Hi just looking for any advice guys.
I have a nearly 3yr old male, i bought him as a 1 yr old as he been returned to the breeder as the previous owners were unable to cope.
initially everything was fine, but slowly he started to show agression to me and my partner, sometimes completely randomly, he could be in his bed and we could go and stroke him and he would growl and get this "look" in his eyes. now usually i am a great believer of leave a dog alone thats in a bed (we all need time out) but if he happens to be in the bed near the t.v that needs to be turned over we used to get growled at. He is also VERY food aggressive.
Now at this point i have to point out i have 3 bitches also and he is firmly at the bottom of the pack, as he is with any other dog he meets, he initially trys to dominate but quickly gets told what the situation is.
I had him castrated last august as this was his last chance as when he goes he means it and i was concerned it was escalating. He has improved so much since he was castrated but we still have big problems with food. he is worse when he is fed meat, so that is cut out unless its a special occasion, he gets fed after me and my partner, and gets fed last in the pecking order of the other dogs, i make him lie down and wait before i let him eat, which he may or may not growl and snarl at me i make him wait until he stops and so good boy go to which he then will start to eat and as soon as he has his food he growls again!!!!!!! 
In every other aspect he is the most fantastic dog, never fights with the others, perfect 100% recall, great on the lead, in the car even on public transport when the car is full, he even makes sure im ok in the bath and comes to watch me  :(
He is such a lovely dog in every other way but his food aggression.
does anyone have any suggestions?

are you sure its food aggression and not generalised growling when he cant get his way over resources?
have you been to your vet to rule out a medical reason and get a referral to a behaviourist?
it isnt safe or reliable to advise re aggression without meeting the dog in its own environment

yeh the vet has checked him over just before we made the decision to castrate, he is insured but i very very recently made a claim on him so would preferably like to leave it a bit longer before the vet refers him to a behaviourist. it is 99% over food sometime and really not very ofetn compared to what he was like if you ask him to do something sit, paw etc... he will also growl and snarl then, yet othertimes he is only to happy to oblige.
i have tried everything i have spoken to a behaviourist at a rescue over the phone who reccommended a rattle bottle which i have used but dont really like as it scares the other dogs at the same time.
i even chuck him outside for a cool off usually for 15 minutes then ask for a sit, paw etc... if he does this without a grumble he comes in all is forgotten if he grumbles he stays out for aother 15 mins and so on. however i cant really do this whilst he is eating.

did the vet check for thyroid levels?
pain? arthritis?

you would still need a behaviorist to assess the problem in the home
it would be dangerous for anyone to advise you blind

these organisations have behaviourists:
UKRCB
APBC

dont go down the franchise route

> i have spoken to a behaviourist at a rescue over the phone who reccommended a rattle bottle which i have used but dont really like as it scares the other dogs at the same time.

I know that advice over a forum on a serious issue like this is really not the way to go, but, to my mind, this sort of agreession needs trust & respect to overcome (along with the correct training), aversives such as a rattle bottle will only make things worse.

You need to get in touch with a reputable behaviourist who will assess your dogs behaviour on what they can see for thierselfs.

ok, thanks. looks as if it will have to go down that lane. its such a shame he has this issue, in every other way he is such a nice dog

another reason to get a behaviourist at home is that the growling over food and other situations may be symptoms of another problem, not to do with food etc per se.
for example, maybe your boy is stressed?
may be he feels stressed by the other dogs or lack of space or current routines or type of exercise?
maybe it is to do with his previous upbringing?
his breed type?
diet?
all sorts of things really

> we still have big problems with food. he is worse when he is fed meat, so that is cut out unless its a special occasion, he gets fed after me and my partner, and gets fed last in the pecking order of the other dogs, i make him lie down and wait before i let him eat,

Why are you doing this ? & what do you want to achieve by doing this ?

Are you trying to establish a "Pack order"with the humans as the "Alphas" ?

i was advised to do this by who i cant remember. It means he has to wait until I say he can have it.
With regard to if it works or not, well yes it does to a point he stops growling and he gets his dinner, ie dont growl and you will get it, rather than what i used to do was growl and still get dinner.
And yes i do want to establish a pack order when we went to a training class it was suggested that the way he is with me he see's me has one of his bitches, so that means he is higher than me.

that wouldn't make any sense.
because if he did see you as "one of his bitches" (doubtful), then as you say he is "firmly at the bottom of the pack" of your other 3 bitches and "any other dog he meets", then wouldnt that mean he would think he is lower than you?

well thats the thing, he does try to dominate but gets short shrift with them, and always ends up at the bottom, and no he doesnt like to be told to do something that he doesnt want to do, HOWEVER since he was castrated he is like a different dog as anything could have triggered him beforehand whereas now it is 99% food orientated and only very very rarely when i ask him to do something.

