correct me if im wrong, but arent long coat and white german shepherds non breed standard? an accredited breeder has bred some??

I don't think there is anything in the guidelines to prevent it and not sure that would be desirable either.  These variations are bred anyway so better they conform to the requirements of health testing etc.  Does that seem to be the case here?  If not I would report them to the KC.

> correct me if im wrong, but arent long coat and white german shepherds non breed standard? an accredited breeder has bred some??

Unless the standard has been changed very recently then yes, you are wrong, white and long hair is not against the standard. True white (albinos) are undesirable but the length of hair is not mentioned providing it is double coated it is within standard as no rule for the length is mentioned.

Actually there is mention :-).  It says:-

>No hard and fast rule for length of hair

Blues, livers, albinos, whites (i.e. almost pure white dogs with black noses) and near whites highly undesirable.

Outer coat consisting of straight, hard, close-lying hair as dense as possible; thick undercoat. Hair on head, ears, front of legs, paws and toes short; on back, longer and thicker; in some males forming slight ruff. Hair longer on back of legs as far down as pasterns and stifles and forming fairly thick trousers on hindquarters. No hard and fast rule for length of hair; mole-type coats undesirable.

It does quite clearly state that the coat on the head, ears, front of legs, paws & toes should be short & longcoated GSDs fail on this part, as do most of them on the straight, hard closely lying hair as dense as possible-few long coats if any have a truly hard coat & most have long hairs on their rear pasterns(below the hock joint)

So breeders who are breeding for one of the undesirable coat colours &/or longcoat are breeding against the breed standard

> It does quite clearly state that the coat on the head, ears, front of legs, paws & toes should be short & longcoated GSDs fail on this part

Actually I would say those areas usually are short even in long haired.
You have also edited out this bit:-

>Colour in itself is of secondary importance having no effect on character or fitness for work.

It may be working dogs this breeder is producing rather than those destined for the show ring.

> Actually I would say those areas usually are short even in long haired.

in fairness that photo is perhaps deceptive.  In my own long haired variety of my breed the hair to a casual observer may well appear short in those areas but when compared to the short haired variety in my breed it is very notably fluffier as well as longer all over the head and ears plus on feet and front of limbs.

Some years ago MM I regularly saw three Alsatians (all from the same breeder) at ringcraft which had clearly had their ears 'trimmed' as well as dubious scissor marks on their flanks and legs!

As far as I know there's no requirement for an accredited breeder to breed to any standard - just that they perform the required health tests (and ideally the recommended ones too) for breeding animals and rear the litter 'properly' (haven't time to check the actual wording, but you get my gist). I don't think they even have to register the puppies.

The aim is to get all puppies, of whatever parentage, responsibly reared so that the new owners get healthy dogs.

> in fairness that photo is perhaps deceptive.

True, and I am sure not all long haired specimens meet this criteria but I have certainly seen many myself that do.

> I don't think they even have to register the puppies.

I think you must have to as one of the requirements is to suppy registration documents.

That may be so at the moment, but I heard that ideally they'd (backed by MPs) like all breeders of all puppies to be accredited. I don't think breeding unregisterable puppies (accidental crosses, perhaps?) would have your accreditation revoked.

Certainly more than me - I've yet to see one which has the correct length of hair on the areas mentioned.  I'll look out for it - no shortage of long coats around these parts from many and varied sources and an amazing array of colours  too :-p

> That may be so at the moment, but I heard that ideally they'd (backed by MPs) like all breeders of all puppies to be accredited.

That would be good, although fat chance I think, but you would still need some form of registration to administer it wouldn't you?

> I don't think breeding unregisterable puppies (accidental crosses, perhaps?) would have your accreditation revoked.

No, but I don't think you could sell them under the scheme as you would not be able to meet that requirement....perhaps on the activities register. 

If you look at that photograph it is clear the dog has long hair on the rear pasterns & also around the ears & is also one of the undesirable colours.

I didn't"edit"anything out I quoted the colours that are "undesirable"here in the UK, but disqualifying colours everywhere else in the world. As is the coat type in the land of origin

Real working dogs(not those that do obedience/WT only)would not be longcoated either as they lack the all weather waterproof coat of the breed standard & this is why the number of longcoats that become real service dogs(as opposed to those that are in the various forces demonstration teams)is falling by the year.A quick glance at the BRS shows that police forces are using more & more Schutzhund stud dogs & at least one force has an imported brood bitch. I've never seen a GDBA longcoat GSD guidedog either come to think

> I've never seen a GDBA longcoat GSD guidedog

We have one in Keswick.  He accompanies his master to the George Hotel for a pint on many evenings.
I suppose it bothers me less, bits of hair here and there, because we routinely trim Cockers for the ring but, of course, the Kennel Club does not just register pedigrees for the show ring.

