BBC reporting on puppy farming?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ht44f

Not sure though if it's quite being done the right way....but it is being done!

Hmmm

Wonder if it's got anything to do with the films made by Byd ar Bedwar about puppy farming?  and the comparisons regarding the BBC and 'that' programme?

I have just seen clips from the Rogue Traders and they claim the RSPCA made the secret film for the programme, but the scenes shown were the same ones on the ITV programme Byd ar Bedwar!!!!! I have the original discs here from the programme maker Sian Morgan!

Mmmm, interesting. First analysis: a rush job in the weeks leading up to Crufts to show that the BBC is balanced in its approach to canine welfare after all. Or am I being cynical?

its stressing me out already, all they are going on about is making sure a puppy is vaccinated before you buy it

lets hope they make a point at the end of where you should buy a puppy from and what you should be looking out for - cant see it though :(

> lets hope they make a point at the end of where you should buy a puppy from

From a rescue, where the very best of vets have checked them over apparently. 

I didn't like that dog being on the back of the bike.  If he had dropped that bike I can't see it could possibly have gotten away without losing its head! :-(

Glad I'm not the only one worried about that, too many vets want to revaccinate a pup when their new owners take them for that vital first check up and am pretty sure my vet will be really pleased to know that 'some of the best vets in the business' are working and checking recuse dogs not those in private practise then?

Am stunned the RSPCA didn't find Parvo at the Lakeside kennels after 2 pups had died, the petshop comply with all relavant legislations really?  Can't believe how much shite is coming our way as pedigree show breeders when puppies are dying daily from such horrific places and the authorities allow it to continue!

It was better than nothing but so much more advice could have been given.As that cocker puppy had inherited eye disease they should have stressed the importance of only buying from breeders who health test.It was strangely hard-hitting though just because it was done in such a flippant way.
And the advice at the end about getting a dog from a rescue centre was just so predictable,wasn't it?

Think Carmarthen council might have to do a bit more then! Whelan finally got looked at, a place we have had bother with for more years than I care to think about.

Typical RSPCA total rush job and nigh on useless! Why didn't they say to these people who want a pedigree puppy Ask to see health cerificates... or go via the Kennel Club or breed club...

Oh dear I forgot we are all busy faking our health testing results and breeding mutants! Such a good opportunity yet again squandered by the BBC, makes me wonder why I am paying a licence!

Does anybody watch the BBC any more? Perhaps on Sunday of Crufts we should all avoid watching any BBC chanel in protest?

The RSPCA need a rocket up there xxxx. Those places were horrible . you only had to look at them to know they should be closed down.

I was in a bad mood when I got in from work anyway - my OH told me to watch that so I could rant at the tv instead of him ;)

I missed the first bit but managed to catch the rest.

Why is it so important that a pup has vaccinations?? Most pups i know go to their homes at 7-8 weeks, so its up to the owners to sort that out.

I felt my eyes welling up when they said that the poor cav had to be pts due to parvo.. What a horrible man who bred him, so aggressive as well.
That poor Jack as well, what is up with people treating animals like this

I would of thought that the local councils should and would keep a close eye on puppy farms as they grant the licence and do random spot checks with the RSPCA and check them thoroughly.

Such a good opportunity yet again squandered by the BBC, makes me wonder why I am paying a licence!

I agree, a total waste of an opportunity to educate.  They said always see the pup with its mother, but didn't explain why.  No mention of health tests, or which registry pedigree dogs should be with - the KC.  No mention of breed clubs.  Why stress that the animal with eye disease couldn't be bred from?  That seemed an odd comment to make in the context of this programme, which was about people buying pets.
The emphasis on vaccinations bothered me too.  I wouldn't have started a course of vaccinations on a litter before sale, never mind completed it, as the owner would be likely to have to restart the course.  The first visit to the vet with the new owner is a perfect opportunity to meet the vet, start the course and get the pup checked over.  If a pup was unsold until it was older, then it would be vaccinated, but otherwise not.  My vet doesn't care for the early vaccinations either.
What happens if a pup has an upset stomach after the journey to its new home?  Are the owners going to be worried their pup is dying?  The full horror of parvo was not explained, as opposed to a mildly upset tum.

