> If i could afford to I would take her there everyday and then i would have no problems and her stress levels would be greatly reduced.

have you tried using something other than a walk to tire her? maybe a stimulating game like a nina ottosen toy? or excersize in the house/garden of some kind? the only things i can think of of hand would be a tredmill-which i would asume is far to expensive to consider, or people were talking before about some sort of lunging thing used to strengthen staffies- i doubt that would be suitable either as if you ahve trouble controlling her now i can't imagine getting her stronger would be a good plan. i only mention them in the hope that others can suggest something.

how big is your garden? you could maybe do some basic agility? it would be easy and cheap enough to set up some basic equipment

There is no way my Friends would walk their bitch anywhere dogs may be off lead.  It is strictly pavement pounding and crossing the road if another person or dog come in view.

So there is no longer any issue with dogs running up to her.  It just isn't worth the stress to try and walk her anywhere else.

Problem I have is Shady's fear aggression towards traffic, children and now adults too as well as dogs.  unfortunatly round here dogs are so often off lead on paths by the road too.
Only yesterday before I could even get Shady out of the car a dog came bounding up to the car which i had just parked on the side of the road in a quieter dog area where this doesn't happen so often.
Twice she has been attacked when younger walking nicely on the lead beside me along a pavement on a fairly main road and the dogs just bounded round the corner with the owners several yards behind not bothering to call thier dogs back.

> Twice she has been attacked when younger walking nicely on the lead beside me along a pavement on a fairly main road and the dogs just bounded round the corner with the owners several yards behind not bothering to call thier dogs back.

Did her fear aggression become apparent after being attacked or was she like it before?

She has always been what i call nuerotic and has always had a very high prey drive, not liked children or traffic the attacks just seemed to tip her over the edge with dogs, she has been attacked many times now and one dog even lunged and bit her causing damage to her tongue that needed stitching while she was sitting quietly beside me minding her own buisness.  Its as if she has "Victim please bite me" written on her forhead as dogs even those that are normally good natured have gone for her, she has no intention of any dog apart from a couple of oldies she knows well, getting anywhere near her now if she can help it.

its funny you do tend to get ones like that. some seem to inspire it from their size ("i'll get it before it gets me!") and some just have something about them other dogs don't like.

you have some stuff to look into now though so i wouldn't lose hope yet.

Hi
You have already had lots of excellent suggestions but I would just like to touch on something Teri said. My last GSD started to get attacked (proper attacks with puncture wounds!!) when she reached about six months. I was a very experienced GSD owner but couldn't work out the triggers. At one point it was suggested by a Vet that she was having momentary fear induced seizures, which were triggering the attacks from the other dogs. Sadly at 7 years of age we lost her with a brain tumour. Looking back both my vet and I are sure that the tumour was probably present from those early days.

Just another thought, there is a relatively new product on the market called Zylkene. It is not a cure, but is designed to be used whilst a behavioural modification programme is put in place. I have heard some excellent reports from a friend who works at a very large animal hospital and also know a couple of people who have used it (not on themselves). Both say that they saw a marked difference in their dogs, being far more relaxed and less reactive. If you google Zylkene you will find the info.

Hi bevb

I notice you've already had medication suggested as a potential method of dealing with Shady's troubles. At the risk of setting off a big debate about ethics, etc., I am reminded of a dog I had over 20 years ago who came to me via a number of fairly traumatic experiences. He was a lovely little Lancashire Heeler, but was totally incapable of being left alone. He ate through doors, howled like a bloodhound, had a very high sex drive and was so destructive/terrified that it got to the point where I couldn't do anything for him without resorting to what I see as  a last resort. He is the only dog I ever took to be castrated and I kept him dosed with acepromazine for a week after. I have to say that he was a completely changed dog after that--once he was able to realise that the sky was not falling in every time I left him on his own, he had no further trouble.

I am not in any way recommending this route because I think it is extreme and because ace just inhibits the dog's physical reaction; mentally, he may be just as stressed as ever. However, people in my village were ready to kill him and me because of his antisocial behaviour and this was a standard last resort at the practice I worked at in the US about 25 years ago. You'll have to form your own opinion, but for me it was better than giving up on him and he went on to have a good and happy life.

There is a link to a report that is worth reading and sums this treatment up far better than I can:

http://www.pro-boxers.com/acepromazine_chlorpromazine.pdf

Hello Bev,
After reading your story my heart goes out to you with your troubled girl Shady.

