I noticed a thread on Behaviour that said it is well known that Springers are one of the most dominant aggressive breeds. All the old fashioned type dog books say that Springers are a very friendly breed and have no aggression in their character (quote...."the most pacific of breeds to man"). I have a modern american dog trick book and this warns about the aggression problem with English Springers, I have also read this on american web sites. One said that canine rage syndrome was first diagnosed in English Springers. Anyway, (sorry to ramble on) my question is, who is right? Maybe bad breeding has changed the character of these dogs or is this just a modern myth? I'm interested in this because I have a Springer myself. Your thoughts? :)

Hi springermania - i remember your post regarding your rescue springer biting - how is he behaving? I personally don't think there is a problem with the breed,and was unaware that it was a 'well known fact' anywhere! gundogs are bred to be biddable in my eyes, can you imagine on a shooting field a load of dominant agressive spaniels not doing as they were told and having a big punch up????. I'm sure you will get loads of replies to this one and from more experience spaniel owners than me (i've got two with two kids and have always found mine to be very trustworthy around people and other dogs, I adore spaniels especially springers and feel this accusation is very unjust ! I think various problems arise in individual dogs and that it is unfair to label a breed! Hope your boy has settled in! julie:)

Hi.
Springers are highly active dogs that need mental stimulation, and yes I have know some very nasty ones. In my kennels they are one of the top 5 breeds we would consider problem dogs for boarding. Saying that I know loads of correctly reared and socialised Springers that make wonderful companions and pets. I think many are working type dogs that need a job to do (UK) the show bred Springers I have known tend to be more placid, but I have known exceptions there too. I don't think they are dodgy on the whole, they just don't suit the people that own them for whatever reason.
Dawn.

So out of your experience, Dawn, where would the range of "aggression" be for these spaniels in comparison with ALL of the other dog breeds you've dealt with in your kennels??? This individual stated that it was in the top (not sure which top, yet -- top five? top 10? top 20?) dog breeds known for these problems. Not being antagonistic, but seeking a guesstimate :)

Hi sarah.
As you can imagine we see hundreds of dogs each year and often board up to 80 at any one time. springers are popular pets, and we do see many with aggressive tendancies. Ranging from food/toy possession to dominance aggression which appears to be increasing in frequency. As far as other breeds, well obviously the most popular type of dog is going to be the "crossbreed" of whatever shape or size, but as far as a pedigree goes, Springers are one of the most common. I did a quick search on our books. Out of 62 dogs banned 14 of them were Springers, a lot for a breed which is supposed to show NO aggressive tendancies at all. As for Brittany's, still primarily a working breed I think, I board just 5, all no problem. I also board several Pit Bulls (type), Neapolitans, Akitas, many breeds which some people would say pose considerable threat, but raised correctly are no trouble at all.
Dawn.

That's interesting Dawn, thanks for the info.

I have been reading up on dominance aggression and rage syndrome in dogs, and most of the info I have found (mostly online) does state that Springers can have dominant aggressive tendancies, which if not dealt with by training etc can turn into rage syndrome. The study does mention other breeds of course, and rescue dogs also, but one of the first to be identified was springers.
I wonder if it is due to a their being a popular breed ? And how their breeding affects them?

Most of what I have read so far does originate in the states.

Theresa

Hi, I was interested in your post and am replying to 'springers have dominant tendances, which if not dealt with by training can turn into rage syndrome' This implies that dominant tendences in a dog such as a springer spaniel, cocker spaniel, golden retriever the three breeds that rage syndrome has been diagnosed in can be trained to be less dominant and therefore prevent a rage syndrome occuring. Sorry, I cannot agree, having owned a dog, diagnosed with rage syndrome and lived with a dog suffering from this condition I think I have a witnessed the condition first hand. Rage syndrome is a very, very, quick unpredictable aggression for not apparient reason. There is no warning for ther owner/the person in charge of the dog/or the person who the dog attacks that an attack is imminent. It happens in a flash and the consequences of an attack can be devistating. Believe me, unless any of you on this board have witnessed a dog suffering from rage syndrome you cannot begin to imagine what it is like. The event is nothing like a dog biting in the sense of when it is dominant aggression or when a person is bitten by a dog by intervention. It is entirely different and should never ever be considered/confused as the same. I think if anyone owns a dog with this condition they will very quickly be aware, it is not like living with a dog that is known to be aggressive or domminant over food or possessions (athough most will have these tendencies too) , where to be aware is forewarned. With rage syndrome there is no warning, there is no time to prevent an attack, it is truly very frightening. For this reason, going back to my reasons for not agrreeing that training can prevent rage syndrome, it is impossible to train to prevent something happening if the owner and possibly the dog itself does not know when it is going to happen.
Pat

Hi Pat,

Sorry if my first post was unclear, I did not mean to imply that rage syndrome is a natural progression from dominant aggression and therefore can be cured. I should have said that in reading up on both dominant aggression and rage syndrome, several sites listed rage syndrome as potentially being unattended dominant aggression, however they did not list this being the sole cause of rage and several discussed the potential neurological causes of rage syndrome which as you have said, is entirely unpredictable.
I have met two dogs one a Cocker and one a St. Bernard who suffered from rage syndrome and agree that their behaviour was as you have described.

