which food is better for our dogs? the one with high portein, such as Orijen; or the one with low portein, such as Burns?     or does this depend on the different breed, for example chihuahua or Rotti, pom or Asatian. 

I now feeding my malamute boy with totally raw diet: beef, lamb,chicken,turkey,organ and so on , but have learned more about the compelet dog dry food, I am confused.  does anybody know how much portein or fat or other necessary component our dog need daily?  how much portein does a 30KG dog  need daily? or anybody would like provide a link which is from pet nutritional specialist？ thanks a lot for this

Cant help you with protein levels advice really there are others on here who can but if your Mal is doing well on raw why change?

Both of mine, chihuahua and gsd are raw fed and it suits them wonderfully and I wish i had known more about this with previous dogs I also find it is as cheap if not cheaper than complete foods.

Do you mean PROTEIN? If so, a very high protein food can actually be harmful and also lead to over excitability...

sorry for my mistake, yes the Protein. 

Ahh okay then...yes you definately want to be guided by exactly what is right for your breed...I think I'm right in saying that if you feed raw you should also give some vegetables too...but I am by no means an expert in feeding...let alone raw!

I would suggest that you shouldn't give too much protein(in a complete food) as it may in some cases, apart from the hyperactivity, cause juvenile scurvy...why not put feeding dogs into google and get a broad picture of all kinds of stuff!

There are some feeding 'experts' on here...some should be taken heed of and others ingnored! Like I said, you need a broad base of information to look over before you make any decisions or changes to your current regime...all the best, Dawn

sorry for my unwise, Iam a litte confused about what is the best protein level for dog. I heart a lot from people about the harmness of high protein food, but this link: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth    it said high protein is ok for healthy dogs, is it true? and I am thinking about  ORIJEN, the ingredient Orijen 6 Fish is: Protein 44.0% , Fat 18.0% , is the proportion of 44% ok ? or higher?

I read from this link as well about the protein level for dog daily, people can take a look at the page 5: DAILY RECOMMENDED ALLOWANCES FOR PROTEIN AND FATS,
http://dels.nas.edu/dels/rpt_briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf

it says a auldt dog weighting 33lb needs 25g Crude Protein, and 14 g total fat, I dont know what is the different between the CRUDE PROTEIN and other Protein, is it right that the CRUDE PROTEIN is from the raw meat or raw diet?  many complete dry food is around 25%-30%, such as Royal Canin.

I fed my malamute boy using PRIZE CHOICE FROZEN MINCED bought from pets at home store（this picture, http://prizechoice.co.uk/products/mincedmeats/all-beef.php）which was recommend by his breeder when from his 2 month-4month， but I found on the bag, the protein is only 15%, is it ok for dog? Iam afriad of it is not enough , so I changed to the meat and bone from supermarket (2.5% of bodyweight) last month： the fresh beef and lamb and chicken turkey, since one month feeding ,I find he loves this but that really cost a lot!!!!! I dont think I can afford that for all his life!!!  if this diet is ok for dog, can anybody tell me how can I find some butcher or farm which is more cheaper than those from supermarket?  thanks a lot for all reply .

thank you newfiedreams :

yes I blend some veg to the mince but not every day, and I use some supplement such as sea kelp powder and garlic tablet, and sometimes fish oil. but I really dont know whether all this supplement is necessary. I think I dont know the best feeding level of nutrition the dog need, he is my first dog, he is one and only in my life. I feeding him totally according the breeder recommand , the breeder said dont give the dog complete dry food, because that is all for commercial purpose. not for the dog's health. so I keep on raw .

mastiff lover is pretty up on protein contents etc, you could give her a PM :)

Might be worth you sending a PM to HuskyGal...she knows about this sorta stuff!!

IMO the best source on here for info re protein and any additives to natural diets is  tohme - I think sending her a PM will prove your best bet.  Despite only posting sporadically she's usually around and about and extremely helpful as well as knowledgeable  :)  Also Liv since I've just noticed the Mal connection thanks to newfie :-p

I'd recommend you join the The Britbarf Group for assistance from highly experienced raw and home prepared feeders.

HTH, Teri  

Yes Brit barf is excellent , you could also look at krisannrio website and the book a dogs dinner by ann ridyard. also raw meaty bones website ,books tom lonsdale and ian billinghurst. Dont know where you live but I source my meat from mobile pet foods, also landywoods and berriewoods if you have enough room to store larger amounts. Obviously all this info is for info on raw feeding/barf. I have no experience of your breed though so as more knowledgeable people suggested pm to the mal owners . good luck.
btw i spend about 40.00 a month for a gsd I know others who can buy in larger quantities can save more money.

