? You are right a lot more research will need to be done...

Dogs a babe... Could you please advise me of the threads you suggested, as i have looked and cannot find them... Many thanks

>Can i just ask why would i have to train them, bring them up separately, sleep them separately, train etc.  I appreciate the need to be people dogs but can this not be done together?

Puppies will naturally be more inclined to bond with their own species (which uses the same vocal and body languages) than an alien species (us!). A solo pup has no option - they badly need company and anything (human, cat etc) is better than nothing. But if there's another dog available, especially another pup that reminds them of the siblings they've been separated from, that puppy will be of paramount importance.

So each puppy needs to be treated like a solo puppy as well as one of a pair. They each need separate training (if they're together all the time how will you know which one made the puddle?), separate walks, separate playtime with their owners as well as some time each other. Very respected behaviourists say that during this formative time (until about a year old) they need to spend 15 minutes alone with their owner for every 5 minutes they spend with each other.

One puppy is a fulltime job - two is more than twice as much work! Far better to get one puppy now (as you have), bond with it and train it to the standard you want and then get a companion that you can also give the concentration it deserves.

[url=]One puppy is a fulltime job - two is more than twice as much work! [/url]

Just like human children........ass yourself how hard it would be if you had twins...  you would not have been able to clump them together in respect of bringing them up.. they would need individual time with you the parent..

Same goes for the pups.. they will need individual time  for you to imprint your regime on them.

Regardless of them being the same sex, and the problems you may encounter later on with "hormonal " changes...  you will have two babies to take care of , bring up, socialise , you can not do it together.. they need to have individual times.

Just for instance , if your existing pup takes up 4 hrs of your day, in training, feeding socialising, play.. you are going to need 8 hrs to deal with two pups.

Something else to consider.... did your second pups breeder know you already had a 10 week old pup at home...??? this would be interesting to find out.

Because I think, I can safely say... you would not find a breeder on here , who would send home one of their pups with someone who already has a puppy a couple of weeks older in their home

Thiking of getting a Boxer/Pug - Any advice?  poster- littlemissdrago  date - 07.01.09 10:17 GMT .............on page 9 - General
can't do a link but this was a recent post that covered the subject, OP started another thread later to say she had got just one pup and could not imagine how she would have managed 2.
Chris

No i didn't tell her.... I honestly didn't think it an issue.... But you have seriously given me food for thought. 

I have already talked to my partner and advised all your concerns to him.  We have had a lengthy discussion and we are going to talk some more... We have the time to train them separately this is not an issue with us, nor is giving them enough of our time separately.... As i said before i was brought up around dogs and my family never had a problem, but looking back they were all aquired at different times and ages.  However my partner had 3 patterdale's and 2 borders similar ages, all together and no problems either, so its one of those sitiuations. 

I am not discounting what you say a friend had 2 Cocker Spaniels same age, feamle and on more than one occasion fought and it would have been to the death if she had not intervened.  So i can see what you are saying and agree. 

I never leave my dogs alone for a minute!!! and are crated separately!!! I go to the toilet and i am never alone, nor have i ever been lol.  Before dogs it was cats etc etc. Oh and yes kids!!!

I promise you one thing. I will speak to the breeder before i make any other decisions and will follow her advise to the letter, she has been a great help.

Thank you for your comments, constructive and honest, i expected nothing else!

> Dogs a babe... Could you please advise me of the threads you suggested, as i have looked and cannot find them... Many thanks

It's a topic that has come up under different titles I think.  I've tried to find as many as I can

Advice on getting a second dog
Introducing 4 month old pup to an 8 week old
Trying To House Train My Puppy
Thiking of getting a Boxer/Pug - Any advice?
Inbreeding in Cocker Spaniels?

A lot of questions, like yours, only come up in conversation when someone is having problems.  I know it would be a tough decision to make but it would be great to know that you had all the info before you made the final decision.  Do check with your breeder too - many of them on here, and others I know, wouldn't contemplate placing a puppy with another of such a similar age.  You may have to read through a few of these posts to get to the second puppy bits.  If I could, I'd find you all the 'thanks for the advice - I'm glad I didn't get two puppies'  but these are often more deeply buried than the rest as it's usually only 1 person saying thank you to each 12 people saying DONT DO IT !! 

Chip,

Maybe you could speak to the breeder of the pup you have not yet got.
Tell them you already have a young puppy and you have been advised it might not be the bestest of ideas to have two bitches so close together.
Explain why you were going to have two puppies but have now understood it is not as simple as you thought.
Especially with a breed you have chosen (lively and quite bolshy), I would think you might get problems when the puppies grow up and became teenagers.