> The emphasis on vaccinations bothered me too.  I wouldn't have started a course of vaccinations on a litter before sale, never mind completed it, as the owner would be likely to have to restart the course.  The first visit to the vet with the new owner is a perfect opportunity to meet the vet, start the course and get the pup checked over.  If a pup was unsold until it was older, then it would be vaccinated, but otherwise not.  My vet doesn't care for the early vaccinations either.
>

Same here my vet does not like to vaccinate that early, earliest we start is 12 weeks. Does this mean the RSPCA want us all to run on puppies until they are twelve weeks?
Sigh what am I talking about? Being responsible? they nearly caught me out, must remember to continue breeding "mutant freaks" and keep my own less than top class vet happy!

The one in Bedford (Luton) is still advertising so called "Special Imports"

This was just the same programme ( in the series) , just different subject.

The focus was on consumers buying 'shoddy goods' - in this case it was puppies.
Nothing more - nothing less.

I got the distinct impression that neither presenter felt any compassion for the dogs...the consumers ....yes.

And to intersperse scenes of abject misery for the pups with their silly little jolly quips made me mad

> I would of thought that the local councils should and would keep a close eye on puppy farms as they grant the licence and do random spot checks with the RSPCA and check them thoroughly.

This isn't totally true.  I know of at least one "licensed breeder" that has never had a visit or home check since the original one many years ago.

From a rescue, where the very best of vets have checked them over apparently. 

Meaning? 

Im amazed here you all seem to be worried about the pups being innoculated - no worry about the conditions these dogs are kept in and the 'stock' they are bred from.

These puppy farms have been in existance for years - the Welsh assembly funded them.  The last time there was an tv programme that exposed one farm in particular resulted in that farm being lisenced!  They local authorities actually warn these places that they are going to inspect to give them time to clean up their act.  Random spot checks do not exist.

At the last count one of these local councils had over 80 registered breeders with over 10 breeding bitches in their kennels - now how often do you think they are visited.

Lets not get nitpicky over a programme lets do something about these places and the dogs that are living in hell in them.

>Im amazed here you all seem to be worried about the pups being innoculated - no worry about the conditions these dogs are kept in and the 'stock' they are bred from.

that isnt what we are worried about, that is what we are worried the BBC are saying to joe public " dont buy a puppy unless it is vaccinated" !!

>Lets not get nitpicky over a programme lets do something about these places and the dogs that are living in hell in them.

we are the ones breeding healthy puppies and getting slammed by the bbc and RSPCA for breeding unhelathy mutant freaks.  what more do you expect us to do? we cant shut down puppy farms, all we can do is try to promote healthy puppies.  Problem is we are fighting a losing battle when it comes to the BBC.

> From a rescue, where the very best of vets have checked them over apparently
>
> Meaning?

Meaning.  Do all rescues use the very best of vets?  Are good breeders not also capable of ensuring the puppies they rear are in excellent health?

> no worry about the conditions these dogs are kept in and the 'stock' they are bred from.

Where on earth have you got that idea?  If you read this board regularly you will know nothing could be further from the truth than that.

> Lets not get nitpicky over a programme lets do something about these places and the dogs that are living in hell in them.

What we are "nitpicky" over is whether this programme has been useful in explaining the issues properly and directly people to the best way in which they can purchase a sound pedigree puppy, which is what the majority of sales involved, in order to reduce the incidence of puppy farmer.

> Im amazed here you all seem to be worried about the pups being innoculated - no worry about the conditions these dogs are kept in and the 'stock' they are bred from

I beg your pardon?

I do sincerly hope that I am not included in your "you all" ascertion?

Meaning.  Do all rescues use the very best of vets?  Are good breeders not also capable of ensuring the puppies they rear are in excellent health?

Dont think anyone mentioned good breeders not being capable of ensuring pups are reared are in excellent health - that was not what was questioned.  It was rescues that were bought into question not breeders and yes all good rescues along with all good breeders ensure the dogs are in the best health they can be and do indeed use the very best of vets, why would they not?

This isn't totally true.  I know of at least one "licensed breeder" that has never had a visit or home check since the original one many years ago.

Absolutely right and when they are going to be inspected they are told before hand in order to give them time to move dogs out and clean up their act.  The Welsh Assembly has an awful lot to answer for.