> We have one in Keswick.  He accompanies his master to the George Hotel for a pint on many evenings.
> I suppose it bothers me less, bits of hair here and there, because we routinely trim Cockers for the ring but, of course, the Kennel Club does not just register pedigrees for the show ring.

Why doesn't that surprise me ? ;-) We have lots of puppy walkers around here(& I do mean a lot)as well as Hearing dogs in training by the dozen(literally)none of the GSDs are longcoated & the last time I was speaking to someone involved with the breeding side they certainly told me they try to breed low maintenance type coats in their dogs which mean it is easy for the handlers to care for their dogs themselves

> Why doesn't that surprise me ?

I don't know.  Why?  Guide dogs are not all bred by the Society.

I think Nova meant the "measurement" was not mentioned :-)  Ie 2- 3 cms.

> I don't know.  Why?  Guide dogs are not all bred by the Societ

What society is that then  ? The GDBA is an association not a society, they acquire GSD puppies from breeder near me & not a longcoat in sight either

> The GDBA is an association not a society

I beg your pardon for my error :-)

> they acquire GSD puppies from breeder near me & not a longcoat in sight either

.....and how does that exclude another donating one?  Sometimes I wish we could draw Venn diagrams on here :-D

> I think Nova meant the "measurement" was not mentioned :-)  Ie 2- 3 cms

Yes I did, my point was that breeding long hair or cream dogs was not against the standard even if done deliberately. All breed will from time to time produce dogs that are not near the breed standard or even totally without type these traits are undesirable but allowed. In other words the dog is still a GSD and able to be registered as such.

I think breeders that deliberately breed a non-typey dog should be questioned as to their dedication to the breed but as the GSD standard says, "Colour in itself is of secondary importance having no effect on character or fitness for work" one can't blame a breeder breeding what the customer is asking for

Don't worry, Nova, I did understand that was what you were saying I just wished to add that the KC standard goes even further than not just stating a measurement by saying no rules apply.

my girls are long coated and i love the long coated more than the short :) ......

one can't blame a breeder breeding what the customer is asking for ...............and very happy they do nova :)

My gsd is all black and a longcoat all health tests required carried out  on his parents prior to mating by a very dedicated breeder and also bred to improve/produce brilliant temperments. I love the long coats  and as some one has said you cant blame a responsible breed for breeding what they and the customer are wanting.
I know I dont understand all the politics of the dog world but I am very happy to have a healthy happy beautiful looking dog .

>one can't blame a breeder breeding what the customer is asking for

Whatever !

I wonder if all these wonderful dogs have a fully health tested pedigree & if they were bred to improve the breed & not simply to supply non standard dogs to the pet owning public Nah why breed dogs that look like the breed they are, better to concentrate on the pretty coat & get mega bucks for the"rare"dogs

If the public wanted three legged dogs would it be ok to breed them ? Well if the customer wants one why not ? seems like a brilliant idea to me

> .....and how does that exclude another donating one?

These aren't donated puppies they are working bred GSDs that the GDBA actually purchase, because they are more healthy than their own lines !

If the public wants healthy puppies then it's only right that breeders should strive to produce them. Ideally they'll be bearing the breed standard in mind, but better a healthy mismark or other non-standard example than a sickly or crippled standard model.

Ok..............how does that exclude them getting a puppy from another breeder, either bought or donated?

I wonder if all these wonderful dogs have a fully health tested pedigree ...moonmaiden ....not all the dogs will have had full health tests just like ppl breeding a standed if there doing it just for money !!! ....so if you go to a breeder thats health tested dogs in there lines ,its no different to any good breeder ...and as for mega bucks lol lol lol ,the dogs are no different price then any other in the breed .....

Moonmaiden, you have me confused .........(okay - maybe that's not so hard to do these days ;) )

You said "none of the GSDs are longcoated & the last time I was speaking to someone involved with the breeding side they certainly told me they try to breed low maintenance type coats in their dogs"

and then "they acquire GSD puppies from breeder near me & not a longcoat in sight either"

Okay - I understand that - but thenyou go on to say "These aren't donated puppies they are working bred GSDs that the GDBA actually purchase, because they are more healthy than their own lines !"

If the latter is the case - then why on earth does the GBBA not breed from the lines they purchase in?

Confused of Essex

> not all the dogs will have had full health tests just like ppl breeding a standed if there doing it just for money !!!