AAFCO Standard: Recommended Protein % Recommended Fat %

Puppy Protein 28% Fat 17%
Adult dog Protein 18% Fat 9-15%
Performance dog P 25% F 20%
Racing sled dog P 35% F 50%
Lactating dog P 28% F 17%

The real mine field here is that the above percentages are recommended amounts with respect to what the dog actually absorbs or processes.   So, if you have feed a manufactured food that derives a lot of its protein content from grain and less readily absorbed meat-based proteins (stuff with low digestible bits, like hide or feathers, etc.) the amount of protein that a dog can actually may be as low as 60%.   If the majority of the protein comes from meat (fresh meat or meat meal), the amount the dog can actually make use of is closer to 80%.

So at least from me, a grain-based complete food which says on the package is 18% protein is too low in protein for me to feel comfortable feeding it to my dogs - at least not as their only source of nutrion.

If you google there are a lot of sites that give nutrition facts, which you may find interesting.  For example, one raw, boneless chicken wing weighing 29 grams contains 5 grams of protein.  

It is really confusing so I do agree the best thing to do is to talk to people with experience feeding your breed of dog.   

Thanks Teri...I was a bit short of time yesterday to answer fully and was really passing a curved ball! Thanks for that too Cairn!

You also need to bear in mind the difference with feeding dry foods and wet foods such as the Prize Choice meats.

The 15% for the Prize Choice sounds really low when compared to the 44% for dry Orijen. And Naturediet etc is around 10-11%. The moisture content needs taking into account. Can't remember the exact ratio, but I think to get an equal comparison the wet foods need to be x4. Therefore on an equal basis Prize Choice would be 60%, Naturediet 40-44% and Orijen 44%.

I've probably confused everyone now!

> was really passing a curved ball

The best kind hun - done that a few times, plan on doing it again :-D

Dogydogy999,I've just started ordering from this company http://www.back-2-nature.co.uk/index.html as their variety packs contain the correct ratio of meat/offal/bone(am I right in thinking it should be 80% meat,10% offal and 10%bone?).This should make it much easier for you.They also don't have a minimum order unlike most companies.
If you're feeding just muscle meat you'll need to add calcium or the calcium/phosphorus ratio won't be right.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawk9s/

apparently ths website forum is full of information

thank you furriefriends :  yes, I fed him using the same product from mobile pet foods 3month ago, but I found from the back of the package, the protein is 15% in beef, 12% in lamb, and his breeder fed all the puppies using this.  but after reading some articles, I think 15% protein is not enough for growing puppy, although I gave him the egg or cheese sometimes, I still dont know how much is right , then I change to buying the meat or bones from supermarket, I need to spent 3-4pounds everyday to feed him  last month, because I cant find a right meat source. that is over my budget to having a dog.  thanks a lot for all information:)

Hi Cairnmania , thank you for the information:)   I dont feed him any manufactured food , I just made some oat-cheese biscuit for him as treat. his breeder told me the grain or corn is not necessary for dogs, and over intaking can lead a puppy overweight, which is bad for growing puppy's bone and joint. yes, I measure his dinner, 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% organ, and sometimes a litter blend-veg.   last week, I took him to puppy party to give him social training, one of the puppy owner told me ORIJEN is a very good complete dry food, no grain, no corn...  so I google this product but found the protein is 44% which confused me about the dog daily  protein intake . and whether high protein food  ok or harmful for dog is a question in my mind. my neighbor has a staffshire bull terrier, he told my dog need low protein , he recommend Burns. which totally confused me, -o-'''   

I find some interesting thing, (all boneless): 100g normal beef contains 20g protein. 100g normal lamb contains 19g protein. 100g rabbit contains 19.7 g protein .100 g pork contains 13.2g protein ....

thanks for reply again

thanks Teri:

yes I try to join as member in the group.

Hi STARRYEYES: thank you , I am look at the website, and email to join as member, but I find they get some advise on no vaccine for dogs, is it because Great Dane is that kind of dog who has risk in vaccine? or is that all naturely reared?

thank you helenmd :  yes, I have email them for some price of the product. and need to have a look at the package. 

Hi Pedlee: I take a look at the bag, the typical analysis is : protein 15%, oil: 8.5%, moisture 73% . it is in 454g package.

on the bag , it says should mix some veg or mix some complete dry food,  it is right? I remeber that dogs  digest raw meat need less time than the grain or corn. if mix the Prize Choice meats and dry food, that is harmful for dogs, is it right? if I feed my Mal boy using Prize Choice meats, do you think I need to add some other meat ? for example, add a piece of lamb leg meat, or add a chicken meat  thanks for reply

Dogydogy999,if you want to compare the protein content of fresh meat compared to dry food like Orijen you first need to subtract the moisture content.So say if the moisture content of beef is 70%,that leaves 30% dry matter,20/30 =66% which is much higher than Orijen at 44%.I'm sure someone else could explain that much better than me!
By the way,your neighbour with the staffie doesn't know what he's talking about-dogs thrive on high protein diets(as long as the protein is high quality)and grains can cause health problems.You've had good advice from your breeder.

You don't need to feed any dry complete food if you feed raw but if you do it probably best to use a grain free food such as Orijen.I feed raw and Orijen with no problems.

