I have just come back from a very stressful walk with Shady again.  Her fear aggression when out is getting very difficult to control.
Since being attacked several times as a youngster she became very fear aggresive towards dogs, she also turned aggresive towards small children ( I think she sees them as dogs or thier quick movements and noise frightens her).
I have worked and worked with her aggression and at one point we made some headway and managed to get her to accept a few older dogs who paid her no attention, but she has never progressed past those few dogs. 
She is also fear aggresive towards all traffic so just walking her down a road is becoming a nightmare as she is getting worse and weighing in at over 40kg I can barely hold her when she lunges.
She has always been a nervous nuerotic dog and the slightest sound outside at home sends her off into a mad barking frenzy and panic.
I have had two behaviourists out to her now and both despite thier efforts said it unfortunatly is just the sort of dog she is.
She has so much nervous energy though so needs to get out each day and i have tried planning my walks carefully and driving her places we hopefully can give her a stress free walk.  in the car she barks at everyone and everything we pass lunging at the windows, I tried covering the windows and she ripped it down in a frenzy to see outside. Twice a week I take a half hour drive to a 3.5acre fully fenced field I have to pay to hire to give her a good run on her own, but the days between that I now dread the walks.
Now she is starting to lunge at adults making a horrendous noise and today she even tried to get a man walking on the otherside of the country lane that she has seen reguarly since a youngster and always ignored.
Before anyone says its me or I havn't properly socialised her when she was a puppy I can assure you its not me (well I hope not) and she was extremely well socialised.  Carried in my arms out and about till after her jabs, taken to the school to meet children (although i don't have little ones of my own) but she has always had that nervy barky element.  My JRT was a pup at the same time as her and socialised exactly the same and he loves everyone and everything and hasn't a nasty bone in his body toward anything, just takes life in his stride and nothing phases him.
I have also owned many dogs over the last 35 years and when my husband was alive we used to show, breed and train dogs.  I have had many different breeds and NEVER had one with these problems. So its not like I am a first time owner without a clue.
Its breaking my heart with her as she is lovely with me and my 17yr old daughter, but i don't know how long I can manage to keep her out of trouble.  She has nearly cleared my 6' fencing round my small garden when she got a whiff of a cat outside, luckily I was there and pulled her back down so now she cannot go outside unless i am with her.
She is very well obedience trained and will work well until something upsets her or she sees something then it just goes out of the window.
I have to shut her away if my family pop round and its always a worry one of the grandchildren will open the door to where she is.  They never stop long because of this and I can't have my grandchildren for a day or evening ever for them.
If you have made it through this long post well done and sorry for burdening you but I just needed to talk and not bottle it up anymore.
Just edited to add Shady is a 4yr old Rottie x GSD not the dog in my avatar who is Milo my other dog.

I dont really know what to say, others will be along to give you some advice. All i can say is give yourself a pat on the back that you are dealing with the issues, not ignoring them and letting them get worse like many others do :-)
Also, even though you have seen 2 behaviourists, i would be looking to seek the advice of another. I am shocked and surprised that 2 profesionals said "that is just the sort of dog she is". That is not acceptable or helpful. She may be a challenging case, but one which a genuine behaviourist would love to get involved in so it may be worth asking around for a good behaviourist in your area.
Other than that all i can say is keep your chin up :-)

Sorry they did not say that lightly, one behavourist I have been in contact with for 2 years now, the other for 6 months for another opinion and neither have been able to make any headway.

ah bevb, calm down upsetting yourself won't help (easier said...)

you really need to get a behaviourist out to see your girl. We are working with one with tio at the moment and i must say its helped a lot already. in his case he is adorable with my partner and i but has shown aggression to other people on occassion and nervous behaviours and dog aggression. all of this is improving quite a lot with some minor changes.

don;t be upset when i say this, its in no way an attack but to a certain extent it probably is you, but inadvertantly. when tios behaviour started getting worse (following a major surgery for me) i got so nervous and upset whenever i was going to take him out and he knew it so got worse. if your feeling scared or worried (which you certainly sound, understandably) about taking out your girl she'll know that and become more fearful. when you recognise that it becomes easier to deal with.

the behaviourist suggested we get a mussle so i felt a bit more in control. having tried it and feeling less in control without his halti i've not gone a bit ott! in my case i now take tio (who is a very large bullmastiff) out on his collar and lead in one hand and a halti with a mussle over it in the other -belt and braces, he can't pull away with the halti, he couldn't hurt someone with the mussle and should the halti break or something i've his coller to. granted he looks like a death row prisoner the poor lad but i feel secure and as such so does he and things have gotten so so much better from such a small change. initially when i was still nervy i took a bit of rescue remedy to help calm me down. i can now walk him with him mostly very calm and not scared, he;ll ignore other dogs and people and walk beautifully.

he's also wearing a DAP collar now which has really helped him chill.

i'd honestly suggest seeing a behaviourist, it really does help and you'll get good advise on what you need to do to fix things.

sorry your so upset, take a moment to relax and calm down then call your vet and see if they can reccommend someone.

