We went to see a behaviourist to have her assess our dogs and see if anything could be done for Lubo (synopisis, he has fear agression and nips people if he gets the chance, he is the youngest of 2 schnauzers at 4 years old yesterday!  Plus a lot of it is inherited as his mum was also quite aggressive).

She studied them, asked us loads of questions about them and said that our first dog, Poppy,  as she had lived with us for so long before we got Lubo, she spoke 'human' language first and canine second.  When she studied Lubo she said he took a lot of his pointers from Poppy and that his first language is canine.  They had quite an expensive program that we could follow, which involved completely splitting them up for five weeks and then never ever letting them be together on their own again (i.e. keep them in different rooms until we get home).  Unfortunately the whole thing was about £600 - £700 quid and I've got problems at home so can't afford that right now. 

I just wondered what other people thought about this as if I could eventually get the money together I'd consider it as she seemed very knowledgeable.  However I've been burned by behaviourists before, in fact, i think they can see me coming.  (I just want Lubo to stop trying to attack people).

Any thoughts

Jo
x

Hi,

Sorry your having problems but I would stay well clear of anything like that.  I can't imagine a context where it would make sense to say one of the dogs first languages is human - it really sounds absolutely crazy and that they don't know what they are really doing at best and that they are taking advantage of people in a vulnerable situation at worst.  The cost is also way over the top, is that the cost of consultations to follow up?  If they have already been to assess they should have talked through the kind of things that would help and be sending you  detailed behaviour report/plan that allows you to work through the problems.  She should have suggested keping a diary of his behaviour.  I would never sesperate my dogs entirely for five weeks at a time without very good reason and from what you've said I can't see why that should be the case. 

That said if I'm working with a dog that has a problem then I make sure I give them one to one walks and training sessions.  That is something that should be done IMO for dogs of multi dog households anyway as it's importnat that they get one to one time with their person any way, even if it's just a few short walks and training sessions a week.  My advice based on what you have said above would be run a mile.  Maybe if you say where you come from then someone could give you a recommendation of a reputable and experienced behaviourist that uses moderm methods :-)

the whole thing was about £600 - £700 quid

Wow!  I'm in the wrong profession!  :-)
Unfortunately, anyone can call themselves a behaviourist - can I ask firstly what this person's canine related academic qualifications are, where they got them from and how long they studied for them?  Also, what practical experience do they have - with what breeds and in what situations?  Are they a member of the APBC?  Did they require a vet referral?  If the answers to the last two questions are 'no', then steer well clear.

I would look on the APBC site to find someone in your area;  if you are struggling, there are some APDT people who would have the experience to help as well.  If you let us know vaguely what area you are in, someone on here may be able to recommend someone to you.

When you do get a reputable behaviourist to visit, they will certainly require you to follow up by training your dog on his own in order to help modify his behaviour.  It could be that he is in some way being cued by the other dog, so you may also end up with work to do with the other dog too, before finally starting to work them both together.  However, now I'm just hypothesising..........

> Plus a lot of it is inherited as his mum was also quite aggressive).
>

What a shame she was used for breeding :-(  Is the breeder aware of the problems you are having?  You rather feel they should be responsible for the cost of any behaviourist although it is doubtful they would take it up.  Might be worth asking though.  At the very least they may reconsider their breeding choices.

Thing is, we have tried before, we had moderate success with an amichen behaviourist and one disastrous behaviourist that set us back for months with someone calling themselves one, who quite clearly wasn't.

I did think it seemed a bit strange wanting to split them up for five weeks, they would absolutely miss each other. 

I did contact the breeder to tell her the problems we were having, from what she replied we've got off lightly.  She wasn't a 'proper' breeder and we weren't experienced enough to know a) the difference or b) that if the mother sits there baring her teeth at you then thats a BAD SIGN.

He's ours now anyhow and although he has ruined my social life, he is here to stay.  Just going to have to keep trying. 

That's a shame.  I would follow the advise here regarding finding a suitably qualified trainer and the best of luck in getting him sorted.

I have had a vet referral to a behaviorist (one that only does vet referrals and is a vet himself as well as a behavioursit) with lots of credentials, that cost me £100. With unlimited back up by phone etc afterward.

Thing is, we have tried before, we had moderate success with an amichen behaviourist and one disastrous behaviourist that set us back for months with someone calling themselves one, who quite clearly wasn't.