It sounds as if he's not certain that his food is actually his - that he fears it might be taken away at any time so he needs to guard it. Where does he eat? Is it within sight of the other dogs? Do you hover around while he's eating? Personally I'd put his food down in a private place and shut the door so that he's alone and feels entirely safe to eat in peace. Once he's more relaxed about his meals you can start accustoming him to your presence by giving him food, and never taking it away.

> And yes i do want to establish a pack order when we went to a training class it was suggested that the way he is with me he see's me has one of his bitches, so that means he is higher than me.

Sorry but that is a total load of rubbish-dogs do not see humans as part of their"pack"& have no wish to be dominant over them either.

Whoever told you that this is the way to lessen food"aggression"If it really was working he wouldn't be growling period !

He needs positive reinforcement, not negative enforcement. He needs not to be concerned about humans & food, to see humans as a source of food, as a provider. Unlike the CM & JF followers eating first does not reinforce the pack order, in the wild, the lowest/youngest members eat first not last.

My advice(not that it's worth anything of course)is to go back to basics. Hold the food dish in your hand & drop food into it a small portion at a time, until he has had his meal. Gradually increase the portions you put in the bowl & gradually lower the bowl until eventually it is on the floor & you are trickling the food in all in one portion. Do not expect your dog to wait to eat-this isn't naturally-allow him to eat as you are adding food to the bowl. He will(if this is done consistently)learn that humans & food bowls is a good think & that they provide food & don't take it away. If this is achieved your dog will respect you as his provider & source of reward.

> It sounds as if he's not certain that his food is actually his - that he fears it might be taken away at any time so he needs to guard it. Where does he eat? Is it within sight of the other dogs? Do you hover around while he's eating? Personally I'd put his food down in a private place and shut the door so that he's alone and feels entirely safe to eat in peace. Once he's more relaxed about his meals you can start accustoming him to your presence by giving him food, and never taking it away.

We have 7 dogs, fed together, there is a mixture of dogs and bitches, there fed outside, some in the garden, garage, and left alone to eat, I watch from the door, incase of someone stealing the others, my 3 BT's are fed in doors, I think he has a problem with space, he has none to eat in, hence growling at you, put his food down outside and leave him alone to eat!!

truly dominant dogs are just that.
that dont need to posture and challenge.
and females are usually dominant over males.
dogs dont see humans as dogs anyway

the theory you have been given doesnt really add up.
aside form the contradiction i mentioned above, how would this person explain his growling at your husband?
would your husband be viewed as "one of his bitches"?
this sort of stuff is usually a one size fits all answer, when the situation is usually more unique and the dynamics usually more multi-layered than that.
meaning the whole picture needs looking at.

their could be many reaosns why your boy behaves as he does?
my own instinct at this stage is the stress of living with 3 female Great Danes is taking its toll?
is your home limited by space? does your boy have somewhere he can go for sanctuary?

just a thought - you still need a behaviourist to witness all this stuff for real.

> He will(if this is done consistently)learn that humans & food bowls is a good think & that they provide food & don't take it away. If this is achieved your dog will respect you as his provider & source of reward.

i will certainly give that a go, but i have never given him something then taken it away, i do wonder if this has happened in his old home though as he was with teenagers and the reason he was rehomed was they  "didnt like dog hair and drool"

however just to ask you a question as i actually do believe they see us as part of the pack this is why, a dog thinks like a dog so even though it may know we arent dogs surely it can only reason like a dog, a dog cant see us as a person and think i will treat that person like a person as they dont know how we think. also if i was to be attacked by someone i have no doubt i would be protected by them so surely i am part of the pack?

this is just a question, i will in fact try what you have suggested as the situation at the moment i do need suggestions

he eats alone in the hall, he cant see anyone, nobody can see him, i can feed him outside but i feel that is removing part of his problem rather than solving it (does that make sense?)

> I think he has a problem with space, he has none to eat in, hence growling at you, put his food down outside and leave him alone to eat!!

I don't think it's a question of space, my dog can happily eat his food anywhere, with me and/or the kids around him, I can even be sat next to him sorting my washing out while the cat's behind him dapping his tail - he isn't phased in the slightest as he trusts us.
Moonmaidens advice is about working on trust - if the dog has trust it can feel secure with his food and should not feel the need to growl at his owner.

Hi mahonc

I read this shortly after you posted and was thinking about it while I was out.