> Sorry they did not say that lightly, one behavourist I have been in contact with for 2 years now, the other for 6 months for another opinion and neither have been able to make any headway.

sorry i missed the bit about behaviourists- where did you find them? what measures did they suggest?

Have you looked at her diet & considered a more physical approach of T Touch ?

Hi Bev

it sounds quite a serious problem and one which realistically we can't 'cure' over the net - but you know that already and quite understandably just need somewhere to offload.

Some practical tips which you may already have in place:  Do you muzzle Shady when she's being walked and does she wear a headcollar?  If not, then I'd recommend both to give you more of a sense of control.  If practical, can you build a compound for her in the garden so that she is out and about when you have visitors but securely enclosed?  Also for car travel can you get her a travel crate and cover all sides with a blanket to prevent her reactions to passing traffic or pedestrians?

That you have faith in both behaviourists you've seen to date suggests that you don't feel it likely these problems can be overcome :(  Some dogs can't be changed or rehabilitated - they may be few and far between but, just as with people, some have psychological problems that none of the books, training courses and behaviour experts in their field have been able to make headway with.

As a footnote, but not said lightly, in view of the impact this behaviour is having on your life as a whole, do you really feel this unpredictable and escalating agression is something which you can realistically deal with for years to come?

Teri

bevb,

I'm so sorry to hear about your problems with Shady and that you are beating yourself up about it a bit. You are clearly an experienced dog owner and Milo's good temperament is evidence that you are unlikely to have contributed to Shady's problems.

I'm certain that you'll be aware of everything I am going to say, so this is meant as a sounding board, not a lesson.

Has Shady had a good medical work up and had bloods for thyroid, the test can be inconclusive but it is worth discussing possibility of thyroid in detail with your vet? If you have not done so it is also worth checking for any physical problems that could be causing pain, setting off a panic reactions and aggression, without you being aware. I would also suggest you discuss diet and see if a change helps at all.

Once medical issues are ruled out it means that it is likely to be behavioural or that she has been born with the dog equivalent of mental health problems. With regard to the latter it may be worth talking to the vet about this possibility, to see if medication might help her anxiety and aggression.

Finally, are you confident the two behaviourists you have seen were experienced enough? Did either ask you to keep a detailed diary of her behaviour? This can help to identify patterns and triggers- if there are any. 

I think you have to approach this step by step, ruling out possible factors in a systematic way. Most of all, don't assume that it is simply a behaviour issue, she may just be made this way and that is very unfortunate for you. That old adage there are no bad dogs only bad owners is, I think, damaging to people like you who are doing their best. Undoubtedly some dogs are born much less able to cope with life.

I hope you find some support in this, if not solace.

Oh I am sorry this is a problem that obviously is v. upsetting for you both. Like other writers have said it needs careful thought to ensure she does not harm anyone, a muzzle or halti type collar would give you more control.
Ive no suggestions, but I do feel sorry that this is so stressful you should be enjoying your grandchildren and dog's I hope you find your answer soon.

sorry i missed the bit about behaviourists- where did you find them? what measures did they suggest?

My main behaviourist I was reccomended by my vet, in fact all the local vets use her and she is very good and has really tried so hard.  She has even tried taking her out herself to see if she reacted differently without me present and sadly she didn't at all, and she had problems holding her.
Shady is walked in a halti harness using the front clip on the harness and a dogmatic headcollar, but she braces her neck rigidly against the headcollar so can still pull as hard when she gets going.
She does have a muzzle but is 10 times worse (if thats possible) when wearing it as I think she feels even more vunrable and she has got it off twice when trying to attack stooge dogs.
We have tried so many things from stooge dogs and just walking past with her on a loose lead in a controlled area, but she just got them.  Different Distraction tecqniques (sp), she won't be distracted with anything when she goes into this mode.  She has had herbal calming tablets and drops to no avail, she has had massage to try and calm her and other things we have done that I can't think off the top of my head.  But as soon as anyone or anything takes her out of her comfort zone she cannot see or hear anything anymore she just flips.
The dogs i was coping with the children I would avoid like the plague as I couldn't take risks with children but now its anything that moves literally.
We seemed to get so far with the keeping her in her comfort zone and relaxing chatting to people with dogs all on lead and was slowly getting her closer but then someone will come along with a dog off lead and despite being asked not to let it tear up to her they do because either they can't control it or as one woman yelled out don't worry he will give as good as he gets Grr and all the work goes back out of the window and your back to square one again as the confidence you built in her is shattered in moments.  Thats happened so many times now Shady just doesn't seem to trust another dog or want to try or be able to relax with them.
You are probably right that now I may be contributing to the problem as i do have to shorten her lead up when anyone or any dog or traffic approaches as with the weight and strength she has behind her she would pull me over if she could have the run of her lead to take off against or end up with me and her in the road under some veichle. She also has a habit of suddenly swinging round and tripping me up with her back legs.
I am just worried now she is going to bite someone or cause an accident and that will be her lot.
She has heard a child outside in the street as i am typing this and leapt up running frantically up and down whining then barking and has just lunged at the front door barking wildly.  i am definatly not at all stressed about it in the house as i know she can't do anyone any harm but ignoring or trying to distract doesn't make her any better and she is getting worse with this.  Its not a normal dog barking this is a real frantic stress thing.
All the normal things have been done as well like no on furniture etc etc to let her see I am in charge and she doesn't need to take care of me, but as i say she is very very obedient till stressed by something.