When my male became a nightmare at 4 years old the police got involved because he killed a neighbours dog and I will say that after taking him to a intense one to one dog aggression expert for a 6 week training course, I learnt so much- obviously he was not all brilliant after his 6 weeks- it took me months and  months to finally sort out his aggression to other dogs-[ many walks balling my eyes out and taking copious amounts of rescue remedy for him & me!] lucky his fear aggression was to other dogs males mostly, not everything like your girl.
I am really worried for you as she does sound like a ticking time bomb. A friend years ago had a white shepherd that had fits of madness I started walking him with a muzzle and a little stick to be honest to tap him on his leg has all the pulling and telling him to leave would be useless when he went into one of his mad episodes. I found him much better after he stopped eating bounce dog food and I took him out for an hour a day after dark I may add less people around. Sadly the owner decided that he was too far gone and would not re home him due to the chance he might savage someone. I was so upset and thought in the right hands could be an ok dog with an experienced owner. The vet at the time did say that he could of been suffering from a brain tumor sadly he was pts at only 2 yrs old.
I will admit after my dog did what he did, I thought if I can't rehabilitate him to be a sociable pet then I would of seriously considered having him pts.

We can all blame the breed of your dog and the bad start she had when she was a puppy but many dogs who have been rescued do settle down and become manageable. You have had your girl now for 3 years? You are an experienced dog owner of 35 years, given her 100% time commitment and energy and spent hundreds of pounds to sort out her attitude to no avail. Yes she is a fantastic pet for you in your home as my boy was it just makes it harder to understand. I found it was my dog protecting me as with my son he is great. She is so over guarding you- the close bond you have with her might have to be severed for her to change.     

> I took him out for an hour a day after dark

This is what my friends have to do as she is afraid of everything, and gets really hyped up.  They wouldn't take her out at all if they lived in the country with land of their own.

I notice you've already had medication suggested as a potential method of dealing with Shady's troubles. At the risk of setting off a big debate about ethics, etc., I am reminded of a dog I had over 20 years ago who came to me via a number of fairly traumatic experiences. He was a lovely little Lancashire Heeler, but was totally incapable of being left alone. He ate through doors, howled like a bloodhound, had a very high sex drive and was so destructive/terrified that it got to the point where I couldn't do anything for him without resorting to what I see as  a last resort. He is the only dog I ever took to be castrated and I kept him dosed with acepromazine for a week after. I have to say that he was a completely changed dog after that--once he was able to realise that the sky was not falling in every time I left him on his own, he had no further trouble.

I am not in any way recommending this route because I think it is extreme and because ace just inhibits the dog's physical reaction; mentally, he may be just as stressed as ever. However, people in my village were ready to kill him and me because of his antisocial behaviour and this was a standard last resort at the practice I worked at in the US about 25 years ago. You'll have to form your own opinion, but for me it was better than giving up on him and he went on to have a good and happy life.

There is a link to a report that is worth reading and sums this treatment up far better than I can:

http://www.pro-boxers.com/acepromazine_chlorpromazine.pdf

Shady is a girl and has been spayed.

Hello Bev,
After reading your story my heart goes out to you with your troubled girl Shady.

When my male became a nightmare at 4 years old the police got involved because he killed a neighbours dog and I will say that after taking him to a intense one to one dog aggression expert for a 6 week training course, I learnt so much- obviously he was not all brilliant after his 6 weeks- it took me months and  months to finally sort out his aggression to other dogs-[ many walks balling my eyes out and taking copious amounts of rescue remedy for him & me!] lucky his fear aggression was to other dogs males mostly, not everything like your girl.
I am really worried for you as she does sound like a ticking time bomb. A friend years ago had a white shepherd that had fits of madness I started walking him with a muzzle and a little stick to be honest to tap him on his leg has all the pulling and telling him to leave would be useless when he went into one of his mad episodes. I found him much better after he stopped eating bounce dog food and I took him out for an hour a day after dark I may add less people around. Sadly the owner decided that he was too far gone and would not re home him due to the chance he might savage someone. I was so upset and thought in the right hands could be an ok dog with an experienced owner. The vet at the time did say that he could of been suffering from a brain tumor sadly he was pts at only 2 yrs old.
I will admit after my dog did what he did, I thought if I can't rehabilitate him to be a sociable pet then I would of seriously considered having him pts.

We can all blame the breed of your dog and the bad start she had when she was a puppy but many dogs who have been rescued do settle down and become manageable. You have had your girl now for 3 years? You are an experienced dog owner of 35 years, given her 100% time commitment and energy and spent hundreds of pounds to sort out her attitude to no avail. Yes she is a fantastic pet for you in your home as my boy was it just makes it harder to understand. I found it was my dog protecting me as with my son he is great. She is so over guarding you- the close bond you have with her might have to be severed for her to change.

Its not just me she is like it with she is the same whoever walks her, she is the same with the behaviourist, a friend, a dog trainer and a dog walker all with me not present, so i don't think its down to her over guarding me. If she will do and act the same with people she has no connection with.

    > I took him out for an hour a day after dark

This is what my friends have to do as she is afraid of everything, and gets really hyped up.  They wouldn't take her out at all if they lived in the country with land of their own.