Maybe you could suggest leaving the deposit with them and getting a puppy from a litter they have at later date, after you have had time to train the puppy you already have and there would be larger age cap between the two.
If they are a caring knowledgeagle breeder they will understand what you are talking about and I would imagine would be happier you not getting a pup from them now but at later date.
Obviously you will need to word yourself carefully as you will be "turning down" a puppy from them meaning they will need to find a another home for it.
But I would imagine a good breeder will have a waiting list and will be happier you have realised and are trying to correct your mistake before it has happened!

Chip,

I've just seen your remark "I will speak to the breeder before i make any other decisions and will follow her advise to the letter, she has been a great help.".

I do hope you don't mean the breeder of your new ( yet to arrive) puppy. I'm not convinced that anyone who will sell you another puppy, just a few weeks older than your present puppy and takes a 'large deposit' in these circumstances, would be the right person to ask.

The other breeder who has advised not enrolling your pup at training classes, despite the fact you want to do agility with her, may not be a great choice of mentor either.
I really think you should step back and really look carefully at this situation...to an educated onlooker, it doesn't look ideal.
Why not just concentrate on ironing out your existing puppy problems.

Hi Toolz
It would appear from reading the various posts above that Chip hasn't mentioned the existing pup to the breeder of the second (yet to arrive) pup.........so, they may well baulk in horror.

Hi Chip.......tell us a bit about thie breeder of 'pup number 2' would you please?  Are they KCAB?  How many litters have they bred in the last few years?  How many dogs do they own? Are the parents both health tested?  Do they own both the parents?  How old are the parents? Have you met them?  Probably a thousand other questions as well that others will be able to think of too!

Lol.... No i contacted the breeder of the girl i already have and asked her advise.  We had a lengthy discussion and i told about the other pup.  We discussed the breed and she thought it best if i do not get the other pup, not for temperament problems, but because she feels we need to bond fully with the pup before we introduce another.  I have read all your posts and i thank you for your help.  We have contacted the KC Accredited breeder of the second pup, who yes has mum an dad who i have met.  All pups have been health screened and eye tested, fully vaccinated and offered with a lifetime of support and guidance. I advised her of the other pup and our situation, apologized most profusely and told her what a complete idiot i am...

I then cried!!! because i am so upset!!! I wanted both and i realise i caused this by not thinking properly about the situation.  However i have done eventually the right thing by my puppy.  I have listened and learned so thank you very much. 

well done you chip, its hard because i'm sure you really want them both but honestly you'll enjoy them both so very much more for waiting.

For what it's worth I think you've done exactly the right thing, for you, your family, and for both the pups ... and the pup you'll get in the future when the time is right! My hat's off to you for letting your head be in charge - your heart will be relieved in the end. :-)

Congratulations on taking on this advice.

No doubt you feel upset  about not getting your second pup, but just fast forward to the future when you pups could not give two hoots about you and they are tearing round the field not listening to you and causing havoc. Then it would be like this in your home, physically and mentally draining. Also enjoy your pup at these precious weeks you will never get them back, and puppy classes yes i cannot recommend them enough. Main reason for me is to show off my new puppy, but its great for socialisation and making friends. Especially if you want to start agility. Good Luck and dont hesitate to ask champdoggers for advice.

Louise

Hi, had a quick read of what you say initally but getting ready for Crufts do not have time to read everybody advice.  I had a similar problem and found part of it was due to the high protein diet, changed from 30% to 23% made considerable difference also use a food with no colouring and make sure it has natural perserative. Also always kept a collar on so if any growing was able to get hold of the collar enabling you to move the puppy if need be when doing this you need to be firm, also I agree offer a toy in place.  You could also spray what is being chewed with strong perfume or my friend uses olbas oil. When I used to breed dogs for 30 years we did not use complete food as there was bone meal in those days for helping to grow good bone and I never had problems like people have todays and I often wonder if a lot of it is down to diet.  I went to hell and back with my puppy and often in tears thinking what have I done wrong but he has turned out a lovely lad to live with. He loves all other dogs, let my sons male dog in his home and loves children and other people. So keep going it works in the end

Chip, it is good news that you have postponed the purchase of a new pup.

Now to the one you already have: Agility may look fun ( and it is), it may look free and easy and totally spontaneous  but it is founded on obedience. You will notice that the dogs are off lead.

Puppy classes, and in particular the KC foundation course, is the ideal  place to integrate your puppy into the doggy community, learn good manners and teach you how to avoid many puppy problems.

Avoiding organised classes and going it alone will be a big mistake IMO.

Hi Chip
I'm really sorry about your upset and I hope that you are able to explain to your children the reasons behind the U-turn.  There may be a few tears now, but in all likelihood if you had gone ahead with pup no.2 there would have been many more in the future.  I am sooo glad that you are giving your current pup the opportunity to become a well-rounded, mature, obedient individual before adding a new companion to the family.