Have you looked at her diet & considered a more physical approach of T Touch ?
Diet is something I feel confident about as I have done exams in dog and cat nutrition.  Shady is not on what i class on paper as a good diet (tinned Chappie chicken and Rice)  but she streeses so much her tummy gets easily upset and she has held her weight and keeps a reasnoble settled tummy on this wheras everything else has caused her runny tum, hyped her more or she has lost silly amounts of weight on.

:( it does sound like you've tried lots of different things. you also sound very tired, it must be extremely wearing.

the DAP products might be worth a go and maybe see your vet about various health tests. other than that i can't think of anything else to suggest.

Have you had the food analysed to see what protein levels etc are in it ?

You wrote that you had tried T Touch & it didn't work, who was the practitioner you used ?

Hi Bev

it sounds quite a serious problem and one which realistically we can't 'cure' over the net - but you know that already and quite understandably just need somewhere to offload.

Some practical tips which you may already have in place:  Do you muzzle Shady when she's being walked and does she wear a headcollar?  If not, then I'd recommend both to give you more of a sense of control.  If practical, can you build a compound for her in the garden so that she is out and about when you have visitors but securely enclosed?  Also for car travel can you get her a travel crate and cover all sides with a blanket to prevent her reactions to passing traffic or pedestrians?

That you have faith in both behaviourists you've seen to date suggests that you don't feel it likely these problems can be overcome :-(  Some dogs can't be changed or rehabilitated - they may be few and far between but, just as with people, some have psychological problems that none of the books, training courses and behaviour experts in their field have been able to make headway with.

As a footnote, but not said lightly, in view of the impact this behaviour is having on your life as a whole, do you really feel this unpredictable and escalating agression is something which you can realistically deal with for years to come?

Teri

Teri you have worded things the way the behavourist did and I have failed to.  They said she has severe psychological problems that one had only seen a couple of times before and the other only once.  She goes blank to us when she has a fear trigger and nothing until that has gone can get her focus back to you, she is literally frantic and beside herself.
I don't know if I can deal with this for years to come, i don't know if she is even happy.  i have spent everypenny i have trying to help her and even sold stuff to pay for things for her.  I love her to bits, (excuse me something else has just set her off now) but she is not a dog i can just say ok well we will forget the walks and just keep her home, she stresses at walk time and wants to go out and if she doesn't she paces till she does.  I can't walk her with my other dog unless my friend comes with us so most days have to do the walks seperatly which takes nearly all morning.  I have suffered a broken finger and muscle injuries where she has suddenly lunged when i wasn't expecting it or hadn't seen what she had.
I would do anything for her I can, but now money is very tight i have spent thousands on her and have nothing left financially to give.
This is why I am upset I love her so much and just want to give her a good happy life and i know she adores me too she shows that in so many ways.  She is still stressing up and down now because people are about outside somewhere.  i also at the same time don't want her to cause anyone or anything any damage, i try to be a very responsible dog owner and it would mortify me if she actually managed to get away from me and cause harm. Especially being such a large powerful dog the damage she could do I don't even want to think about.

> i try to be a very responsible dog owner

i don't think anyone here needs convincing of that, you have given a lot to helping her.

bevb,

I'm so sorry to hear about your problems with Shady and that you are beating yourself up about it a bit. You are clearly an experienced dog owner and Milo's good temperament is evidence that you are unlikely to have contributed to Shady's problems.

I'm certain that you'll be aware of everything I am going to say, so this is meant as a sounding board, not a lesson.

Has Shady had a good medical work up and had bloods for thyroid, the test can be inconclusive but it is worth discussing possibility of thyroid in detail with your vet? If you have not done so it is also worth checking for any physical problems that could be causing pain, setting off a panic reactions and aggression, without you being aware. I would also suggest you discuss diet and see if a change helps at all.

Once medical issues are ruled out it means that it is likely to be behavioural or that she has been born with the dog equivalent of mental health problems. With regard to the latter it may be worth talking to the vet about this possibility, to see if medication might help her anxiety and aggression.

Finally, are you confident the two behaviourists you have seen were experienced enough? Did either ask you to keep a detailed diary of her behaviour? This can help to identify patterns and triggers- if there are any.

