Honestly, with all the furore about so many pet dogs being obese, you'd think 'they' could find a more worthwhile target than people who keep their dogs' weight down!
News item.
But no, it's just another way to snipe at show dogs and their cruel owners.

I could have guessed that Dogs Today would be involved! :( 

Argggghhh, this makes me so mad. I don't show, but if I turned up at the vets with my dog even being 2lb over weight (and that's not much over weight in relation to his size), my vet would give me a right telling off, he's insistent that the leaner side of a healthy weight is always better than the chubby side of a healthy weight!!!

It's saddening to think that articles like this only strengthen the mis-guided notion that a lean dog is an unhealthy, malnourished dog :(

By the looks of it they have picked up on the article in the Kennel Gazette and added their own twist to things :(

Do these people have nothing better to do with their time than scour the dog press for articles they can twist into something sinister, and they call themselves journalists. Tut Tut, l find it funny however that they never seem to pick up on any of the positve developments, or take an article and put a positive slant on things.

Just to add our own resident journo excepted :)

Is Dogs Today not a recommended read then? Its just that I bought it for the first this month and was surprised to see Joe Ingles encouraging people to buy crossbreed pups.

Sounds about right! :(  If you Google the editor's name, you'll see the controversy that she's been involved with over the years. :(

>Is Dogs Today not a recommended read then?

'Your Dog' is a more balanced read.

Absolutely - a slightly underweight dog is infinitely preferable to an overweight one. But this IS nevertheless a welfare issue because some of the dogs are being starved for up to two days before a show and, more seriously, some dogs are being withheld water on warm/hot days so that they don't exceed the limit. The reason it's been highlighted is that we were contacted by several top mini-dax exhibitors (inc committee members) following the programme who are deeply concerned about the dogs' welfare but have been unable to effect change from within. A group of them have written to the KC pleading with them to stop the weighing. Many say it's too easy to get totally obsessive about the whole weighing thing, even when they really love their dogs (as of course the majority do). Don't forget this isn't being done for any higher motive - it's purely to win a rosette.

Judge Andrew Brace himself reported that 75 per cent of the dachshunds he judged recently were too thin.

It's the only breed that's weighed and they are not weighed in any other country. The breed clubs say they want to ensure the dogs stay as minatures not standards and I can understand that, but the issue here, surely, is chest circumference if anything as we all know that weight varies on body/bone density. The KC has banned the scales at Crufts because of the potential welfare issue and it would be doing the right thing if it stopped it at all other shows too.

I promise we're not using it to beat up the KC or the show-world - it's to address a genuine welfare concern.

> But this IS nevertheless a welfare issue because some of the dogs are being starved for up to two days before a show and, more seriously, some dogs are being withheld water on warm/hot days so that they don't exceed the limit.

you mention testimonials to this in the article- may i ask what the RSPCA have said if/when this was reported? did they conduct and investigation? denying a dog water is one of the things they will act upon.

Just a thought:
if Andrew Brace said that 75% of the dachshunds he has judges recentely at a show were underweight why did he not withold 75% of the placeings?

indeed, or mention to their owners that they seemed underweight?

> Judge Andrew Brace himself reported that 75 per cent of the dachshunds he judged recently were too thin.

This surprises me.  I have judged over 300 Dachshunds and have seen two or three at the most underweight miniatures - and they were hardly starvation cases.  I have, however, seen more underweight standard Dachs.  So that argument doesn't really hold water does it.  I'm judging at the Dachshund Club Show this coming weekend so I'll have a look at all the poor thin starved dogs there - after all, the vast majority of them should be (at least 75%) if peoples' statistics and the headlines are anything to go by.....

Debs

> The reason it's been highlighted is that we were contacted by several top mini-dax exhibitors (inc committee members) following the programme who are deeply concerned about the dogs' welfare but have been unable to effect change from within. A group of them have written to the KC pleading with them to stop the weighing. Many say it's too easy to get totally obsessive about the whole weighing thing, even when they really love their dogs (as of course the majority do). Don't forget this isn't being done for any higher motive - it's purely to win a rosette.
>

So if show breeders do it to win a rosette, why do others do it? I have seen a lot of very underweight dogs from working and pet homes. Some so much so I really wanted to give the poor dog a meal. I have seen working gundogs and working collies under weight. Certainly if it had been a puppy farmers dog I would not expect better, but some of these dogs were vey much loved by their owners.