BTW.....re agility.  Have you looked into the minimum age for the dogs to train and compete?  I don't do agility myself, but I know of two local clubs that won't accept dogs for training until they are 12 months old in the one case and 18 months in the other.  I think there may be a minimum age of 2 years for competing????  I'm sure someone else will be able to advise you or have a look at agility.net.  The reason for a minimum age is not to put strain and stress by jumping on young developing bones.
However, there is plenty of obedience and directional cues that you can teach in the meantime as well as familiarising your pup with objects like the tunnel and walking over poles on the ground.

Hope your pup brings you a lot of pleasure.

> However, there is plenty of obedience and directional cues that you can teach in the meantime as well as familiarising your pup with objects like the tunnel and walking over poles on the ground.
>

I think if you join an agility club that is just what they do with a puppy so there is no need to put off joining.  I am sure that is the case with my local club although it is many years since we did it so worth enquiring.

Just as a matter of interest, i have looked again at all the posts and noticed a number of you agree that 2 females together would possibly fight when they reach teenage or when they reach maturity and jostle for pack leader.... but wouldn't this still happen if there was 12 mnths, 2 years, 3 years etc... I mean a 2 yr old and 4 yr old would then still not fight? you have me quite worried now by your comments.  How many of you have more than one female, who have answered my questions and answer me honestly... Do they fight?

Your thought are appreciated, as i do not wish to make this mistake later on.

You are quite right they can but with a stronger distinction between ages it tends to be a lot less serious with much more chance of diffusion.
I have had two bitches fight but they were about 5 years apart and my efforts, which included spaying the entire one plus other interventions regarding the attention she got, did sort things.

Because of several friends who have kept multiple bitches (and most have had experience of serious issues with those closest in age), I have ensured my girls are always at least 4 years apart in age (all of the same breed).  In around 20 years I've never had any problems at all but put that down to having minimised the chances of same through strictly observing the optimum age gaps.

There's a saying which holds very true when you have same s@x problems.  Dogs fight for breeding rights, bitches for breathing rights!

Two males not getting along tend to have a spat which is all mouth and trousers - with bitches it can be a blood bath if there are pecking order issues :(

How many of you have more than one female, who have answered my questions and answer me honestly... Do they fight?

I currently have a 5.25year old entire male and a 2.5 year old bitch.  The next dog that I add will be a male, purely to avoid the problems that I have seen others around me experiencing.  One example is a friend who does rescue for one of the rarer spaniel breeds;  a while back she had a bitch that she had actually purchased and had since being an 8 week old pup and then she had a 'rescue' that came direct from the breeder at the age of 12 months, having been run on.  There was about 2 years between the two bitches and whilst they were okay initially when the younger bitch got to about 2 years of age, the fighting started.  They were actually always okay when outside on a walk as the younger bitch was quite insecure in the big wide world, but indoors they were a nightmare and continued to be for 2 years until the older bitch was PTS through illness.  This meant keeping them seperate, playing 'musical dogs' when moving from one area to another in the house - easier said than done in some properties!  Supervising constantly if they were allowed together and 'managing' all situations to ensure that there was no escalation.  It wasn't exactly relaxing and I think took a lot of the fun out of dog ownership......

Hi as others have said 2 bitches or 2 males for that matter can and do have serious fights over leadership and yes even when there is a big age gap between them. It is however much more serious when they are both in the same age band. I have had serious fights between bitches in the past and its scarey how quickly they can set about each other.They can be best friends one second and sworn enemies the next! Males can be just as bad(I dont want to be sexist ha ha) I have 2 males of the same age that I never allow near each other as they hate each other. Oh the joys of owning multiple dogs!!

What an absolute nightmare lol... (although i realise it is not a laughing matter).

Just as a matter of interest though, when i consulted with both breeders of puppies last night as i promised i would.  Pup 1 (which i have got already) breeder said it was better to wait approx 6 mnth before introducing another girl, not because she felt there would be a problem but because of bonding and behavior for the new pup, but basically it was up to me, they told me she would not fight and she had been bred for her temperament.  Pup 2 (which was the one i had coming) breeder stated it would not be a problem.... So there you have it... 2 KCAB advising the same about their breed. 

I feel sick inside with all this stress.

Also i already have a dog 12 mnth old, so this is my concern, Noo as i have said above is a Chihuahua, i dont think they will fight... LOL pecking order already established.  Noo and heidi(schnauzer) already inseperable.  Will this still amke her a dog dog or will she turn out a people dog??? they sleep apart but palying etc etc feeding together...