I think you have to approach this step by step, ruling out possible factors in a systematic way. Most of all, don't assume that it is simply a behaviour issue, she may just be made this way and that is very unfortunate for you. That old adage there are no bad dogs only bad owners is, I think, damaging to people like you who are doing their best. Undoubtedly some dogs are born much less able to cope with life.

I hope you find some support in this, if not solace.

Thankyou she has had many check ups with the vet because of her behaviour and blood tests but i don't think her thyroid has been checked so will try and see the vet this week and see about getting that done. All other checks have been clear.
Yes I was asked to keep a diary of her behaviour but it was constant daily on any noise or sound or sight of a dog, cat, furry animal, child or now adult too.
I believe it all stems from her breeding and where she was bred.  I took her from a scrap yard at barely 5 weeks old as the other pups in the litter had already been homed.  When i saw her she was the only pup and was being swung around by the her legs by the kids there and they had cut her tail off with a pair of scissors.  I was mortified as they were going to send her as an outside guard dog the next day to some people they knew.  I so felt for her i gave them some money to let me take her and give her a safe home. Eventually they agreed.  I have since found out two of the litter were destroyed by a year old because of thier uncertain temprements and another last i heard was on his 4th home but whether he is now dead too i don't know.
I have tried and tried to do as i said and give that home to her and that chance and her and i have a really close bond, it just so upsets me to see her still feel this way and behave this way to anyone or anything outside the family.  I hate to say it but must be realistic, she is despite everything and all i have put into her a dangerous dog and now i just have to try and protect her from herself.
She is fine with milo though and always has been, in fact he is the boss.  We did try to introduce last year another pup to our family but we had to let that go back it really messed shady up even more and she would have killed it.

You wrote that you had tried T Touch & it didn't work, who was the practitioner you used ?   No i havn't tried T touch and can't see where i said that.    She has had  Reiki massage done on her by a friend that does reiki (sp)

it does sound like you've tried lots of different things. you also sound very tired, it must be extremely wearing.

the DAP products might be worth a go and maybe see your vet about various health tests. other than that i can't think of anything else to suggest.

It is very hard work with her but I have always felt she is worth it. in many ways she can be very rewarding too and is so special to me.  more than anything though I am worried for her.
I am going to ring the vets in a moment and try and get her in for tomorrow to have another discussion and see what other health tests we can do to rule things out, like thyroid.  Believe it or not once we are past any dogs in the waiting room she is an angel for the vet.  Will discuss Dap products too as anything worth a try.

not really sure i have any more ideas than the others im struggling with aggression on my boy at the moment also, however its not fear aggression.
two thoughts have come to me would hydrotherapy work as this would exercise and let her use her mind with no triggers?
also is shady as bad with someone else walking her? just a thought that IF she is feeding off your anxiety this could be making her worse and maybe her being "treated" by another therapist you could see she was improving in their hands with them not being so anxiuos and if you could see an improvement with them, it would be then your turn to return YOUR confidence?
just a thought??

bevb,

When she goes into aggressing mode does she at any point appear to come to, as though she snaps out of the behaviour? You mention that one of your behaviourists said that she goes blank- is this another way of saying she absolutely cannot get through to her, or that she appears to be in an altered state and then comes to? I only ask because some vets and behaviourists think there is a link between types of so-called "rage syndrome" and thyroid problems. Also does she sometimes react when you least expect it or can you consistently predict her reaction to any stimuli?  

Bevb,

You are one strong lady who hasn't given up on your dog where many i guess probably would of. The determination in you is strong and i applaud you for this.
I can't understand what you are going through, thought i have read through this thread and taken everything on board and i appreciate what a difficult time this is for you.

I prey that you find a positive solution to this and that both you, Shady and Milo can start to live a more peaceful life together as a family.

Let us know how you get on with the vets and the thyroid tests.

Big hugs

Sue

not really sure i have any more ideas than the others im struggling with aggression on my boy at the moment also, however its not fear aggression.
two thoughts have come to me would hydrotherapy work as this would exercise and let her use her mind with no triggers?
also is shady as bad with someone else walking her? just a thought that IF she is feeding off your anxiety this could be making her worse and maybe her being "treated" by another therapist you could see she was improving in their hands with them not being so anxiuos and if you could see an improvement with them, it would be then your turn to return YOUR confidence?
just a thought??
Hydotherapy may be an idea if i can find something locally and cheap enough now as i really have run out of money and rhings are extremely tight now.
Yes shady is the same whoever walks her, man or woman it makes no difference, a dog trainer i know tried her out with him as he was convinced it was me and said he had never seen anything quite lose the plot like she did, there was no getting through to her when she went into one on the sight of a dog.

I think that you're being very responsible facing up to the way things are and that Shady may not be happy, finding life too stressful, taking into account her need for physical and mental stimulation.