I also wonder how these things come about? For example when at Crufts two or three years ago I saw somebody cutting hair from the back of the flatcoats neck! I asked why they were doing it and they said it is to make the neck look longer, which all rather puzzled me as I thought the breed standard to which most FCR judges stick to says that minimal tidying of the ears and feet is all a FCR should have. Now we are seeing flatcoats with staved necks! A trait from Scandinavia. So could it be that this alleged bad practice is passed from one breeder to another? My friend always had Dachs always had two standard and two mini, I can never ever recall her ever starving her dogs nor denying them water. If at a show she thought a nearby dog was thirsty she would gets it some water. Nobody ever complained at all. The majority thanked her for being so diligent in caring for all the dogs not just her own.

I haven't judged anywhere near the amount you have Debs but the minis I have judged were absolutely fine, in fact I had a couple that were slightly overweight to look at though still under 11lb. Probably 75% of young borzois are underweight, and have their owners trying everything in the world to put body on them, they're still very healthy and body up given time :-)

I'd love to know where the Shows are that offer prize money!!!??? :-o Puppy stakes etc yes, but not usual classes! It doesn't take much to jump on a band wagon does it? I have never seen any exaplmes of complaints either? Am I missing something somewhere??

I have also seen some working gundogs to me that are extremely underweight but the gundog fraternity say that they are healthy.  You can see their ribs, hip bones etc very clearly.  I must admit though that the same breed to me inthe show world is way to overweight, so in reality who is right?

I don't know if they've tried it but Autarky was great for putting some meat on Storm, even where the Nutro and other expensive kibble failed!

They'll be saying that Afghans are thin because you can see their pin bones next!  But I bet they couldn't catch them when they run! :)

Just to say...I would raise hell if someone gave my dog water at a Show! A) they shouldn't need it, they are not dehydrated, B) they might want a piddle in the ring and C) They don't know what's been added to the water! There are still some very mean and underhand people about...by the way, mine would never NEED anyone to give them water as I don't leave them on their own anyways...I would never leave a dog alone on benching, if they go into the Van, their cages they have water in bowls there..

At shows, I regularly offer my dogs water (brought from home) and then put the bowl away again so that it doesn't get spilt.  They rarely drink any but observers who didn't see me might well think that they hadn't been offered any.

Well the last time I left a non spill bowl under the benching at Manchester Ch show it disappeared! And I don't think Storm hid it anywhere!

"Absolutely - a slightly underweight dog is infinitely preferable to an overweight one. "

So why stirring about slightly underweight dogs rather than using your company to raise awareness on the obese pet dogs out there?  Wouldn't that be more worthwhile? 

My partner's GWP used to get very thin in the working season.  He tried everything to get the weight back on but couldn't.  We used to call him a size O!!!!  LOL I prefer to keep my dogs on the lean side TBH.  They do have a better life and have more energy!

Kingdom

Ummm...here's a question for the Telegraph....if Mini Dachs are sooo horrifically underweight, and there's soooo many of them underweight...how come they couldn't find one to have as the accompanying photo?  There's no mention of Chinese Crested in the article.

There's a picture of a very nice little dachsie in the 'real' paper, but it's become evident over the years that breed identification is beyond most people - some even have problems recognising a labrador!

maybe they picked it because the crested does look a bit like a fashion model? (lol to me anyway, the flowing feathery hair cut and slinky frame). it's not terribly skinny though, looks like it has a comfortable covering.

> There's a picture of a very nice little dachsie in the 'real' paper, but it's become evident over the years that breed identification is beyond most people - some even have problems recognising a labrador!

LOL tell me about it...my field spaniel is apparently "an unusual coloured golden retriever" - eek!

Is the Mini Dachs in the real paper skinny? I bet it's not...

> I promise we're not using it to beat up the KC or the show-world - it's to address a genuine welfare concern.

Of course it is Jemima I believe what you write just as I also believe in fairies at the bottom of my garden.

One of my Cavaliers had a slight health problem & when we saw the vet(from Australia)she was shocked at the state of our dog-no not because he was fat & overweight(which she was expecting)but that he was so slim & well muscled(including strong second thigh muscles) & that he was 5 years old & still weighing the same as he did when he was 2. No heart problems(& 4 years later he still has no heart problems & still weighs the same) She had never seen such a fit & healthy Cavalier(except to his small problem which can affect all dogs whether pedigree or not)although she did add he was the first show Cavalier she had ever seen !