Hence being recommended to go to someone from the APBC.  If you look at the individual profiles their qualifications are clearly listed. 
http://www.apbc.org.uk/

I recently had cause to look up the training that an amichen 'behaviourist' goes through and I was gobsmacked.  Basically, there is a 2 day basic course, followed by a 3 day advanced course.  The agendas for the courses are here:  http://www.janfennellthedoglistener.com/info/index.php/seminars  If you strip out all the breaks and lunches etc, you are talking 20 hours tuition in total!!  There also appear to be no prereqs for entry to the course.  Enough said.

> I did contact the breeder to tell her the problems we were having, from what she replied we've got off lightly.  She wasn't a 'proper' breeder and we weren't experienced enough to know a) the difference or b) that if the mother sits there baring her teeth at you then thats a BAD SIGN.
>

i do hope that the people who find this on google take note of this- its exactly why you need a good breeder as i'm sure the op would agree.

to the op, that sounds pretty dodgy to me to be honest, where did you find this 'behaviourist'? i'd say look on the site as suggested, and maybe if you can say where abouts you are someone might have a reccommendation?

i do hope you find someone who can really help

you may have to do what i do with my schnauzer- muzzle her if strangers come in the house and have eyes in the back of my head in the park. if i see a lone man/ jogger/biker, she goes straight on the lead. you may find training the really reliable recall (DVD) is very useful as you can get them back in a flash for a piece of cheese!

what muzzle do you use if you don't mind me asking?

PS I went to that site and asked about prices and someone emailed me and said that for a couple of hours visit plus follow up would cost me about £200.

Is this standard prices?

Hi Jo
I would email a couple of different people to get a feel for current pricing.  I've just had a quick look at David Appleby's site and he is charging £85 + vat for a consultation (£120 if he sees you at Newmarket).

I've also just had a peek at your profile and I see that you are in North London (?) - if that's the case, then I would probably expect prices to be a bit higher than out here in the sticks.  :-)

I would also pick up the phone and speak to these people and/or their associates to see if you feel comfortable with them.   A few years ago someone recommended Dr Daniel Mills from Lincoln University to me;  he was absolutely wonderful when I picked up the phone totally out of the blue and poured forth all my woes.  He gave me an incredible amount of advice for free over the phone - in fact, I never did end up going to visit him, but as a result of that call I knew that he would be the one that I would go to and that it would be money well spent. He was professional, empathatic, had the experience and would deploy techniques similar to those that I had used in the past.

It's time consuming doing the research, but time well spent to ensure that you get the right solution for your dog and value for money.

Ah I moved recently and I'm in Southend now.  (must update profile!)

You're right, i should call some of them really. 

x

This may not be much help to you as the guy involved lives in Glasgow but one of my colleagues has 2 rather aggressive Westies, he has tried all sorts of training, treats, classes etc. and a few weeks ago contacted a behaviourist who is an ex RAF dog handler. He charged £60 for 4 hours work with the dogs with a money back guarantee. My colleague is VERY impressed with the results and has been able to walk the dogs without incident so far.
Is there maybe someone from this type of background, army, police etc. who can help you? It may be worthwhile looking into how much actual handling/training experience people have and not just some college course they've been on.
Good luck

i think its called a baskaville muzzle, its roomy and they can pant

Hi!

New to this great site.

Had a similar problem with one of my male Shelties.

Turns out I was causing his problem...Gee...now there is a revelation! :)
                                                                                   
I am the 'Alpha' all the time now (was a bit fearful at times & I realize now my dog was picking up on it) and dogs always need a strong leader...                                                                                         

Took him to 'obedience' class again as a refresher for us both....I've started carrying a walking stick when out & about (helps gives me confidence to ward off problems). I behave like I am in complete charge & take control immediately...and he is feeling a lot more secure.. Anytime he makes even a gesture of aggression I show immediate disapproval and he is now looks to me for direction everytime anyone approaches..

To my delight he isn't guarding me or nipping dogs & people anymore..

Hope my experience helps..
                                                                                                          

hi bostontea, could you pm the guy from glasgows details (sounds just what i need)
thanks
c

Turns out I was causing his problem...Gee...now there is a revelation!
Dogs can actually hear human hearbeats, (as can horses) so if anyone is fearful imagine what this can do to the dog (or horse!) :)
                                                                                   
I am the 'Alpha' all the time now (was a bit fearful at times & I realize now my dog was picking up on it) and dogs always need a strong leader...                             

The term alpha, along with dominance etc has been pretty much discredited, even by some of those whose research regarding wolf studies actually influenced its use. Although some tv celebs haven't kept up with the times on this fact.
I do agree dogs need a person who they can rely on (this includes the building up of trust etc) but if a dog is fearful it may need more than the owner being stronger minded. For instance a dog who has been attacked, and whose owner tells him off when he shows aggression, will only learn to be quiet, but not how to get rid of its conditioned fear :) and so people can think he's fine and safe, as he isn't showing aggression.