I was gobsmacked by the comment about the puppy bought from the pet shop saying that it had a hereditary eye condition so wouldn't be able to be bred from :-o and yet no mention of health tests when buying a puppy at the end.

I think the worst thing that came across was just how the general public go about buying a puppy and where they go. 

> Dont think anyone mentioned good breeders not being capable of ensuring pups are reared are in excellent health

No, but they did not mention they could either, which was my point.

>It was rescues that were bought into question not breeders

By who?  The point I was making was the above one, that the programme appeared to only suggest rescues as the healthy option.

> yes all good rescues along with all good breeders

Exactly, but rescues like breeders come in different guises and some are not good.

If the programme had showed an example at the end of where you should go to get a healthy puppy. Then that would have led people in the right direction and away from the puppy farmers. They only mentioned rescues and a lot of people want a pedigree with papers and get drawn to puppy farms in local adds . It would have been nice to see them visit a breeder with pups playing with mum in the house and the owner showing all the health certificates so people could see the difference  between a good breeder and the puppy farms. Just like on chicken out  were they show the battery hens and then the free range.

From a rescue, where the very best of vets have checked them over apparently.

Sorry but that really does seem to imply that rescues do not have them checked over by the best of vets - there is not mention of most rescues doing this - although some unethical ones dont - the minority.

If someone had said - breeders, where the very best of vets have checked them over = apparently! you would be up in arms

By who?  The point I was making was the above one, that the programme appeared to only suggest rescues as the healthy option.

totally agree and maybe the programme could of gone further and should of but at least its a start. 

Someone said we cant stop puppy farming but we can if good breeders and good rescues work together to educate everyone out there.

I totally agree vinya...

> Sorry but that really does seem to imply that rescues do not have them checked over by the best of vets

Again you are putting your own slant on it.  I was not implying rescues do less that breeders but yes, I do question the statement that they use the best of vets.  I would imagine they use a decent local one and no more, the good ones any way, the same as a good breeder.

>By who? The point I was making was the above one, that the programme appeared to only suggest rescues as the healthy option.>
> totally agree and maybe the programme could of gone further and should of but at least its a start

You clearly have your own extreme bias which is why you look for the opposite in other people.  Needless to say I do not agree with you.  I have no objection at all to them suggesting they go to your local rescue if that is what you want but they could and should have given better guidance for those that want to use their perogative of choosing a pedigree puppy.

> Just like on chicken out were they show the battery hens and then the free range.

http://news.five.tv/news.php?news=1568

Wondered if you'd seen some of the reality of the RSPCA's Freedom Food farms, was shocked to see another establishment keep their RSPCA Freedom Food status despite appalling conditions, you have to wonder what does actually qualify as cruel with these people, other than pedigree show dogs, disabled owners, fat dogs etc.

The only way to stop puppy farming is to stop people buying from them. No money for the farmer then no point in breeding the pups. But a lot of people still don't know where to go to get there dream dog. Its not enough to show the bad breeders and puppy farmers . This wont stop people going to them if they don't know were else to go . And programs like the one tonight will sadly have no effect on a young couple determined  to get the breed they always wanted. The only way to stop people buying from puppy farmers is to show them were to go. Let them see what a good breeder looks like and how healthy and happy the pups are . To show people exactly what they should be looking for in a good breeder. And where to go to find one such as breed clubs. If you don't point people in the right direction then they will always take the wrong one.

You clearly have your own extreme bias which is why you look for the opposite in other people.  Needless to say I do not agree with you.  I have no objection at all to them suggesting they go to your local rescue if that is what you want but they could and should have given better guidance for those that want to use their perogative of choosing a pedigree puppy.

Sorry could certainly have put that better - what I meant was that they should of shown how to go about getting a pup from a reputable breeder of pedigree pups, I worded it very badly.  I do think the programme was pretty shoddy in many ways and that it could of been a lot more indepth.

I did take exception to the phrase apparently. 

> Sorry but that really does seem to imply that rescues do not have them checked over by the best of vets - there is not mention of most rescues doing this - although some unethical ones dont - the minority

I just don't see that, my comment on a similar vein was more to do with the fact that the Vets themselves would be pretty upset at the implication that those of them in Private Practise were not of a decent quality when compared to those that are working with rescues.