A friend has Mini Dachshunds & hers are certainly not starved to meet the 11 lb limit-they get exercised alongside her Cesky Terriers & hubby's working gundogs. They keep they weight down with exercise & being the correct size & they always look in the best of health(& they also always self whelp BTW). She did rescue a mini who had been starved in a pet home & it didn't take her long to get him looking lovely already to go to his forever home, his temperament was wonderful & he is now a very healthy 10.76 lbs in weight & walks miles every day with his devoted owners.

Andrew was judging Mini Longs & this is what he wrote
"I am well aware of the strength of feeling of the Miniature people about the need to maintain the scales, but I believe that this is not helping the breed one bit as about 75 per cent of the dogs I judged were shown far too thin for their frames. If many of them were Smooths they would never have been put in the ring, but having coat disguises lack of body quite significantly.

I am sure that, with the pressures being put on the KC in the area of health and welfare, that the scales will go, and soon, so breeders will then have to address the problem of producing dogs of the correct size that carry optimum bodyweight - and it can be done, as my CC winners proved, both being small, well boned, typical, balanced and carrying superb body covering.
Miniature Dachshund people need to know what they - and the KC - are up against as at this show someone who is co-operating with the producer of Pedigree Dogs Exposed emailed the KC the day after to complain about undernourished dogs being put up at this particular show and nothing done about it. Beware - the person you may be chatting to at ringside may be there with just one agenda in mind.."

Not quite the same as you quoted is it you never mentioned that they were actually Mini Longs !! Your program got a mention too Jemima !-pity you seem to have overlooked that bit too

Jemima - IF you have REAL evidence of people starving their dogs to make the weight and IF you REALLY are concerned for the welfare of these dogs why not pass your information to the KC and breed clubs and demand they deal with the people doing this? Or can they carry on starving their dogs until you make another TV programme?

Grrrr this makes me so mad !!!! my ess looked like a size 0 after working for awhile !! she would eat but the amout of energy she as she would burn it all , id have a healthy dog full of life then a fat dog not wanting to move about !!!!!

I spoke with my vet recently and he said 'I never make any money from slim dogs it's the fat ones that eat up the owners bank ballance', a joke I am sure but whowever it does ring true.

echo ... your right :) its the same for us being over weight only bring health problems , so why should it be any differnet for dogs !!!

Which bit of "75 per cent of the dogs were far too thin" do you not understand, Moonmaiden?  This wasn't me, it was a very well known judge.

Andrew only judged the mini-longs so those were the only ones he could comment on. It does sound like the problem may be worse in the mini-longs but there are undoubtedly some skinny mini-wires and smooths.  Again, being slim is undoubtedly a good thing for a dachshund, but no one should withhold water.

Yes, I understand a complaint was put in to RSPCA following the South Wales Show.

Our first instinct was to keep this story for the sequel. We then became convinced that there was enough of a problem to try to get some change now so I contacted the KC. Their response was a statement a couple of weeks ago saying they would still not ban the scales - instead they would ensure that water bowls would be placed ring-side. As others have said, very few owners are going to let their dogs drink from a communal bowl - too great a risk of infection - and it's easy to avoid the bowls if you don't want your dog to drink.

I really do think this is a welfare issue - sure, not an enormous one in the greater scheme of things.  But even if only a few dogs are affected, it's unnecessary and could be resolved by banning the scales. Again, the KC has banned them from Crufts for this very reason. If it's good enough for Crufts, surely it's good enough for all other shows, too?

Although personally I have never even judged one underweight dachshund, I don't have a huge experience of them. I've never heard of anybody withholding water but then I suppose they wouldn't brag about it.

I'm going to stick my neck out and agree with you on this point Jemima - scales maybe should be banned, just in case one misguided owner is starving their dog  :-)

> Our first instinct was to keep this story for the sequel.

>I really do think this is a welfare issue - sure, not an enormous one in the greater scheme of things.  But even if only a few dogs are affected, it's unnecessary and could be resolved by banning the scales.

Yer I bet it was after all it has another go at show dogs & the KC doesn't it ? You are so devoted to the welfare of dogs aren't you. Only the KC dogs that are shown of course,not the ones that have nothing to do with the KC that are bred to death, that die as puppies & are kept in squalor like the ones shown on the other program last week of course.