I know that many think that owners should keep trying endlessly, but I have never felt like that.  You have made all reasonable effort (I would actually say more than reasonable effort!) to help Shady - because you care.  But sometimes, just sometimes, there are some dogs that even the very best behaviourists just can't help.  It's tough, very tough, and sometimes the right decisions can be very hard.  :(

is she insured? surely he insurance will pay for things like that?

Ah You simply put massage & I assumed it was animal orientated T Touch.

TBH She is probably one of the worse crosses of two breeds that can be bred, I very much doubt both parents had good temperaments not good breeding behind them. We had such a cross come to our training club, sadly the owner wasn't putting into his dog as much as he should have done & his dog had very little in the way of canine body language knowledge. He wasn't overtly aggressive, he was very headstrong & if he continued to grow up the way he was developing, he will by now be a danger to the public, because his owner had no control over him at all.

I'm not saying that this dog is the same as your bitch, but when I was asked my advice on such a litter I advised having the puppies PTS as both parents were very high prey drive dogs & would not have made pets or even good working dogs. This was also the advice of their bitch & the litter was PTS shortly after they were born.

It is impossible to help you over the net & without seeing your dog's behaviour & what triggers it & what defines her safe space. I presume you have had her sight checked ?

Hi again Bev,

there is an outside chance of a medical problem even although she's been examined before.  Perhaps thyroid should be checked, even if done before have it re-checked.  Has she had an eye exam?  Sometimes in unexplained aggression there is an issue with sight - OTOH sometimes close inspection of the eyes can reveal a tumour on or pressing on the brain.  Forgive me for being blunt, but you could be throwing money at a problem which is not a behavioural one at all but a medical one that may not be within anyone's powers to resolve :(

I really feel for you here as it's obvious that you're devoted to this dog as your companion as much as you're dedicated to keeping others safe from her - it's a horrible situation for you from any angle as things stand at present.

Speak again with your vet about tests which s/he can do and also think carefully if any of the safety measures suggested can make life for both you and Shady more relaxed.

I realise right now you're feeling very fragile, and who could blame you :(  If you want to chat any time, I'll gladly lend an ear if you just pm your phone number.
{{{hugs}}} Teri x 

bevb,

When she goes into aggressing mode does she at any point appear to come to, as though she snaps out of the behaviour? You mention that one of your behaviourists said that she goes blank- is this another way of saying she absolutely cannot get through to her, or that she appears to be in an altered state and then comes to? I only ask because some vets and behaviourists think there is a link between types of so-called "rage syndrome" and thyroid problems. Also does she sometimes react when you least expect it or can you consistently predict her reaction to any stimuli?

You can't get through to her when she is reacting to something she is just so focused on that she hears and sees nothing you say or do. When that goes out of site or sound she reverts back to daft as a brush, loving Shady
She always reacts to the same things, dogs or anything furry, children, (at all times outside or indoors and just hearing them), traffic (when out along the road) and now adults when out and about or when they walk past or hang around near the house. She has always been fine with adults that come into the house.

Bevb,

You are one strong lady who hasn't given up on your dog where many i guess probably would of. The determination in you is strong and i applaud you for this.
I can't understand what you are going through, thought i have read through this thread and taken everything on board and i appreciate what a difficult time this is for you.

I prey that you find a positive solution to this and that both you, Shady and Milo can start to live a more peaceful life together as a family.

Let us know how you get on with the vets and the thyroid tests.

Big hugs

Sue

Hi Sue,
No i am not strong i just love my girl to bits and want her to have a normal life and its breaking my heart to find i am struggling so much just to walk her now i don't know if it will be possible to keep my promises to her.
Its now i need that magic wand to be waved.
Will keep you updated about the tests.

i feel for you bevb , you must be going out your mind :( ....i carnt help in any way ...i just want to send you lots of love and a hug xx

I think that you're being very responsible facing up to the way things are and that Shady may not be happy, finding life too stressful, taking into account her need for physical and mental stimulation.

I know that many think that owners should keep trying endlessly, but I have never felt like that.  You have made all reasonable effort (I would actually say more than reasonable effort!) to help Shady - because you care.  But sometimes, just sometimes, there are some dogs that even the very best behaviourists just can't help.  It's tough, very tough, and sometimes the right decisions can be very hard.  :-(

I know what your saying and i have tried and there are some more suggestions medically today i will try, but like all owners I know my dog best and if i ever felt i couldn't manage her to give her any quality of life or I find there is something terminally medically wrong with her then I would have her put to sleep i would never pass her on to anyone. I think that is apart from not being fair to anyone else not fair to her and her mental stability.  Everyone that meets her has commented in the loving way she looks up at me.

> No i am not strong i just love my girl to bits

We can all see you love your girl and i do believe that you are strong to keep going like this, you may not believe it or see it yourself. There would of been people who would of weakened or tired and given up the fight a long time ago and you keep going trying different ways to try and find a solution.