> Someone said we cant stop puppy farming but we can if good breeders and good rescues work together to educate everyone out there.

How many years do you think some of the people on this very forum have been working towards that very goal?  I can tell you from personal experience I've been educating, showing evidence, dealing with rescues for over 35 yrs and still we see it going on and on whilst the good guys who do the work and pay out the money are being kicked in the teeth by society as a whole.

I can't tell you how many people I've spent mths locating a reputable breeder with a litter of their breed of choice for, only to supply them with the information and get told 'oh we couldn't wait found a litter in the paper up an unadopted road to a farm shed and brought a puppy there'  they pat themselves on the back for  their good deed of rescuing the poor mite from terrible conditions etc.  Then the phone calls come to us for advice with the health, behaviour problems, you ask have you spoken with the breeder they're the people who know these dogs etc?  Of course they haven't coz they now know they've messed up!

> But a lot of people still don't know where to go to get there dream dog.

Education is good for those that are able to take it but I think another problem is that there is a section of people who would never pass the vetting of a half way decent breeder nor would listen to their advise that they cannot offer a suitable home to a dog but are determined to buy one anyway.  I think the business itself has to be tackled too and I would like to see councils really brought to book about taking licencing fees but taking little responsibility in policing it.  I would also like something done to prevent the importation of puppies from Ireland.

> I did take exception to the phrase apparently

That was relating to the silly comment "the very best of vets"  and its implication that the rest of us are settling for something shoddy in the vet department.

How many years do you think some of the people on this very forum have been working towards that very goal?  I can tell you from personal experience I've been educating, showing evidence, dealing with rescues for over 35 yrs and still we see it going on and on whilst the good guys who do the work and pay out the money are being kicked in the teeth by society as a whole.

I can't tell you how many people I've spent mths locating a reputable breeder with a litter of their breed of choice for, only to supply them with the information and get told 'oh we couldn't wait found a litter in the paper up an unadopted road to a farm shed and brought a puppy there'  they pat themselves on the back for  their good deed of rescuing the poor mite from terrible conditions etc.  Then the phone calls come to us for advice with the health, behaviour problems, you ask have you spoken with the breeder they're the people who know these dogs etc?  Of course they haven't coz they now know they've messed up!

Oh god tell me about it!  Its so frustrating some people just dont understand that they maybe doing THAT dog a favour but are only continueing the hell for another breeding bitch, Ive cried so many times trying to tell people that.

I dont know the answer but so long as the ruddy councils continue to give these places licenses and turn a blind eye to the horrible conditions these dogs are kept in its a losing battle.

I do think though that in those true dog lovers should be getting together and doing everything they can to stop it, whether it be lobbying the welsh assembly, thier local councils etc etcl

Education is good for those that are able to take it but I think another problem is that there is a section of people who would never pass the vetting of a half way decent breeder nor would listen to their advise that they cannot offer a suitable home to a dog but are determined to buy one anyway.  I think the business itself has to be tackled too and I would like to see councils really brought to book about taking licencing fees but taking little responsibility in policing it.  I would also like something done to prevent the importation of puppies from Ireland.

Absolutely agree, but I thin in a way that those buying from these sort of people are just not savvy on how to go about getting a dog - sort of old school so to speak and I think in that way the programme was very useful.  I think they would listen to advise if they knew where to go for it. 

As Ive already stated the councils do really need to look at themselves but as they have been seen to helping these farms they seem to want to take a back seat - hmmm wonder why?

Im sure you can imagine why I would like the importation of dogs from Ireland banned in my preferred breed but thats a whole differnt subject, although I dont think Ive seen greyhound racing discussed on these boards.

I have to agree with you Vinya.

A lot of people don't reliase that there are decent breeders out there and associate the word "breeder" with puppy farms. Before I joined CD I thought you either bought puppies from newpaper ads or went to a rescue centre as do most people I know.

we should all write to bbc rogue trader to do a tv prog on how to go about it the right way of buying a puppy from good breeders that out here ,
not just highlight the bad new and bad breeders that get away with it though the hoop hole in the system.

i be the first for a tv crew to come to my house to see my puppies and dogs how they are raised and looked after in a cosy warm home well feed and excerised.