There were 62 entries & no placings were withheld-if Andrew was so concerned why didn't he withhold the placings from the dogs that were too thin as it is a fault in the breed standard"Miniature ideal weight; 4.5kgs (10lbs). Desired maximum weight 5kgs (11lbs). Exhibits which appear thin and undernourished should be severely penalised so he should only have placed 15 dogs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While you are at it have a go at the Hunt hounds, they were through our village again a few days ago & look disgusting thin & smelt to high heaven-Oh no that wouldn't be good TV as they have nothing to do with dog shows & the KC & of course must be fit for purpose as they can still chase & kill

easy MM, no need to 'set' Jemima on hunt hounds....the poor things get enough hassle already!

> no need to 'set' Jemima on hunt hounds

She won't bother as they are not KC reg show dogs are they ?

"While you are at it have a go at the Hunt hounds, they were through our village again a few days ago & look disgusting thin & smelt to high heaven-Oh no that wouldn't be good TV as they have nothing to do with dog shows & the KC & of course must be fit for purpose as they can still chase & kill"

So did YOU report them? I appreciate not easy to do, but I really do think I would if I was concerned. I get very upset about any kind of mistreatment - whhether they're showdogs or working dogs or the local mutt. And I agree, some working-dog handlers are very hard on their dogs. Our local hounds are slim but certainly not thin, and they do not smell so I would suggest something could be wrong in this case.

So if it's sooo bad, why not name and shame or send the 'findings' of 'welfare issues' to the official bodies that could or should do something about these underweight dogs?
I don't get it, I really don't.  Jemima if you're so concerned about animal welfare, why not try a different tack?
Target the people that really don't give two hoots about animal welfare. 
Is there really that much evidence pointing toward people starving their dogs for 2 days before Crufts?  Or should that read not feeding their dogs for 2 days? 
Or is it like some people's idea's of breed standards - overexaggeration?

>Or should that read not feeding their dogs for 2 days? 

Isn't that what happens in nature? Wild canids don't eat every day, and indeed there's a theory that pet dogs should have a fast day every week for their health.

> So did YOU report them?

Yes I did, but as the local RSPCA inspector is a member I doubt anything will happen. Yours would smell if they are transported by horsebox for an hour for "trail"hunting on common land !

> I'm judging at the Dachshund Club Show this coming weekend so I'll have a look at all the poor thin starved dogs there - after all, the vast majority of them should be (at least 75%) if peoples' statistics and the headlines are anything to go by.....
>

Oh Debs, if I had been drinking a cup of tea at the time I read this, I'd be cleaning the monitor screen.........you couldn't get much drier could you?   ;-)   LOL!

Just what evidence do you have Jemima and just what evidence have you given to either the Kennel Club or The Dachshund Club?

Sorry have to agree..if stopping the weighing helps ONE dog who has been deprived of water/food then it has to be a good thing.
I know little about the breed so cannot coment but can see that in the hunt for that coveted rosette a few (Very few) people may resort to this! Many breeds have a size limit and all are expected to be fit so why can't the judges aply the same standards to Dachsies without recourse to weighing them. A good judge worth his salt will be able to tell by eye if the dog is correct in size and weight (Aprox) without having to use the scales
Aileen

Today Iwas at a local show, mini longs were weighed. My mentor breeds them.
She felt my dog, A different breed and said...'shes far too thin'. She then showed me the difference between the fat/ skin over the ribs between mine and hers, it was markedly different. I felt bad and will make an effort to fatten up my girl a bit.
Her minis are small compared to others that are fatter and generally bigger, but the weight between them is a couple of pounds the others just dont cut it, they should be so much smaller than the standards. (my friend has both).
She would certainly not deprive them of either food or water, maybe it should be on girth rahter than weight.

Karen

Why do certain folk pick on pedigree dogs? Surely it is a welfare issue is a dog is overweight and there are many of them! Why not enlighten the general public of the health issues that they are inflicting on their dogs instead of nit picking the dog show world?

> I have seen working gundogs and working collies under weight

Me too!  In my work I do see an awful lot of working Collies, and I cringe at some of them.  Before anyone asks, no I do not like them overweight.  I watch my BC's weight very carefully, and my own vet will candidly tell me if he thinks a dog needs to lose weight when he does the annual health check.  But there is a great difference in me keeping my BC looking good, and fighting fit, and the working dogs that are so boney you can actually see the ribs and have no need to handle the dog to see it's malnourished.

> Well the last time I left a non spill bowl under the benching at Manchester Ch show it disappeared! And I don't think Storm hid it anywhere!

LOL!!!!!!

i must say that my girls ribs carnt be seen shes just very fit :)