Hi guys,

I have 2 Sibes (one entire male 4 years and one entire female at 2 1/2yrs) and a 11 month old entire Mal pup.

Now everything has been dandy up till the last month or so but it has been worse the last week or so. Kai the Mal is very timid with new people and will hide, bark and run away etc but eventually say after an hour come and see them sniff and then chill out. And apart from that in the house he is absolutely dandy...out walking he is terrified of everything....loud noises...strange things etc. He has always been exposed to everything from a young age but has just always been very nervous, except around other animals. He loves animals...dogs, cats, birds...he wants to play with them all and is evry friendly/gentle with them giving his size.

Now the problem is his aggression in the house. I have increasingly noticed lil snarling and warnings flashed at the other dogs in situations where he appears to be guarding me or food/toys. He gets a stern no everytime this happens and at first he took the hint but now that he is getting to a very difficult age he is not listening anymore and has on probably 5 or 6 occassions went for my other male Niko and once or twice Mya. Blood is drawn but its Kai's and he has several scars on his muzzle from this.

I'm getting very concerned with the ferocity of his attacks on Niko (Niko is less than half his weight and 4" shorter. And the latest altracation this evening was broken up momentarily but Kai actually kept trying to get to Niko despite me grabbing his collar and hawling him off him. If Niko had ran Kai would have chased him down) I really don't know how to approach it best. Niko will be getting neutered very shortly and obviously I'm hoping this will help the issue but also really worried that it won't as I wont get Kai done till he has fully matured at around 2. (Mya will follow suit after her next litter)

Any other suggestions?

Kelly

its a both a territorial thing and a pack thing that is happening, the Mal pup is coming of age and the older dog is most probably the 2nd dominant pack leader and so the younger dog is challenging the dominant dog in the pack status, you of course are the pack leader and should remain at this status, you also have a bitch and this will cause problems with two dogs that are not neutered, so the two male dogs are trying to establish who is the most dominant and will start to fight, the younger one is also challenging your dominance as he is no longer listening to you.

I would suggest getting both dogs neutered at the same time if you don't intend to stud them, this should calm things down a bit but if you are going to use one of them for stud, then you will have to neuter the least dominant dog or keep them apart when unsupervised!

IMO you need a reputable person in to see interactions between you, your dogs, the environment, etc

Kai the Mal is very timid with new people and will hide, bark and run away etc but eventually say after an hour come and see them sniff and then chill out. And apart from that in the house he is absolutely dandy...out walking he is terrified of everything....loud noises...strange things etc. He has always been exposed to everything from a young age but has just always been very nervous, except around other animals.

When socialised, did he have any bad experiences (ie being chased by another dog). Also is it possible he was "overfaced" in the sense that he was kind of pushed a bit to be social when he would hve preferred to go slower? Just wondering as it's possible to improve on this a bit with work usually, but you do have to be proactive and also a bit careful :)

Re the aggression, saying  No won't help - it may make him think you are stressed or even agreeing with him as your voice may sound aggressive to him :)
Dogs can aggress for many different reasons, eg a hidden medical problem, resource guarding etc not necessarily anything to do with pack (although it can be related to the relationships between dogs in the family depending on what exactly is happening).  I personally never use dominance or pack theory to solve behaviour problems.

The reason I mention earlier about his social experiences is because sometimes aggression and also fearful behaviour can be linked to hypothyroidism. Now, please don't get worried as it may not be anything to do with it, but it may be that if you don't get any fairly quick improvement with help, you may want to research about it (see Dr Jean Dodds) and talk it over with vet and behaviourist just to ensure this is one door that could be closed after tests, if necessary :)

In the first instance I'd suggest you contact:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/regions.php

to get assessment and advice :)

Hth and good luck

Lindsay
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> IMO you need a reputable person in to see interactions between you, your dogs, the environment, etc

couldn't agree more.

> Kai the Mal is very timid with new people and will hide, bark and run away etc but eventually say after an hour come and see them sniff and then chill out. And apart from that in the house he is absolutely dandy...out walking he is terrified of everything....loud noises...strange things etc. He has always been exposed to everything from a young age but has just always been very nervous, except around other animals.
>

he sounds very much like my tio who is nervous of everything. this has graduated to various aggressive actions. we have been seeing a behaviourist and it has been helping, obviously it's going to take time. one of the things he has recommended is to use the DAP products (dog appeasing pheremone) and they have helped a bit, he has a collar and the diffuser. they couldn't hurt but could help a lot (make sure you buy the big sized collar!)