Can i ask do you live where your profile says you do?If so i hope some local posters will read this and may be able to help with a cheap pool not too far away from you. I know of a pool near me which does swimming and hydro. For a simple swimming in the pool session its only £10 a time, i have been told(not yet been myself). That is if you live near the A24 in the Sussex/Surrey border area.

I just want to come and see you now and give you a good hug and send you off to a spa for the day for some good old TLC.

bevb,

I've just seen your reply and from what you say, it does sound as though there is a strong genetic component at play. I fear too being away from her mum at such an early stage will not have helped developmentally, though I can appreciate you absolutely had no choice. Nonethless, cruelly treated rescue pups can still grow into adult dogs that are trustworthy and able to withstand the slings and arrows etc..

I'm reluctant to advise you to spend more money but thyroid may worth ruling out for your peace of mind, it is also heritable and with her Rottie genes she is one of the breeds more associated with thyroid.

You could also talk to your vet about pharmacological intervention. The problem there is that you probably don't want to disinhibit her as this could make her more aggressive. But it is worth discussing available options with your vet and with the most experienced behaviourist.

This is the only life she knows and you have done everything possible to help. If nothing else works and she, as it appears from the little you say, is getting worse, then you must consider yourself and the rest of your family. Sometimes, there are no more options. A person with these problems would be locked away for reasons of safety. Unfortunately we cannot do that with a dog.

I hope I do not sound cruel or harsh. I have been in your position and have a very clear understanding of the emotional toll on one's life as well as the horrendous financial cost involved. I do hope that further investigations reveal something. I would add that one of the most valuable things pointed out to me was that with any behavioural issue to be treated by modification one has to be able to identify clear triggers. If triggers are inconsistent or involve just about everything then we have to look for reasons elsewhere- medical or genetic.   

TBH She is probably one of the worse crosses of two breeds that can be bred, I very much doubt both parents had good temperaments not good breeding behind them. We had such a cross come to our training club, sadly the owner wasn't putting into his dog as much as he should have done & his dog had very little in the way of canine body language knowledge. He wasn't overtly aggressive, he was very headstrong & if he continued to grow up the way he was developing, he will by now be a danger to the public, because his owner had no control over him at all.

I'm not saying that this dog is the same as your bitch, but when I was asked my advice on such a litter I advised having the puppies PTS as both parents were very high prey drive dogs & would not have made pets or even good working dogs. This was also the advice of their bitch & the litter was PTS shortly after they were born.

It is impossible to help you over the net & without seeing your dog's behaviour & what triggers it & what defines her safe space. I presume you have had her sight checked ?

I agree regards the breeding and would never have chosen this breeding as a choice.  But I have owned GSD.s Dobies and other large breeds and couldn't just leave her to god knows what future or what she was going through there either despite her cross of bloodlines.  I just wanted to give her a chance and I'm just upset as i feel i am failing her.
I havn't actually had her sight checked but she always seems to have very good sight as can spot something very quickly in the far distance.  i will ask for a sight check though just to rule it out. Thanks for suggesting that.

Hi again Bev,

there is an outside chance of a medical problem even although she's been examined before.  Perhaps thyroid should be checked, even if done before have it re-checked.  Has she had an eye exam?  Sometimes in unexplained aggression there is an issue with sight - OTOH sometimes close inspection of the eyes can reveal a tumour on or pressing on the brain.  Forgive me for being blunt, but you could be throwing money at a problem which is not a behavioural one at all but a medical one that may not be within anyone's powers to resolve :-(

I really feel for you here as it's obvious that you're devoted to this dog as your companion as much as you're dedicated to keeping others safe from her - it's a horrible situation for you from any angle as things stand at present.

Speak again with your vet about tests which s/he can do and also think carefully if any of the safety measures suggested can make life for both you and Shady more relaxed.

I realise right now you're feeling very fragile, and who could blame you :-(  If you want to chat any time, I'll gladly lend an ear if you just pm your phone number.
{{{hugs}}} Teri x 

Hi Teri,
I am going to speak about thyroid and eyes tomorrow.
Your right i am extremely devoted to her but I also have to be resposible for what she is capable of with others.
Thanks will pm my number to you soon, going to give milo and Shady a little game in the garden now as they both look a bit bored with mummy sitting on this computer ignoring them.

We can all see you love your girl and i do believe that you are strong to keep going like this, you may not believe it or see it yourself. There would of been people who would of weakened or tired and given up the fight a long time ago and you keep going trying different ways to try and find a solution.

Can i ask do you live where your profile says you do?If so i hope some local posters will read this and may be able to help with a cheap pool not too far away from you. I know of a pool near me which does swimming and hydro. For a simple swimming in the pool session its only £10 a time, i have been told(not yet been myself). That is if you live near the A24 in the Sussex/Surrey border area.