With regard to vaccine question it is personal choice. Some people in the same way as some people dont agree with vaccinating children do not agree with vaccinating their dogs. I have close relative who is a homeopath and strongly believes there are many problems with vaccinations and will not vaccinate her dogs or her children. I find this a nightmare discussion and am still sitting somewhere on the fence. 
It is not specific to any particular breed but more to do with the belief that some diseases and conditions both behavoural and physical can/may be caused by vaccines. There is a lot written about both views for and against on many websites including here , there is also no connection between raw feeding and non vaccination other than perhaps those that feed naturally may be more inclined to have views other than the majority

Hi dogydogy,

Sheeeesh! We have a fair few myths to bust here don't we ;) No wonder you are confused Petal!

> I dont know what is the different between the CRUDE PROTEIN and other Protein, is it right that the CRUDE PROTEIN is from the raw meat or raw diet? 

Crude protein  is an estimate rather than a thing! it estimates the total protein content of a feed.....When measuring crude protein, the nitrogen content of a feed sample is determined . Since proteins contain 16% nitrogen on average, the nitrogen value is multiplied by a factor of 6.25 (commonly) to calculate the crude protein content of the feed. Since crude protein level includes both true protein (amino acids) and non protein nitrogen, it does not provide information regarding the quality or availability of the protein in a particular feed.

Other myths to bust:-

~ There is (as yet) no scientific data to conclude that high protein and hyperactivity are closely linked.
   ( I generally suspect in those instances of swearing it does..owner may better look at mental & physical stimulation their dog gets;) )

~ There are no specific requirements for protein for dogs.
   (Fat content is dogs energy source ;))
   Dogs need: Energy: (this can be supplied by Fats,proteins or Carbs)
                   Nutrients: (Water,essential amino acids,essential fatty acids,minerals & Vitamins)
  N.B. Carbohydrates and Fibre are not essential.

Dogs have been known to selectively choose foods high in protein (during scientific trials) but! wether this is simply a matter of taste or a complex response to their biological need to have all 10 essential amino acids..... as yet noones put money on it ;)
  Studies have shown that dogs can tell when their food lacks a single amino acid, and they will avoid that food stuff/source.

I feed a predominantly Raw diet.
But have used 'BARF' equivalent kibble foods with great success (5 years in the Sates with working sled dogs on EVO/Gold et al  and with my own dogs who are sedentary Ive used Timberwolf and Orijen and still do on occassion use Orijen and Natures menu)

HTH?
Liv :)

p.s.

Before I head off to bed I'm leaving a wee glass of something strong for Tohme ;)
(She will need it to stay her frazzled nerves at the resurgance of *that* myth she's been trying to bust for years now!! and still it comes up!!??)
   But even after a glass of my 'rocket fuel' she will be infinately more succicnt and knowlegable than I could ever be! :)

Ohhh I'm sorry!! T'was it me rekindled the myth? I was told by a 'leading' breeder that too much protein caused hyperactivity!

However, just to show I do have an occassional slip I will apologise and say I'm SORRY!! Now, remember the date! It may never happen again!

> remember the date! It may never happen again!

ROFL!!!! ..... But Newf Friday the 13th has been and gone!!! ;) :-P
               
       *Ducks!*

Yeah and ducky you better duck low! I throw a mean curve ball don't forget! Cheeky madam! ;-)

Don't cha know there's another Friday 13th this month!??

Drunk with pleasure, not read every line of this thread but there are a couple of other things that labels do not tell you.

What percentage of the protein is complete and what is incomplete (as most dog foods are primarily grain based they are thus mostly incomplete hence the array of amino acids that are added).

Secondly the bio-availability of protein (I could make a food 100% protein out of leather, but the dog would not be able to get any goodness out of it).

Goes down to lie in darkened room.

o, yes, that sounds correct to subtract the moisture content. so that means the PRIZE CHOICE FROZEN MINCED is better than ORIJEN? thanks a lot for info :) , because ORIJEN is no grain dry food ,so   I can give my boy ORIJEN mix with the raw meat ,is it right?

thanks furriefriends :

Iam now prefer no vac, leastwise I willnot booster him every year . and I am also want to find a qualified homeopathic vet in west midland, but not find till now. if I cant find one, I will do titer test and if necessary will do the single vaccination rather than a combo one.  

dogy9:)

hi HuskyGal :
thank you for all information , yes I will try Orijen , can I mix orijen and Natures menu together to feed him , or separate such as orijen in the morning and nature menu in the evening?

HG - slightly off topic I guess -  I received my 1st delivery of Orijen today.  It looks sort of 'vac-packed' as there is hardly any air in the bags, is this how it should be (only ever seen pics of it on the net and never a 'real life' bag before)?  I haven't been brave enough to open it yet for fear of a kibble explosion.

Not so lucky with the ND, one pack appears to have 'leaked' in the box, yucky but no harm done.

Hi Georgepig-yep-thats normal-don't worry it won't explode!

I will ask around to see if I can find you a contact for a homeopathic vet then pm you

go on to the homeopathic vet site BAHVS