By eck getting dogs is very difficult

> when they reach teenage or when they reach maturity and jostle for pack leader.... but wouldn't this still happen if there was 12 mnths, 2 years, 3 years etc... I mean a 2 yr old and 4 yr old would then still not fight? you have me quite worried now by your comments.  How many of you have more than one female, who have answered my questions and answer me honestly... Do they fight?
>

there is sometimes a tiny bit of jossling for position as they get to that age but it can be compared to a teenage daughter getting stroppy for a while- except is usually easier to deal with and happens for a far shorter time :) one or other normally backs off quickly. its very rarely any kind of problem. my parents current girls Kismet (6) and Keeper (2)-mother and daughter- get on great, there were a couple of very small tussels (mainly a bark and stare down, once or twice a little growl) when Keeper was in the teen phase (the kevins) but she was swifty put in her place by Kizzy and both decided they were happy enough just bossing Tio (my boy) around :) they get on so well Kizzy still lets Keeper suckle! obviously she gets no milk but seems to do it for comfort, very sweet :)

similarly initially Kizzy did not like my sisters whippet bitch much (Bindi is up there quite often). Kiz is a very quiet and peaceful girl but she can assert herself with a look, shes a proper queen :) bindi decided quickly not to mess and they have been grand ever since.

if your concerned about that though why not consider a dog? its unusual to have problems between a dog and a bitch unless one or other has some behavioural issues. bear in mind though that other factors become an issue then such as preventing pregnancy.

> Also i already have a dog 12 mnth old, so this is my concern, Noo as i have said above is a Chihuahua, i dont think they will fight... LOL pecking order already established.  Noo and heidi(schnauzer) already inseperable.  Will this still amke her a dog dog or will she turn out a people dog??? they sleep apart but palying etc etc feeding together...
>
> By eck getting dogs is very difficult

not if you put the work in :) its getting a balance- sufficiently doggy to avoid problems but plenty people oriented to

> they told me she would not fight and she had been bred for her temperament

Breeding for temperament generally means producing a companion animal which will be kind, biddable and interact with humans (and to some extent dogs) well.

It doesn't mean that all it's natural instincts have been eradicated and the dog will be a robot. Dogs are still full of natural instincs and these are most readily seen when they interact with other dogs.

> I feel sick inside with all this stress.
>

Why?  No one's forcing you to have pet dogs, they are meant to be a great source of joy. It seems pretty clear that you seem to have bitten off more than you can chew.

Forget the other dog...You do realise that what you've got is more than enough and review the situation someway down the line.

May I ask, is there any other reason why you want so many nice young bitches? Are you planning to start breeding dogs as a 'hobby'?

Oh and by the way.... the ABS is not generally accepted as the 'gold standard' of dog breeders...well not yet at least...just ask the many posters on this forum!

I advise my puppy owners to wait till the puppy has grown up a bit (usually 18+ months) before getting a second pup. I personally will not sell if there is already a pup in residence as apart from anything else if you introduce a new pup too soon your first pup who has just started to grow up turns back into a raving lunatic again! lol

May I ask, is there any other reason why you want so many nice young bitches? Are you planning to start breeding dogs as a 'hobby'?

My KC papers are endorsed!!! Does this answer your question.  I have noticed quite a lot on this site that you like to throw your expert weight about and DO jump to a lot of conclusions about people you do not even know!!! I'm interested in showing and agility with the help of my mentor.  Hobby breeding makes me wish to scream!!!!  The reason i was brought up around lots of pets is my family (parents) did rescue!!! So for arguements sake lets not go down this line of questioning.  So rescue, not pretty rescue either, not cant cope with dog please help rescue, but dogs on deaths door through irresponsible breeding methods... Dogs with no fur, eyes all full of ulcers, due to being kept in cages in there own urine for weeks/months on end (one dog came to us who had been locked in a cage for most of her life, her cage was so small that it took 12 months before she could stand and walk properly).  Dogs so far gone with mange they had no fur and where all cut to ribbons through scratching, I saw and watched my family bring these dogs to full health, neuter and rehome and i helped, only once having to have a toy breed put to sleep, as it didn't have a single tooth in its head, its owner decided to use it as a football, you could see every bone in its body and it was so weak it could not stand!!!! So please these are my memories of hobby/farm breeders.  NO NO NO to your question.

Nor will i state i wont breed from my girl when older... She is of fantastic breeding.  But this would be with the help of my mentor, finding the correct stud and helping me re-home the puppies, keeping a girl to continue my show potential, agility potential (this is a long process that has been though- rethought and will prob be thought about again.  You see and i know you lot know, i will not be able to show if she is spayed!!!.  I am not saying i will breed... time will tell.  One thing is for sure it wont be a hobby!!! I am learning all the time and i will not do to dogs what i have witnessed, i would rather cut of my hands!!!! If i am knowledgeable and confident and my girl is of correct temperament and health then perhaps, if not i wont!!!

Finally, i am upset and stressed as i have had to contact the latter breeder and advise of not having her pup, it has upset my children as they thought we were having a second dog, appreciate that they will have one to love, but children are a little more complex than dogs!!!  I should know!!!