Exactly.  Steered towards the Accredited Breeder scheme at least buyers should be able to find at least that.

i would never have a standard that looks so badly breed there legs look like frogs and have had no health tests done !!!

Hi white lilly

I'm not sure if I've followed your posts correctly - are your dogs from health tested stock or not?

> i would never have a standard that looks so badly breed there legs look like frogs and have had no health tests done !!

Who in their right minds would?

MM, I know of no standard that calls for 3 legged dogs, long coated and cream GSDs are within the standard and should be bred from health tested parents just like any other well bred dog.

hi teri yes my girls are from health tested stock ...clear eyes and 5.5 hips :) ....and the testing can go way back in the pedigree all tested and very good hips ....:)

I wonder if all these wonderful dogs have a fully health tested pedigree ........................

Teri was it this that confussed you ?

if so sorry i was repeating what moonmaiden had put :)

>Better to concentrate on the pretty coat & get mega bucks for the"rare"dogs

Good breeders have been known to use long coats in their breeding programme and long coats can throw short standard coats.   Coats are far from rare and providing the breeding pair are exceptional examples of the breed with good health tests and from healthy lineage, then I can't see the problem. 

BTW, the S.V is considering bringing the long stock coats back in.  I thought it already had been voted on and turned down but I was wrong!   It goes to a vote this summer.  They don't appear to think the coats are so far removed from the standard that it's not even worth considering.

Hi white lilly,

yes, I got confuddled with the addition of MM's quote.  Thanks :)

I support what whitelilly is saying , and yes my gsd is from parents with excellent hip scores etc haemophilla tested and the lineage traced back exactly as whitelillys dogs.

> hi teri yes my girls are from health tested stock ...clear eyes and 5.5 hips

No Haemophilia testing or elbows scored then ? I wouldn't want any GSD that didn't have a pedigree that had all the dogs having had all the health tests available done(depending on the age of some of the dogs in the pedigree & what tests were available at the time they were being bred from) plus of course working qualifications & that had passed the Korung. Anything less I wouldn't even consider if it was the last GSD on earth

> plus of course working qualifications & that had passed the Korung

I don't think that's likely to be a strong (or advisable) selling point to the average family pet owner MM.  Despite such dogs being trained and trainable to the highest levels of obedience it really sends out quite a different message to Joe Public IMO - or anyone without in depth knowledge of such things (which I include myself in as it happens as I'm no specialist).

Let's keep it real for the sake of anyone reading this whether today, 6 months or two years from now who is genuinely concerned about how to best go about sourcing a well bred dog that will be healthy, of good character and enjoy a long life.

> Anything less I wouldn't even consider if it was the last GSD on earth

That's just nasty to the person you're replying to MM.  Please bear in mind that when people are referring to their own dogs they clearly love them dearly and don't deserve to be picked on like that - however strongly you may feel about the breed

MM
yes Haemophilia testing and elbows are done :)

"plus of course working qualifications & that had passed the Korung"...........just wondering why you wouldnt have it if the last GSD in the world ????????

> just wondering why you wouldnt have it if the last GSD in the world ????????

pssst - You could be sorry you asked ;)  (off to batten down the hatches)

MM you are not a very nice person are you !!!!! i know nothing about korung ...but my 3year old is doing very well in her training and my 4month as just started she will also learn her training .....i think you just dont like this breed or are you just showing off

one can't blame a breeder breeding what the customer is asking for ...............

Yes that's what all the breeders of designer crosses and the puppy farmers say as well. REAL breeders breed for themselves and to improve the breed in equal measures, not to supply a demand. I think the great majority of us would love it if we could be guaranteed litters of just 2 pups all the time, so we didn't have to sell more than one. (Can't say just one pup as that would not be good for the puppy, but otherwise that would be even better.)

That may be so at the moment, but I heard that ideally they'd (backed by MPs) like all breeders of all puppies to be accredited.

No they back tracked on that, they don't want every person who breeds a litter to have to join the ABS, they want everyone who breeds a litter to adhere to the same standards of breeding by law.

> one can't blame a breeder breeding what the customer is asking for ...............
>
> Yes that's what all the breeders of designer crosses and the puppy farmers say as well. REAL breeders breed for themselves and to improve the breed in equal measures, not to supply a demand

Agreed Marianne except I would say 'good breeders' as opposed to 'real' ones - after all anyone who has produced pups under any circumstances is by that fact alone a breeder :(

Totally with you on the one or two pups scenario too - if only!

Teri I was thinking along the same lines as when you say what a real man would do, LOL. But I take your point. :)

Oh, don't even get me started on 'real men' :-D  Just kidding, I gotcha :)