I just want to come and see you now and give you a good hug and send you off to a spa for the day for some good old TLC.

LOL havn't looked at my profile for a while I don't think so if it has an area that i live then yes thats right.  Sadly i am not near Surrey sussex border, but if your ever this way your always welcome to pop round for a visit.

bevb,

I see in your reply to another poster that it seems you can predict triggers with accuracy? In this case, and given that she is fine in the house and with you etc.., you might explore appropriate pharmocological intervention to support behavioural modification. In other words damping down her reactions to triggers enough that she doesn't blank out and the behaviourist can get through to her.  You need to discuss this option with your vet and with your behaviourist. If neither have experience of this then ask for help to find someone who does. Finally, would your insurance help?

Everyone that meets her has commented in the loving way she looks up at me.
Makes it VERY hard, doesn't it?  Sending you a hug. :)

I said what I said because I have a friend with a rescued GSD x Dobe.  She was on death row at the rescue centre, having been homed and returned 3 times and my friend was her last chance.  She is just the most wonderful companion for him at home and looks at him in the same way. :)  But outside she is a liabilty, not an asset and 2 very highly respected behaviourists have tried with her and said that they can do no more and even they wouldn't accept the responsibilty of walking her.  With a selection of just about every walking aid on the market, because of her weight and her strength, her owner can barely restrain her when she 'goes' and he wraps the lead around the nearest lamppost/telegraph post but I fear the day when there isn't one near or his attention lapses for a second ....... :(  He won't even consider the alternative and blames other dogs, their owners or children ......... :(

Thankyou all for your lovely words and help.   I am not being rude but my doggies want a game with mummy now and have given up waiting patiently for me to get off this funny thing i keep tapping on.
I will return when they have both had a little fun and games with me.

Bev x

I'm back, it was too wet and slipperyfor them to be chasing toys i throw, so put Shady through a couple of dance routines i have been teaching her and then done the hide a treat under a cup and find which one its hidden under  (they are both too quick and good at that one) so hid some treats under a towel so they had to work out how to get it off to get the treats. Done a quick bit of training and then hid a treat im my slippers they had to find and get out.
They still want to have a charging about game though but just to slippy and one will more than likely break a leg if i allow it as when i threw  one toy Shadys legs slid in all directions as she tried to run for it.

I wish i could find an isolated spot nearby to walk Shady where other owners would not allow there dogs to come charging up to her.
I think she lets out fear vibes because despite all her barking and being fierce they will ignore milo and make a beeline for her unphased and will just not leave her alone or try to attack her back.

Just to let you know Shady is booked in to see my vet at 10.40 in the morning.
Thanks everyone.

> You are probably right that now I may be contributing to the problem as i do have to shorten her lead up when anyone or any dog or traffic approaches as with the weight and strength she has behind her she would pull me over if she could have the run of her lead to take off against or end up with me and her in the road under some veichle. She also has a habit of suddenly swinging round and tripping me up with her back legs.

I walk Buster (approx 70kg) using 3 leads - a very thin lead on his halti, a lead on his collar and a lead on a chest harness. The halti lead is just hooked over my little finger, it's only there as a last resort if I need to 'steer' his head. He's not aggressive but can get excited still when meeting people, also he's just learning to be more comfortable around traffic he would spook & bolt away draging me with him, however now I use the combination of halti, collar & harness I can keep hold of him if he were to pull/lunge/bolt. The harness gives me control of his body so it can't knock into the back of my legs and he can't spin around in circles with excitement.
A harness is woth a try (in addition to the collar), it should help stop her being able to swing her body around and knock you over, so that should help with your confidence too.

Hi bevb, you probably had it checked already but my first GSD used to get panic attacks when he would 'switch off' to treats toys touch praise reprimand and anything else you can name, he proved to have very low blood-calcium levels due to non functioning para-thyroid gland, the vet had been in practice for about 25 years and had only seen 1 case before in a dog, he was put onto collocal-D (mega dose to start with) and it worked, I had to keep juggling the dose as extra stress made the level alter but it did work. May be worth a check if it hasn't been done.
Chris
ps hope you come up with something positive after all your work

I have Friends with a dobe bitch who is like Jekyll and Hyde.

An absolute sweetie at home, great with the kids who were born after she was adult, and reliable and friendly to all visitors.

From her first season onward she started showing fear aggression toward other dogs, this progressed to people and anything unexpected.

The owners are very experienced with the breed having owned both rescues and dogs from pups, 6 so far.

It is almost as if she has agoraphobia.

She was well and extensively socialised, even shown as a youngster but things just progressively got worse.

Now they simply accept that this is how she is.  She is walked muzzled and on a head-collar when it is quiet avoiding people and dogs.  Road walking only each day.

At home she is Happy as Larry (even with visiting canines as long as she can meet them in an unconfined space first) and I think is about 7 now.