Speaking generally in this instance :)

Is there maybe someone from this type of background, army, police etc. who can help you? It may be worthwhile looking into how much actual handling/training experience people have and not just some college course they've been on.

There are some very good dog handlers from the police and RAF, I've met a couple whom I really like and respect. However many of them are very old school and simply use force and bullying to train and use check chains, etc to make the dogs obey. They don't necessarily tackle the issues at root level though... :)

We have one near us who unfortunately is the latter type. People in his classes worship him (the ones who leave them tend to dislike him in equal measure ).
He messed up  GSd by throwing bean bags at it when it growled at people and lunged at them (due to fear) and it stopped doing the growling and lunging.
But, the trainer didn't know anything about what he'd really done, which was to make the dog into a time bomb.

The dog sadly attacked a waitress who approached him on a beach walk with the club :(

I've never forgotten that (it was some years ago now) and it partially influenced the way I do things now :)

Lindsay
x

Thanks everyone, some really interesting thoughts.

I'm now in the situation where my partner and I are splitting up and due to financial reasons the dogs are being left with me (even though they are his!!).

This means that I am going to be the sole owner of two dogs, one of whom attacks (by running at them and nipping them) people randomly if they come to my house.  At the moment I obviously have to have him on the lead at all times - however, I'd really really love to train him to not attack people in our home - will using a muzzle help here?  Has anyone got any suggestions?  I have a couple of friends who have volunteered to help me providing they don't get bitten.

I didn't realise the alpha male stuff was discredited, what should I be doing then!!??

How disheartening after all of these 'behaviourists' and money spent, the problem is no better, please take heed from those on here who recommend an apbc behaviourist you won't go wrong. :-)

In the meantime his home situation is easy to rectify - The reason for his aggression I can't help with, he needs to be watched and properly assessed by a proffessional behaviourist however I can give you an immediate solution to his home life, the beloved dog gate, just keep him behind it when you have visitors, he can't bite or hurt anyone and it will give him time to settle when people first come in.  When they are in, you may then put a lead on him walk him in the room and have him sit next to you whilst the visitors are there, if he growls or tries to go for people whilst on lead, take him back behind the dog gate and try again a few minutes later, if he is good and sits nicely without trying to attack anyone then give him a treat and a good boy pat, if not, back behind the dog gate, it won't be a 5 minute fix, it may take weeks and weeks for him to eventually just sit nicely next to you and ignore your visitors, whom should ignore him until he is complient.

I don't personally like dogs muzzled in the home, a dog gate or crate is a much nicer solution for him.

Some breeds are bossier than others but time outs IMO work for all breeds, it is a clear message whatever the reason is for his aggression, being seperated and shown he has no control over a situation and is segregated when he does not do as you want soon gets over that you are in charge not him!  Strong eye contact and a calm stern voice work wonders you must never shout or get angry that actually excites a dog he thinks you are joining in or may become fearful of you. :-)

So for now I would recommend, a dog gate, lead him, and time outs when not complient and an apbc behaviourist to sort out what is causing his aggression in the first place. :-)

alpha schmalpha

I didn't realise the alpha male stuff was discredited, what should I be doing then!!??

It's easy really - just don't think in terms of human and dog hieararchy. Instead, train, train, train - for good manners, teach boundaries, good recall, a quick sit, etc and for most people that's actually a pretty well trained dog. Use games to bond with the dog and toys and food to train. Often best to get the dog to "work" for rewards but sometimes just have fun and play and enjoy being a dog owner :)

Some good advice here:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/table/behaviour-training/

Hth :)

Will speak to my colleague today and PM you the details.

OOPs...replied to the wrong person!
Christine, I'll try and get those details today. Was speaking to my colleague earlier today and he had both dogs out yesterday on a very long busy walk. Only one tiny reaction from one of the dogs which was quickly checked and no more incidents. Guy is very pleased as before this walk would have been a nightmare.

did you manage to get the details

thanks x

Only one tiny reaction from one of the dogs which was quickly checked and no more incidents. Guy is very pleased as before this walk would have been a nightmare.

Can I ask if you mean the dog was checked if it was barking at another dog?
As if so, assuming you refer to a physical check or verbal check, although this can work, it can also backfire ...sorry to sound negative...:(

I'd run a mile if anyone suggested using it with fear aggression to people, but I've not kept up with the thread so maybe I'm not up with what's going on.

Christine,

Have PM'd the details to you. Good Luck