Hi some advice girls please, one of our prospective pup owners is becoming a really rude and abrasive woman. She has paid a deposit for the pup and was fine when visiting before whelp and also a 3 weeks though I did get a little niggle about her but put it down to me being over protective and cautious. The deposit terms and conditions state in basic that the deposit is non refundable unless we cannot supply you with a pup for whatever reason, it was drawn up by a solicitor for us.
To cut to the chase, every time I have rang her, she is very clipped and critical, maintains that her vet tells her the hip score for our breed is 5 (its 18), never asks about her pup. I have sent 3 e-mails in the last 2 weeks with pictures, a copy of the contract for them to read prior to collection, and a general update etc. She has not replied until I sent an e-mail yesterday asking her to confirm to which she replied " yes we recieved the e-mails". My husband rang last week to change the collection time by an hour to which she replied that she would check with her husband but if that wasn't ok they would stick with the original time!!!.
My gut feeling now is to send the deposit back as little things about her are playing on my mind. What would you all do? I know that some of you don't take a deposit but we always have and have never had this problem after telephone vetting and meeting the person twice. I am feeling sick with worry now. My friend has told me I will regret letting her have the pup and she feels that she will be trouble all alog the way if she has one. HELP please

Go with your gut feeling for sure, if you have a niggle something is not right then there probably is, I know we are all over protective about our pups but if you let puppy go and are not completely sure in your mind that its the right owners then you will worry yourself sick, send back the deposit then that will be the end of it.

ditto,

Don't let her have the pup, give back the deposit. If she asks why and the have the courage just say because I don't like your attitude. She is treating you as if you are a shop supplying a piece of furniture which means she looks upon the pup as a domestic accessory and has no idea what emotion goes into producing a pup for her pleasure.

have to agree with the other's go with your gut feeling.

I agree, send the deposit back!

I cant believe that you are even considering letting your puppy go to this person.
You bred these puppies for you surely?
Why does it matter what this person says or feels?

I agree with everyone else.  This woman should be thrilled to bits that you are sending her pictures etc and I'm also worried at her general attitude - this is before the hard work with the puppy starts!

Exactly the reason why I don't take deposits - I like to feel in control of my pups' destiny. 
But in this case I would definitely refund her deposit .  If they're not excited before they get their pup, it won't be a pleasure for anyone afterwards! :(

I have always found that gut feelings are the best and if you are not happy with her as a prospective owner dont let her have one of your cherished pups.  I would do as already mentioned just send her the deposit back.  Until paid in full the puppy is still yours.

I totally agree, it has just happened to me. I had a lady i had a gut feeling about who was short on replies and wouldnt build any kind of rapport with me. She didnt call when she said she would and i just didnt like her!

I emailed her and told her that due to lack of contact and enthusiasm we would be withdrawing the puppy from sale to her. She didnt respond! Fortunately she was due to pay deposit but didnt.

On the upside we found the most perfect home for the pup and i have no regrets about pulling out.......they are your babies to home, if the excitement isnt there then there is something wrong surely.

if you let this pup go you will have that sick niggly feeling all the time. if you feel like this now it would send you to bits watching this lady walking off with your lovely new gorgeous bundle of fun.
send the money back saying due to unforseen circumstances (you didnt forsee she was a horror) you are unable to provide her with one of your puppies. sorry for any inconvenience etc....
you are not obliged to sell this puppy to anyone never mind someone you dont think will provide nothing but the best for your pup.

I think you will regret it big time.  Some people in life always have something to nit pick and if she is starting now think of it as a lucky escape.

send the money back , enclose a note saying that there is now not a puppy available for them and apologise.  Avoid any other contact it will save you stress..

Just for future reference do not take a deposit before a contract is read by the buyer and accepted or better still no deposits at all.

i agree....just tell her that due to unforseen circumstances the puppy is no longer for sale. I had a similar thing once and never ever take deposits again as the woman became really agressive telling me that by taking the deposit I had agreed to the sale and that i HAD to sell to her!! Needless to say the pup went to stay with a friend for a few days and I told her it was "too ill" to sell and sent her deposit back. She never even enquired about the pups health......It was a lucky escape!!!

> Just for future reference do not take a deposit before a contract is read by the buyer and accepted or better still no deposits at all.

I also am not keen on deposits really, I like to feel I say when and to whom the pups go to and I dont want any prospective new owner to feel they have a hold on my pup at all.

Pay the deposit back and tell them you are sorry but there is no way you are willing to give them a pup with their attitude. Much better to really piss them off than have it playing on your mind about the pup you give to them.