So do I

For what it's worth, my husband thinks that the general public sees large breeding establishments/outlets as 'professional' (in a positive and safe way) and hobby breeders as 'amateurish' (as in a 'just dabbling at it' way).

If you look objectively:

I suspect he's right -  most casual litters ( and they apparently make up the majority of registered litters) are bred from one off matings of the 'breeders' pet bitch to a local dog and sold from their home.

To many we don't seem much different- my dogs are pets - the pups will be seen in my living room.
A bit like going to a car dealership versus buying one off someones home driveway I suppose.

I'm afraid tooolz' husband has it spot on. And unless dog breeders can change that perceptionlittle can be done about it, other than put pressure on local councils to inspect these places properly.

> we should all write to bbc rogue trader to do a tv prog on how to go about it the right way of buying a puppy from good breeders that out here

Unfortunately Rogue Trader is a programme that spotlights bad practices.

well we just have to turn it round,

I watched this programme, I felt that although they brought their attention to puppy farmers ways of not caring for the pups and having them health checked etc:
Like others have said on here, it would have been good to show the public a reputable breeder with puppies in the house with the mum, so that people could see how things should look when visiting a litter.

I am still not sure why, the matter was not taken any further when the puppies they had 'saved' from these horrid places had evidence of health problems etc;
It is one of those isssues which I feel will never be resolved, but if ALL good dog owners and reputable breeders gave free advice on pointing protential puppy owners of what to look out for when visiting a litter, then maybe one day these horrid puppy farmers will be made exstincted.

> I am still not sure why, the matter was not taken any further when the puppies they had 'saved' from these horrid places had evidence of health problems etc;

Because it was a consumer programme, a 'buyer beware' presentation to help consumers from being fleeced.
I didn't set out to do an expose on puppy farmers.

> Because it was a consumer programme, a 'buyer beware' presentation to help consumers from being fleeced.

As it was a buyer beware programme it did not go far enough. Had it continued by saying that this is the best way to buy a pedigree puppy, and advised people to ask at the vets what health tests should the parents have before breeding and are there any tests puppies should have i.e. CEA in collies, then it would have been a good consumer advice programme.

This programme was poor in many ways, poor because it did not explain what to ask a breeder before purchasing the puppy, poor because the presenters were obviously not really interested in the programme, and poor because the RSPCA and BBC were so keen not to mention the KC and breed clubs, that it made the whole thing a pathetic parody of the programmes that other TV companies have done. The ITV Wales programme was much better, why that programme is not broadcast to a wider audience is a mystery.

> , poor because they said the DLR was closed in 2002 which we all know it is not

Actually  no they didn't, they said it was the"UK Pedigree Registration Club Ltd" which did close in 2002 it's about 6 minutes into the program

I thought this programme was terrible.  I felt the whole subject was presented in a flippant way, the dog on the back of the motorbike - how irresponsible!!!  The whole subject of buying a puppy was glossed over and the most important questions to ask were not given.  It really went a long way to promote these type of establishments because they only picked on a few - thereby making the others OK!!  I was saddened by it!

For a long time now I have been putting forward the suggestion that the KC have an advertising campaign on TV to promote the best way to buy a puppy.  This was boo-hoo'd by CK saying that they already promote responsible ownership etc.,  I agree, they do promote responsible ownership - but that's after the puppy has been bought from "who knows where".

Perhaps as genuine dog lovers we should all get together to lobby the KC to do, either an advertising campaign or TV programme on the proper way to buy a pedigree puppy.  They could use funds from the Charitable Trust because this is in effect going to make a huge difference to the welfare of breeding bitches and puppies. 

I got told a few weeks ago that a certain person had "saved" a puppy from exploitation by buying her from a puppy farmer.  I don't think that way.  I think of the poor bitch who is going to have litter upon litter of puppies.  Where there is no demand, there is no need to supply.  Better to buy the breeding bitch than one of her puppies.

I feel really sad that this is another insult by the BBC to people who truly love dogs and only want to breed the best.  By highlighting puppy farms and how they operate, they could then have given advice on how to go about buying a good pedigree puppy.  After all, that's the advice they give when they highlight bad plumbers and builders.  Why not dog breeders!!!

Kingdom