Sadly round where i live after dark is the worst time to walk.  As soon as darkenss fall the chavs and thier staffs appear in droves looking for trouble.  They seem to enjoy thier dogs being as aggresive as possible and encourage them to attack other dogs.  All my front door is scratched where they have encouraged thier dogs to try and fight my girl through the front door.
You won't see many people attempting to walk thier dog here at night unless they want it attacked.

Hi Bevb, just wanted to say i have read all the posts, and i really feel for you, you sound such a responsible caring owner who just wants the best for Shady. I hope their is light at the end of the tunnel for you both.

Best wishes
Hayley x

> He is the only dog I ever took to be castrated and I kept him dosed with acepromazine for a week after. I have to say that he was a completely changed dog after that

I would think the castration possibly had rather more to do with it.

Hi bevb

Like Brainless's friend, I have a well socialised, well brought up Dobe girl which I bred, who is exactly like your Shady. Reading your posts I could just as easily be reading about Hattie. She has been seen by behaviourists and various trainers and although during some sessions we seem to make some progress, get her out into the "real" world and all progress goes out of the window. I am lucky in that I live in a fairly small village and can walk her without coming across too many people/dogs etc. and can walk her where other dogs don't go (I know the farmers who allow me to walk off footpaths). But I don't let her off the lead and if she does come across something I can hold her (luckily she is under 30kgs) with the aid of a Gencon. I also do agility with her in the garden which gives her something else to do and burns off some energy, and the other 5 dogs keep her occupied.

You certainly aren't alone and I wish you all the best. I have come to the conclusion Hattie is just who she is, and I either accept it and live with it or I don't. As we speak she is curled up on the sofa with her Mother and butter wouldn't melt!

If you fancy a chat, from someone in the same position, PM your phone number and I'll give you a ring.

Karen

> bevb,

> When she goes into aggressing mode does she at any point appear to come to, as though she snaps out of the behaviour? You mention that one of your behaviourists said that she goes blank- is this another way of saying she absolutely cannot get through to her, or that she appears to be in an altered state and then comes to? I only ask because some vets and behaviourists think there is a link between types of so-called "rage syndrome" and thyroid problems. Also does she sometimes react when you least expect it or can you consistently predict her reaction to any stimuli?

Just wanted to echo this thought.  My Soli has a few times now seemed to go into a kind of 'trance', where she will just growl and growl and get louder and more toothy, and the only way to bring her out of it is to startle her.  The first time scared me half to death - she was asleep on the bedroom floor, and just started growling at me.  No rhyme or reason to it at all and to this day I've not worked out what happened - she appeared to be in this trance-like state and was escalating her growls steadily, in the end the only way I could bring her out of it was to throw a pillow at her.  She then spent the rest of the night downstairs (by her own choice).  And a little while ago,  I stroked her ear and she started it again - again, escalating and the only way I could get her back that time was to kick the chair she was lying on.  Again, it startled her out of it and she left the room looking confused.

Not quite the same I know but I thought it might be worth saying.  She has a history of dog aggression - nothing like your poor girl certainly, but it was bad when she first came home.

Oh, re. the thyroid test - get the most comprehensive test you can.  Ideally a 6-factor pabel by dr dodds in the states, failing that a 4-factor in the UK and have Dr Dodds review the results.  She knows her stuff and also holds information for breed values, so she doesn't look at the results just as a dog - Remy came up hypothyroid after her test by dobe standards, but by dog standards he's normal.  He'd have turned up normal on a UK test/analysis.

Do you train with her at all?  Just thinking that with stressed out dogs, the adrenalin from one incident can linger for days, so if there was some way you could give her short walks and more training (to wear her out) it might help in the longer term.

Hi bevb
I was so sorry to read about all your problems with Shady. You have certainly tried your best. The only other thing that occurred to me was one of these: MasterPlus spray collar, or similar. Apparently it releases "completely innocuous spray which surprises your dog through noise, a cold sensation and the sight of a cloud" I've never used one but coincidentally we were talking to a friend at the weekend who works with difficult dogs, and he has used these collars for a range of problems and had a lot of success. It's an aversion therapy and might be worth a go. I think you can get them from Pet Planet, quite pricy though.

Finally I hope your next vet appointment will help you to decide what to do next. You are trying so hard but remember, you have to have a life as well.

