Help!  I've just taken my 2 year old boxer to the vets for a lepto booster and during the check up the vet said he had a grade 3 murmur but couldn't quite tell as George was shaking (wimp!).  He listened again when he had stopped shaking and said it was definitely a grade 3 murmur on the left side and suggested and ultrasound with possible ECG to determine what it was.

I don't know what to do!  I got him from a good breeder that research their matings well and always heart test (Dam and Sire were AS tested 0 and 1) and I think his pedigree is CM free.  I mentioned this to the vet and he said it doesn't matter as they can have other problems and sometimes you do get one like this in a litter and problems don't show until they are older.
I was always careful not to over-exercise when he was young and he is fed a good diet and not overweight.

Should I get him scanned or leave it as he was at the vets for a check up on his leg not long ago and this was not picked up on?  I'm worried George is going to be really ill now!!

I'm so sorry to hear that.
If you search for Boxer breed clubs within travelling distance from you, the secretaries should be able to tell you when the next heart clinic will be held. A diplomate Cardiologist will be in attendence and will give you a pretty good idea of the problem area and will advise doppler or not.The specialist near me charges a special rate of £126 ( normal rate £296) for his 'introductory offer' and you may qualify ...you can but ask.
If your boxer is insured I would certainly have him dopplered anyway, your vet will be happy and you'll be more reassurred.
In my experience AS doesn't change too much as they get older so it's unusual for a clear youngster to go to grade 3 in such a short time. I have a grade 1 bitch tested firstly at 12 months and then again when spayed at 7...vet said no change.
You said " he was at the vets for a check up on his leg not long ago " was it the same vet? Not all of them are great at hearts but if it were then I would be worried about this sudden onset. Has he had kennel cough recently? There are some strains which can cause effects on the heart, if not directly, then indirectly by strain, coughing etc.

I hope that everything goes ok for you and him, my fingers are firmly crossed.

I live in Leeds so no idea which is the closest to me but I'll have a look though.
My own vets said they would do the scan but am I better off going to a breed club thing instead?  The vet who saw him today said he did all the cardiology clinics there and did one a month, George could go in and they wouldn't sedate just scan him and maybe ECG if needed.  It wasn't the same vet that saw him for his leg but the vet that did is experienced and I thought he would have picked up on something, especially if it is as bad as a grade 3.  He has not had kennel cough ever.

Can two clear parents produce offspring that have bad hearts?  What are the symptoms as he seems his usual self and nothing was picked up on his last yearly check?

Feel free to PM if you like (anyone!)

In all honesty not ALL murmurs develop at the same time...in Newfies they can be 2/3/4/5/6/7 years old when they develop, which is why the Breed clubs advise yearly dopplers for breeding dogs. Some heart murmurs when they're puppies disappear by age 2...

Yes, clear parents can pass on 'bad genes' which is why it's important to check all the geneology behind them...although I have heard that Boxers are bred from even if they have a grade 1 or 2 murmur? Perhaps someone will be knid enough to put me straight if that isn't the case!

The heart testing done at Breed Club shows is ascultation and not dopplor.
They will charge between £10-20 per dog for this, it varies from cardiologist.

You are better going to a cardiologist that is on the Boxer breed council's approved list.
http://www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk/cardioligists.htm

Yes two clear parents can produce offspring with higher grades.
Although you would expect the incidence of such progeny to be much reduced than with parents that aren't
tested whatsoever.

Just because the dog is from CM free lines doesn't mean to say that it cannot develop AS (aortic stenosis)
and those that are free from AS doesn't mean that they won't develop CM (cardiomyopathy).

Some murmer's can be dynamic in nature and thus dopplor would rule out what the problem is.
Dynamic murmers can vary in grading depending on the dogs level's of stress/excitement etc.

For more information on aortic stenosis
http://www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk/as.htm

Guidance states one should only breed from clear grades (0 or 1) only if it is the very last of your line
with no other options available to you should you breed one litter from a bitch that has a grade 2 murmur
and only with the view of breeding to a dog with a clear grading (preferably a grade 0) to breed a murmur free
pup.
It is not ethical to breed from male stud dogs with grade 2 murmur.

The reason why grade ones are allowed to be bred from is so as to not reduce the gene pool further.

> Just because the dog is from CM free lines doesn't mean to say that it cannot develop AS (aortic stenosis)
> and those that are free from AS doesn't mean that they won't develop CM (cardiomyopathy).

What if it is from both?  Not sure if george is but I am pretty sure that the breeders would have checked as best as possible.

> Dynamic murmers can vary in grading depending on the dogs level's of stress/excitement etc.

So it could have been worse as he was at the vets and a bit stressed?  Not saying that this has made any difference but it might have.

If he does have a murmur what next?  I have no idea!

> If he does have a murmur what next?  I have no idea!

When I started heart scoring my dogs...way back at the start of the scheme, I took the 2 youngsters I had kept from a 0 to 0 mating to Mr Oakley. One had a 2 and one a 3..to say I was dissapointed was an understatement. It can and does happen and no one is to blame, heart score is a phenotypical thing not genotypical so nothing is cut and dried.
The young dog with the grade 3 had already been sold and I explained to the owner that their vet may wish to investigate further and start him on meds. He went on to live a long and normal life.He didn't died of heart problems.
When we first became aware of AS it was always said that a bad heart seldom killed a boxer, it's usually cancer.But with the advent of CM everything has changed and action must be taken if this is diagnosed. A good cardiologist with experience of AS/CM in boxers is advisable.

> So it could have been worse as he was at the vets and a bit stressed

AS is caused by a thickening of the Aortic ring at the exit of the left ventricle, causing reduced flow to the body but primarily to the head. Excitment can cause heightened blood pressure but it usually doesn't have too much effect on AS score. CM is abnormal electrical activity in the heart muscle.
Get the advice of a cardiologist before you worry too much (easier said than done).

Best wishes.

It depends if the murmur is dynamic in nature (if stress can affect the grading or not)- which is what the dopplor test should pick up where the murmur lies etc.
I know that on asking my own vet that they say that dopplor testing can range in price from £200-400. But I'm sure that can vary from region to region too.

My friends have had a dog that was graded 3/4 for AS. He lived to old age with minimal management (not over exercised especially when hot and kept calm as possible in their Boxer pack, still allowed to play etc), don't think he was on meds until very much later in life and he did reach double figures.
Died when got too excited about going in the car to the vet for something other than his heart. Think he was 11 or 12 at that point so a good age for any Boxer.
So please don't necessarily think a grade 3 is a major worry for longevity for your Boxer.
Each case is individual and cardiologists can help you determine what treatments/prognosis are/is best for your Boxer.

I have had dogs tested for AS since the early 90's and took part in the two testing panels for the cardiologists when they were 'tuning in' for scoring purposes.
I've also donated one of my dogs heart for research into AS (she was graded a 1).