All good advice...thanks guys.

There has been no traumatic events as a pup...well not in my prescence anyways but I cant speak for the first 8 weeks of his life.

I was thinking about getting his thyroid checked just to be on the safe side as I'd rather rule it out. As for the neutering...he is or at least was going to be studded but now I'm a little wary about doing this given the situation.

Mal's are very stubborn by nature and do test their boundaries so it could just be that.....I just want to be on the safe side. First and foremost Niko will get neutered and I will build on his confidence issues as well as his dominance in the house.

Shall keep you updated!

Thanks again,

Kelly

Hi,

Regardless of the aggression side of it this dog really shouldn't be used for breeding.  He sounds far too nervous and that really isn't a gene that wants to be passed on, especially given that he has always been like this and there has been no event to cause the fearfulness, it is likely at least in part to be genetic.  Sorry I know you weren't asking for an opinion on this, but dogs really need to be os sound temprement as well as health to be considered for breeding :-)

> I was thinking about getting his thyroid checked just to be on the safe side as I'd rather rule it out. As for the neutering...he is or at least was going to be studded but now I'm a little wary about doing this given the situation.
>

i think having a vet have a look might be an idea. if your looking for a behaviourist they might be able to reccommend one as well (ours actually is one of our vets so its worked out quite well- we did a walk together and he looked at our boys bad leg at the same time). i wouldn;t consider neutering till he's mature as it comes with its own problems, neutering can also detrimentally effect behaviour depending on the problem.

as has also been said though i would think very seriously about whether you wanted to use him at stud, its not a trait you want to risk passing on i'm sure.

I'm not convinced it is personality trait to be perfectly honest as I met his mother, father and grand mother and all were absolutely fantastic.

I am more of the oppinion that something has given him a real fright when younger and knocked his confidence....I forgot he was in kennels for 2 weeks when he was relatively young so the more i think about it the more i think it could have been then that something happened.

Needless to say nothing will be happening till I get to the root of the problem or he "grows out" of it as I know it can be a typial Mal trait (especially unneutered males). I have no intentions of having him done till at least 2 1/2 possibly even 3 but in the meantime will be getting him checked out

Thanks again guys

Oh I forgot to add in some other details that may be relevant...let me know what you think.

Kai went for Niko again tonight....or so I thought. It was Niko that made the first move (verbal but right in Kai's face) and I think it might actually be him causing the issues. I'm just so used to him being very laid back and "poofy" for want of a better term lol. It's as if Niko is baiting him and is like come on then and growls at him then Kai takes the bait.

Kai has several little nicks along his muzzle/lip...it's always him that comes off worse, not a single mark on Niko. So i'm now thinking it may be Kai challenging Niko's position but Niko isn't willing to back down and goes for Kai and Kai doesnt retaliate just makes lots of noise and it "looks" bad. Now I know dogs show their submissiveness by putting their muzzle in the more dominant dog's mouth and normally the other dog doesnt bite down...so I'm thinking is a case of neither willing to back down that is causing the issues.

And in theory Niko loosing his man-hood might solve this problem...is this at all a viable assesment?

And in theory Niko loosing his man-hood might solve this problem...is this at all a viable assesment?

Sometimes it can help, but to be honest I'd advise anyone unless very well up in behaviour to get in a reputable professional to assess and give their opinion. Purely because although it may all be very straightforward, it also may be something totally different to what you as an owner may think - for example, what if it's nothing to do with hormones/age etc but is all about resource guarding or some other trigger?

Sorry if that sounds a negative post, it's not meant to be :) just trying to be as honest as I can.

best wishes
Lindsay

No no i don't take that as a negative post at all...I posted for opinions :) I mean I know its impossible to diagnose issues like that without actually being here but I'm just after an overall idea based on the information I provide.

I won't be making any decisions lightly and will seek professional advice

Thanks,

Kelly

Lots of luck Kelly - come back and let us know how it goes? It's always useful to get "feedback" as it were :)

Lindsay
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