Thanks for all your replies everyone.
I took Shady to the vets this morning the vet took bloods and said she would ring me this afternoon with the results.  She checked Shadys eyes and ears, all was fine there, she said she felt the blood in her poo was stress induced colitis and is trying her on some kaolin  paste stuff to see if that helps, if it doesn;'t she will give her something stronger.
Stupid me forgot to ask for a thyroid test.
Anyway vet phoned me this evening just after I popped out (don't they always).  Anyway she left me a message to say she has Shadys blood results and needs to discuss them with me, She said to ring her tomorrow, it was nothing to panic about, but she does need to discuss it with me.  So now i shall have to be kept in suspenders until tomorrow to see what it showed, which i presume it did if she needs to discuss it with me.
On a good note apart from getting totally stressed over a dog on the other side of the road, Shady was calmer today as we didn't meet any other dogs and she didn't react to any adults today either.  So felt a lot happier.

> So felt a lot happier.

Ah, that's good to hear :)

>So now i shall have to be kept in suspenders until tomorrow to see what it showed, which i presume it did if she needs to discuss it with me.

LOL, kept in suspenders :-D It's going to feel like such a long wait untill you get to speak to the vet tommorow :(
Please keep us updated, fingers crossed the blood results show something that can be worked on to have a positive effect on her temperment, after all the work you've put in it would be lovely for you if you could get the chance to make some good progress with her.

Very true with regard to his longer term development, but keeping him "under" stopped him from instantly going into frenzy with fear separation which had been his (and ours/our neighbours'...) worst problem.

Hi Bevb, not suggesting that neutering is an issue for her, and in any case she's already been spayed as you say--more the issue of medication.

bevb,

Do you have an update? Was there anything relevant with the blood results? I hope all is well.

Hi there bevb

Can I say firstly how sorry I am to hear of your problems. Secondly I think you've got some great advice particularly from Teri and Freelancer uk.

Did the previous behaviourists suggest blood tests and vet checks, as really good ones will always suggest this purely as a routine due to simply being able to shut the door on them, so to speak :)

I wonder what the vet will say about the blood test? Please do give us an update. Regaring thyroid, I'd suggest doing a bit of a read up on the net about it as it is one of the things that some Uk vets seem to have a slight problem diagnosing correctly, perhaps due to the type of testing they use. Dr Jean Dodds is one to google and read from :)

I would say one thing - firstly the poor lass has had the most traumatic time initially and also reading between the lines a bit in your posts it seems she is wound up continually by "chavs" as you say encouraging their dogs to fight her from behind the front door (OMG, bless you, how do you put up with that?) and she gets wound up and aroused by other animals, people etc.

The thing is, some of what you say would seriously effect any dog - partly because they cannot relax, they are constantly guarding/checking/on lookout .... she has colitis  possibly due to this stress which is a physical manifestation of it, and when you go out she's been attacked quite a few times (I assume you mean more than just snapped at, you mean actual physical fights which last a few seconds or more?)

This would affect very seriously almost any dog - I feel that unless you can get the stress levels down and the triggers such as the chavs away, she will be extremely hard to help. She can't hear you most probably because physiologically her body is being taken over by fight/flight chemicals which are bathing her brain into intense reaction.

If there is some way to stop the chavs etc it would help I'm sure, also things like not allowing her to have access to windows she can bark from etc ... is your home open plan or are there separate quieter rooms you can all go in?

I think what I'm trying to say is that IMHO the environment is probably a large part of what is going on with Shady :) :) and unless it can be changed and her conditioned emotional reaction changed, there won't be much progress. I'd stay right away from punishment like spray collars as she has enough to be going on with - her behaviour is a manifestation of her emotions and you can't turn them off or force her to strap them down as she will no doubt suffer somehow internally with no outlet.

Sorry this is a bit rambling but I think the only way may be to help via:

Medical check ups (which you are in the process of doing)
Behaviourist and vet using medication which may help her to learn new things/ways of doing things
Working on her triggers and possibly somehow using conditioning to alter her emotional reaction.

Also do check your own reactions as she will to some extent take her cue from you. Dogs can even detect flared nostrils :)  They are so amazing.

I feel so much for you and Shady {{{{hug}}}

My fairly calm BSD got incredibly wound up when cats invaded her garden and it made her more barky and aroused with everything, even the postman whom she usually loved...it brought home to me how just a small bit of stress can wind a dog up something terrrible. (We have now sorted the cat problem so back to normal!).

Lindsay
xx

Hi Sorry I have been slow with an update but have been hectic then in hospital.
Blood tests were more or less normal something was slightly low but nothing really to worry about.
Vet is a bit mystified and concerned as her bloods showed normal kidney function yet her urine sample suggested otherwise.
I am going to see how she goes this week and then possibly take her in next week for a thyroid test and a scan.  I have just been discussing Jean Dodds along with other things on the phone with my vet this afternoon and I am going to email her what Jean dodds says.
Otherwise apart from when dogs appear walks have been fairly stress free since.
Behaviourists when out yes did ask for health checks which were done at the time.
I will keep you all updated with anything new i promise.
Thanks everyone for all your support.

Thanks for the update Bev, sorry to hear you've been in hospital.

Lindsay
x