You must do what you feel most comfortable with but my thought is that is not a very unfair contract.  She is locked in but you are not, despite what your contract says. 
She may just be a bossy, obnoxious person but I am not sure this forms a good basis to conclude she is a poor dog owner.  Did she meet all the criteria you require for your vetting?  Perhaps you should offer some interest on her money you have been holding to make up for this.

these contracts are only guidelines, they are as many of us find out(r.e not returning pups neding to be rehomed) at a later date NOT legally binding on either side. i dont think you owe this lady anything at all especially one of your pups. if you have ANY doubt i would say no

> these contracts are only guidelines

I am aware of that.  I was thinking more along ethical grounds.

i would forget what you think you "may owe" her go with your heart.

> I am aware of that.  I was thinking more along ethical grounds.

Even so the prospective owner may have presented a different impression at the interview than the impression she is giving now, its perfectly natural for people to present their "best front" when first meeting you but often down the line you can disover their true personality which may not be right for a new puppy in the home, I still would go with a gut feeling everytime than live in misery thinking a puppy of mine is not happy and adored in their new home.

On the deposit front I ensure that they know that I will refund them if for any reason I can no longer offer them a puppy, but not if they change their mind.

Deposits are small (£50) which to be honest is only the cost of fuel to visit and pick pup up, so no-one is really going to feel they had to take a puppy they really didn't want, but does stop total time wasters.

This is important with a numerically small breed like mine where the availability of pups and owners is finely balanced, and for both prospective owner and breeder it isn't simply take another, you may have sent away lovely owners and then have to wait a good while for someone else as good if you get a time-waster.

> Even so the prospective owner may have presented a different impression at the interview than the impression she is giving now, its perfectly natural for people to present their "best front" when first meeting you but often down the line you can disover their true personality

Indeed, and if it was issue of something coming to light that suggests they had not been truthful about the home they were offering to the puppy I would be the first to say withdraw from the agreement.  But, unless there is rather more than stated in the post as happens sometimes the case, all we know is she passed the vetting criteria at two face to face meetings but has not been terribly friendly and objected to a change of arrangement which, to me, would not represent a big enough reason to withdraw from a personal commitment that I had made.  If we all started being penalised so severely for being rather grumpy about such things on occasion I think a few of us would be in trouble ;-)

As a breeder, I expect the owners of my pups to communicate with me throughout the pup's life.  If they are not communicating easily with you now, the chances of them keeping in contact with you afterwards, I would have thought was slim.  If this is important to you, then count your blessings and return their deposit now. :)

For those who are happy to take the money and run, then I expect they would have a different opinion. ;)

>As a breeder, I expect the owners of my pups to communicate with me throughout the pup's life.  If they are not communicating easily with you now

i agree wholeheartedly

Definitely give her the deposit back and do not let her have one of your puppies. I would say you will surely regret it if you go through with this.

When I first read your post my first thoughts were very much on the same lines as Isabels post:

The lady was a little upperty when her vet gave differing hip scores, that I can understand, she's looking for a healthy pup from a good breeder and we all say check, check, check, she's done that and perhaps what you are picking up as a bad attitude is someone worried that the pup is not what she thought it to be, to me it looks as though she may be having second thoughts herself, due to her vets advice, at least she went to the vet to ask, although given incorrect advice I can understand why she may be coming across a little shirty.

However, she obviously is taking your word for it and trusting you as she is still wanting the pup. :-)

Re: No reply from the photo's and contract, not everyone is great on the phone or the e-mail which is why I always judge a potential owner face to face, you did that and you seemed happy hence taking a deposit.

The collection time, she may well have worked a routine around collecting the pup at said time, people work, have clubs, do other things which is why a collection date and time is given well in advance for the breeder and puppy owner to work around, it has to go both ways and they were given that time first so probably worked around it for collection.  Again I can understand a possible straight talking response, she sounds like someone who is upfront and perhaps comes across a little cold, but does that mean she will be a bad dog owner?

She may not be all fluffy and keep in touch as others may, I've had a couple like that but my dogs have a great life with them and they are in touch at Christmas and I will get a nice e-mail maybe just once of twice a year, some people don't need the breeder, it's the dogs lifestyle and well being that needs to come even before our sentiment.

So, think back to the meeting of her in person what she had to offer your pup and make your decision on that, it may well be that you are still not happy in which case your pup must not go to her, but if it is purely that the woman is straight talking then don't write her off as a good dog owner, my mother is extremely British stiff upper lip, suffers no fools but her dogs are her life and she loves them to bits, that's what you need to think about first. :-)

> For those who are happy to take the money and run, then I expect they would have a different opinion.

I am not sure who you are winking at but there is another group who put everything into finding excellent homes for their puppies and do not see the social graces of those owners as the over riding feature.
I treat people as I expect to be treated myself.  When I buy a puppy it becomes my dog.  I may wish to contact the breeder and let her know how we are getting along but I feel no obligation to and would feel irritated if they felt I was obliged.  Consequently I would feel it unfair to make that part of the criteria by which I judge my purchasers.  I want it to be their dog too.