As with other suggestions, to me having a recommended behaviourist assess your lad in your own home and in his usual conditions (when other dogs are/not around, over meals being prepared and given out etc, body language dog and human) is an *absolute must*.  Agression can't be safely assessed over the web and often the owner themself is too close to a problem to fully identify the genuine trigger(s).

Something I think is worth mentioning is the 'status' within your pack relating not only to this boy but your views on how you should somehow be alpha over him.  The human element here is a very flawed theory, but looking at it from the canine side only here's my experience.

I've had a multi dog household for almost 20 years and in that time there's been no outright leader among them in all situations.  Equally no outright bottom of the pecking order either.  It changes with different situations and different resources etc as it also does with ages of the dogs concerned.

If much of this is genuinely about food, then IMO you are exacerbating the problem by making him wait last and also having to 'perform'.  If he's already over anxious and frustrated about where the next meal's coming from you are building on that frustration.

Instead perhaps try feeding him first and separately from the others whether in another room, outside or behind a gate.  Let him know his food is safe from them and he doesn't have to be vocal to protect it.  Personally I'd for eg have him in the kitchen with me without the other dogs, and while filling the bowls throw him the occasional piece of food.  When ready to 'serve' I'd give his first and let him eat it undisturbed.  The growling when pre-empting the putting down of his meal could have by now become habit forming ....

All that said,  you still do need to get outside professional help to assess the bigger picture.

regards, Teri

he eats alone in the hall, he cant see anyone, nobody can see him, i can feed him outside but i feel that is removing part of his problem rather than solving it (does that make sense?)

not really

if a dog were stressed to eat in front of another dog, why is not feeding it separately to be regarded as a solution? for example, *if* the presence of other dogs and/or people is the trigger that causes the stress which causes the 'behaviour prob' of growling, then wouldnt removing the trigger be the solution to the behaviour prob?

besides, 50% of training/behaviour solutions are to do with management strategies, not changing the way the dog 'thinks'

with regards to my other half he does still behave in this manner but less so, but any amount of aggression is too much.
i dont have a huge house but there are several different rooms they can go in with either beds or a crate that is more secluded, also i leave the back door open should they wish to go in the garden.
Although the girls dont tolerate his attempt at dominance i have to say they are very calm with him, they dont bully him i often think they are too relaxed sometimes and then he geta a sharp telling off from them, but nothing to be alarmed at nothing more than a look or a grumble.
I have even thought well maybe he isnt getting enough stimulation and needs to be tired out but that isnt the case as apart from my oldest girl he has the least energy than all of them.

im just stumped i have tried different things and am willing to ake suggestions until i think i can get e refferal for a behaviourist

> however just to ask you a question as i actually do believe they see us as part of the pack this is why, a dog thinks like a dog so even though it may know we arent dogs surely it can only reason like a dog, a dog cant see us as a person and think i will treat that person like a person as they dont know how we think

Dogs interact with body language & no matter how we try we cannot perfectly reproduce a dogs body language. Dogs learn by repetition & reward, this is why the clicker works, the dog does something you click & reward, the dog learns that the behaviour it has performed gets a reward & so will repeat it.

If dogs saw humans as part & parcel of their"pack"they would be including in the breeding pack as well. My young dog is going though his puberty & whilst the older dogs will not tolerate him trying anything(including my in season bitch(silent season))he turns his attention to the cats, who he perceives as part of the "pack" mind you he gets told off by them as well. He doesn't turn his attentions to me & has never "hu,ped"anything that isn't canine or feline !

> if a dog were stressed to eat in front of another dog, why is not feeding it separately to be regarded as a solution? for example, *if* the presence of other dogs and/or people is the trigger that causes the stress which causes the 'behaviour prob' of growling, then wouldnt removing the trigger be the solution to the behaviour prob?

I agree that if the 'trigger' is the presence of another dog, then feeding away from other dogs is good management. However, if the 'trigger' is the owner, I would prefer to address the underlying reason for the 'trigger' - ie, lack of trust, it is no good for the dog to feel like he has to defend his meal just because the owner is putting his bowl down for him and it's also a dangerous situation for the owner.

totally agree with that

which, hopefully, is where a good behaviourist will come in

Yes, with a rescue you don't know what went on before they came to you and the root of the problem may lie there.  I personalyl think it sounds like a lack of trust and, perhaps, the previous owners didnt treat him very well.  However, pack theory doesnt seem to be working (which I'm not surprised about!) so I would suggest that you try what the others have said ie "manage" the situation until you can get a "good" behaviourist to come and assess him.  Don't put yourself in danger or make the dog tense, it will only cause problems with your relationship.  If you don't know why he's doing this then defo get a behaviourist in to see if they can make sense of it.

Good luck
Kingdom