I walk Buster (approx 70kg) using 3 leads - a very thin lead on his halti, a lead on his collar and a lead on a chest harness. The halti lead is just hooked over my little finger, it's only there as a last resort if I need to 'steer' his head. He's not aggressive but can get excited still when meeting people, also he's just learning to be more comfortable around traffic he would spook & bolt away draging me with him, however now I use the combination of halti, collar & harness I can keep hold of him if he were to pull/lunge/bolt. The harness gives me control of his body so it can't knock into the back of my legs and he can't spin around in circles with excitement.
A harness is woth a try (in addition to the collar), it should help stop her being able to swing her body around and knock you over, so that should help with your confidence too.

I already walk her with two leads one on the front ring of her halti harness and one on her dogmatic headcollar.
Her neck goes rigid making it difficult to turn her head when she sets off after something or someone.

Hi bevb, you probably had it checked already but my first GSD used to get panic attacks when he would 'switch off' to treats toys touch praise reprimand and anything else you can name, he proved to have very low blood-calcium levels due to non functioning para-thyroid gland, the vet had been in practice for about 25 years and had only seen 1 case before in a dog, he was put onto collocal-D (mega dose to start with) and it worked, I had to keep juggling the dose as extra stress made the level alter but it did work. May be worth a check if it hasn't been done.
Chris
ps hope you come up with something positive after all your work

Thanks I will check with the vet tomorrow whether this has been checked or not.

I have Friends with a dobe bitch who is like Jekyll and Hyde.

An absolute sweetie at home, great with the kids who were born after she was adult, and reliable and friendly to all visitors.

From her first season onward she started showing fear aggression toward other dogs, this progressed to people and anything unexpected.

The owners are very experienced with the breed having owned both rescues and dogs from pups, 6 so far.

It is almost as if she has agoraphobia.

She was well and extensively socialised, even shown as a youngster but things just progressively got worse.

Now they simply accept that this is how she is.  She is walked muzzled and on a head-collar when it is quiet avoiding people and dogs.  Road walking only each day.

At home she is Happy as Larry (even with visiting canines as long as she can meet them in an unconfined space first) and I think is about 7 now.

I am sorry to hear about your friends dobe, although it is heartwarming to hear of someone else with a well socialised girlie that has sadly gone this way.  Thankyou for telling me about her as so many people think a dog that behaves this way is a reflection on how the owner has bought them up.
Although my girl is lovely with my daughter and i and visitors and has never shown any aggression there, she is still very nuerotic in the house and we are definetly relaxed indoors but slightest sound outside and she will bark, pace and whine frantically.  She managed to impale her foot on a piece of wood that scraped down off my door as she leapt at it and had to have emergency surgery to remove it.

I said what I said because I have a friend with a rescued GSD x Dobe.  She was on death row at the rescue centre, having been homed and returned 3 times and my friend was her last chance.  She is just the most wonderful companion for him at home and looks at him in the same way. :-)  But outside she is a liabilty, not an asset and 2 very highly respected behaviourists have tried with her and said that they can do no more and even they wouldn't accept the responsibilty of walking her.  With a selection of just about every walking aid on the market, because of her weight and her strength, her owner can barely restrain her when she 'goes' and he wraps the lead around the nearest lamppost/telegraph post but I fear the day when there isn't one near or his attention lapses for a second ....... :-(  He won't even consider the alternative and blames other dogs, their owners or children ......... :-(

It is very hard, but you can't blame others its up to your friend and i to try and plan walks where we won't endanger others.  I will admit some dog owners who are intent on just letting thier dog rush up to yours don't help and while I try at all times to keep my girl under control, if someone is letting thier dog jump all over her even though they have been warned then there is no more i can do.

People locally who know me cannot believe i go to so much trouble to try and give her a walk away from problems and pay to hire somewhere half hour drive away to give her a run twice a week in safety.
If i could afford to I would take her there everyday and then i would have no problems and her stress levels would be greatly reduced.

if someone is letting thier dog jump all over her even though they have been warned then there is no more i can do.

I agree but it's you and Shady that get distressed by it! :(  Not a pleasure if you are on guard everytime you go out for a walk. :( 
I really feel for you. :)

I agree but it's you and Shady that get distressed by it! :-(  Not a pleasure if you are on guard everytime you go out for a walk. :-(
I really feel for you. :-)

Thats exactly right it sets Shady right back on any little progress we made at all.  I just wish owners would keep thier dogs in sight so they know what they are doing and if they see a dog on a lead not allow thiers to come charging over, without checking first, I would have thought that was just good manners but not many seem to do it, unless they know Shady and i then they keep thier dogs with them or slip them on a lead just while they go past.

There is no way my Friends would walk their bitch anywhere dogs may be off lead.  It is strictly pavement pounding and crossing the road if another person or dog come in view.

So there is no longer any issue with dogs running up to her.  It just isn't worth the stress to try and walk her anywhere else.