By the sounds of her she seems very domineering and I would not like  one of my precious pups to go to someone like that.  I also had to return a deposit to someone a long time ago now, but she told me lies about her hours of work and did not have anyone in place to take pup out or feed it while she was working, so I wrote a letter and enclosed a cheque for the deposit. Pup was going to be caged for 6/8 hours which was unacceptable.

> I can understand why she may be coming across a little shirty

I remember this subject being discussed fairly recently and I still dont feel that I need to be a psycho analyst, a councillor nor a plaster saint to sell puppies.
Perhaps I see potential puppy owners as a 'neccessary evil', something I have to deal with but dont really want to. If my bitches could just just deliver ONE puppy, the one I would have chosen from a litter and that's all..none to sell...... I would be delighted. 
Shock horror
Dont get me wrong, I have met  lots of lovely people, some who are long term friends, who were puppy purchasers....but that's not what I do it for.
BUT to feel that I have to see past character faults, poor communication skills, abrupt manner, indifference..... just to get a sale...well I'd have to be pretty desperate. Dismissing someone for something I'm unsure about wouldn't bother me.....'the person's' fulfillment and happiness are not my responsibilty....my Puppies lives are.

To the OP,

I'm with the majority of those replying so far - withdraw from the contract and refund the deposit.  I wouldn't let anyone I didn't feel 100% sure about have one of my precious pups and since you're clearly worried at this stage IMO there's only one way to proceed and that's to find a different home which you feel better suits :)

Best wishes, Teri

> BUT to feel that I have to see past character faults, poor communication skills, abrupt manner, indifference..... just to get a sale...well I'd have to be pretty desperate. Dismissing someone for something I'm unsure about wouldn't bother me.....'the person's' fulfillment and happiness are not my responsibilty....my Puppies lives are.

Precisely.

If someone is abrupt, rude, lacking in basic communication skills or simply indifferent to the breeder's attachment to puppies they've helped birth, raise and nurture what chance is there of the breeder being kept in the loop about any potential problems on house training, diet, behaviour, basic obedience tips etc by such an owner  ..... not a lot :(

> just to get a sale...

I think there is a big, big difference between that and an excellent home that just happens to lie with a grumpy woman.  To me the strictness of the vetting is the most vital.  What is the point of choosing someone because you think you can be lifelong friends?  This pales into insignificance to the other factors on my criteria which entirely centre on the dogs future life not my personal need for ongoing contact.
I think it perfectly reasonable for people to do what they are happy with but I do not see the need for you or Val to insult those of us who see it differently and suggest we have a lesser interest in our dogs futures.  This is simply not the case. 
Nor do I see this particular case as simply someone choosing what they are comfortable with.  I think it should be remembered that they have already made a personal commitment and there should be very sound reasons to break that even in this day and age.  For the dog sake certainly break it but for the human who has given it I would say not.

> what chance is there of the breeder being kept in the loop about any potential problems on house training, diet, behaviour, basic obedience tips etc by such an owner ..... not a lot

Not necessary if you only sell to people who already own or have owned your breed and you are happy with what they already do.

Go with your gut instincts.
If this lady is put out by a 1 hour change of plan how is she going to cope with life with a puppy???
She may just be bad at keeping up with email & 'phone calls (I'm bad with that too), but when it comes to something as important as taking on a life - the life of one of your puppies, she should be putting in the effort.
I'm not a breeder - never bred a litter in my life. But as a puppy buyer, I think it only natural to put in lots of effort with the breeder, taking on a puppy is a serious comitment, I would want the breeder to feel that I would return to them if I needed help, respect the time they have taken to communicate to me and do all I could to show I was worthy of thier puppy.
It's your decision, but I think deep-down you allready have decided this woman is not right for your puppy.

the o.p is obviously worried about the future owner of her pup, i dont think saying she has an obligation to go through with the contract will help her.

> i dont think saying she has an obligation to go through with the contract will help her.

I have already said if she is worring about the future of the pup she should not be obliged only to examine whether that is the case here.

> If this lady is put out by a 1 hour change of plan how is she going to cope with life with a puppy???

It may be just her husband schedule that is restricted.  I know how hard it is to pin mine down :-)

an excellent home that just happens to lie with a grumpy woman.
I don't see how any dog (or other human being!) would enjoy living with a grumpy woman!

Not necessary if you only sell to people who already own or have owned your breed and you are happy with what they already do.
But every dog is different and just because what they do works with the dog they've got, or had for the last 12 years, doesn't mean that it's going to work with their new puppy.  And people forget what it's like to have a puppy around if they only have a puppy every 12 years or so.

I have a couple who have had my breed all of their married lives, but now they are retired and lead a very different life.  They have needed constant reminding and guidance to raise a happy health adult who is socialised to cope with all eventualities.  He will now give them pleasure for the rest of his days. :)

Hi Isabel

> Not necessary if you only sell to people who already own or have owned your breed and you are happy with what they already do

I can fully understand that :) 

As with many, I don't have a breed where all pups will necessarily go to homes previously experienced with my particular breed.  I've been exceptionally lucky in that from a total of 17 pups from two litters, all except 4 have gone to homes previously owning the breed but that is IME quite rare.  Of the 4 'new' owners, all have previously had dogs before and thankfully experienced in many ways but with many breeds where specialist knowledge and understanding is important, IMO it's vital that the breeder(s) and owner(s) are willing to encourage open communication.

That criteria need not be for everyone - but it's what I want for mine and by the sound of things what the OP wants too :)

> I don't see how any dog (or other human being!) would enjoy living with a grumpy woman!

Mine do :-)

> But every dog is different and just because what they do works with the dog they've got, or had for the last 12 years, doesn't mean that it's going to work with their new puppy And people forget what it's like to have a puppy around if they only have a puppy every 12 years or so.

I find that hard to imagine that people would have such poor recall.  They may forget how tiring it was but I doubt they would forget how to do it but if you have chosen mature, intelligent people they are going to find a way like we did.

>They have needed constant reminding and guidance

:-o

> That criteria need not be for everyone - but it's what I want for mine and by the sound of things what the OP wants too

I understand that but she has been vetted twice in person before the commitment was made.  Surely most of what is required regarding excercise, housing, feeding, grooming etc will already have been covered and the right assurances obtained.

> What is the point of choosing someone because you think you can be lifelong friends? 

Naughty Naughty Isabel.
We know that your role is that of devil's advocate but my comment about some owners becoming friends did not imply that was a criteria...I'm sure if you re-read you will see that it was a by-product not a desire.

> I do not see the need for you or Val to insult those of us who see it differently and suggest we have a lesser interest in our dogs futures

Nothing could have been further from my mind Isabel. I breed puppies now and have done for the last 30 ish years...if and when you are in the same position...please feel comfortable with who ever you wish to sell them to. I know I do and that is my advice to the OP.

but this lady has changed in personality it seems from the vetting. which would to me ring bells. follow your heart as i feel you will regret giving your pup to these people

My feelings are like the majority. Return the money & don't let the puppy go to her.

I'm on the other side of the process at the moment & the imminent arrival of our new puppy is thanks to being known to the bitch's breeder & good communication between myself & the breeder of Roodee. This includes telephone calls, e mails(including photos of course) & texted videos. I want to be expected to reply timeously to all types of communication & not to do so is not only rude, but an indication of the treatment the puppy might receive.

We've arranged a collection day, but should have to be changed for any reason I would simply fall in with the breeders wishes. We could have collected him this week, but we are running a show on Saturday & we obviously wouldn't want to have him left in the car or at home & also be put at possible risk of catching anything from dogs at the show via us.

Go with your instincts is my advice I know I would.

I understand that but she has been vetted twice in person before the commitment was made.  Surely most of what is required regarding excercise, housing, feeding, grooming etc will already have been covered and the right assurances obtained.

This is my quibble here too, the lady concerned has past as a suitable owner, she must have given all the right signals and be in a position to offer all the pups requirements otherwise a deposit would not have been taken. No one should feel oblidged to offer anyone a pup just because they ask for one, hopefully that is not what our OP has done, if so bad, bad, judgement and then I can understand the butterflies now.

But taking it that our OP was thorough, as a dog owner she seems to have past with flying colours. What seems to have happened since is that the lady concerned has not given good human to human vibes, or maybe just not acted as our OP thought she should, which although this is what most breeders want, should not be the be all and end all to having a pup, I would never say only 'nice, friendly' people can have my pups, who knows what I might end up with. :-D

Sometimes people are turned off by stronger characters, I just think as the breeder here has put the potential owner through the paces and taken a deposit, she should speak honestly with the puppy buyer and explain her worries, she may have everything wrong.

> I understand that but she has been vetted twice in person before the commitment was made

True, but it would seem that first (and even second) impressions have been knocked on the head by subsequent communications being terse or a total lack of basic good manners by ignoring the breeder's attempts :)  For the OP, as with me, that is a concern.

I can only comment on how I feel this is best dealt with and that from my own experience of gut instinct proving to be a valuable tool.  Some people are very good at coming across warm and enthusiastic when in reality they are quite different and I also appreciate that others who appear to be on the opposite end of the endearing scale can in reality be much more 'my' kind of person :)  Instincts usually keep me right so I stick with them.

never asks about her pup

Would anyone think this is caring/normal behaviour for a potential owner?

Certainly not me Annie!
(ps nice to 'see' you ;) )

Thank you Teri :)