Apologies if I have confused or offended you in any way.

theresa

I have also read studies that suggest rage syndrome is extreme dominance aggression but, having had a dog with rage, I cannot agree with this. It may be true in some cases but there are also neurological and hormonal triggers for rage which have nothing to do with dominance. We had a Maremma sheepdog who was put to sleep in January because of rage. When he was himself he was gentle and submissive - not only to us but to the other dogs. When he "turned" (instantly and with no more provocation than someone being in the same room) he went for the throat - the only thing to do was to turn away and stay still until he stopped attacking (usually a few seconds but it felt like more) - I got some nasty bites on my arms and back but it could have been worse. Afterwards he was slightly confused and "apologetic". He was diagnosed as having autoimmune thyroiditis and this was thought to be the cause of his attacks. Both his two vets and the trainer we took him to agreed that the cause of the rage was physical and this certainly tied in to our feeling about how it happened. We tried to treat him for 9 months but in the end the risk of serious injury from a raging 100lb dog was too great and we put him to sleep. It was heartbreaking - he was only 2 years old - and such a sweet big baby most of the time.
More information on autoimmune thyroiditis at http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/bizarre_behavior.htm and http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/behaviorandthyroid.htm - the US vet Jean Dodds has done a lot of work on this.

Any dog that suddenly displays aggessive behaviour with no warning or prior dominance should be tested for thyroid antibodies. AIT can be treated though, sadly, not always with success.
Janet

This "Rage Syndrome" is akin to an epileptic seizure....neither of which a dog has any control over :(
Sara

Thank you. At last some one who speaks the truth.

Thanks Dawn for answering my question that I asked.
It sounds as if (at least in your region) Springers are gaining the aggression that John fears is growing also in Golden Retrievers. It's sad. These breeds are not supposed to be aggressive at all.

Hi Dawn, can I ask you if the springers and indeed other dogs that are in your top 5 breeds you have trouble with at the kennels are dogs that are usually troublesome within the home enviroment for the owners or just display this kind of behaviour at the kennels? A friend of mine runs a boarding kennels and has indeed had to turn particular dogs away that she has had trouble with, but that is individual dogs, not breeds, I asked her about this and she feels that dogs are inclined to behave differently in the kennel enviroment and can be guardy about their bedding/toy bought from home, or infact the kennel itself. These dogs she speaks of do not usually act this way in their own home, I wonder how you feel on this? Also I wonder if it is localised - you know the springers or other breeds coming from particular breeders in your location having this kind of temperament in their stock? both of my own spaniels are working lines, and although not worked are kept extremely active with agility and training and both a submissive and extremley friendly. I would be really interested to know your views regarding the kennelling - and do apologise if you have already answered this kind of question last night - I only saw a couple of answers last night - I know this thread has kindly been edited and put back on by leigh to be discussed! (thanks leigh:)) julie:)

hi Sarah.
John is correct, Golden Retrievers can be very unpredictable, I have seen many and they all display similar tendancies. Lovely one minute then will bite in a flash.

Hi Julie.
Most of the dogs that come in do have problems at home too. You usually don't get the whole story anyway in case you don't board their dog and they can't have a holiday!! that really does happen, I am sure your friend will tell you too. You do however see dogs behaviour change in some instances because of their surroundings, dogs cope with situations in different ways, and defence is often a part of it. This type of behaviour is very apparent and is easily distinguished from a dogs normal behaviour, and they almost always improve within 24hrs.

I think aggressive tendancies can be heightened in a strange environment too, so a dog that won't let his owner take a bone from him, will guard it like something possessed from a stranger, and don't forget there are many other dogs around too. A dog that guards it bed at home, will sometimes not let a stranger walk past it, again kennel owners have to deal with it.

Back to Springers, I do think their temperaments have changed, I spoke to a friend last night, who works Cockers, and he says aggression amongst Springers has increased too in the working field, and "Sprockers" (Cocker x Springer) are becoming more popular, how true that is I am not sure, but I see no reason for him to lie to me.
Dawn.

It makes me so sad to read this :( I grew up with a Golden retriever, albeit my parents choice so I didn't research the breed, but she was the most beautifully natured dog, so friendly and placid and happy :) I remember then reading in the paper about a Goldie who had attacked the child in the family who owned it, and our instant reaction was that the child must have provoked it because it wouldn't have been in the dog's nature to attack otherwise.
I think it's so sad that one of our most 'family friendly' dogs (traditionally anyway) is having more instances of aggression, I hadn't realised it was becoming more common, and I wouldn't have thought it in Springers either.

I'm sorry, I'm just having a grief moment :( :(

I think 'springer rage' started in america, where a lot of things start. The cure, as always, is some sort of therapy, for the dog as well as it's owner it seems. I used to go to a US board for springers, and every second post was along the lines of 'should I have my springer PTS as I've heard they're not safe with my kids, as I've heard about springer rage'. Seems they now have 'cocker rage' as well.

It would be nice if Craigy gave us all the details of his thesis, together with things like number of participants, weighting for numbers sold, where the pups were sourced from etc. (If the thesis exists, that is). So come on Craigy, you seem to be the only one who knows about this, whilst a great many on this site, who have been around/bred/rescued dogs all their lives, seem to know nothing about it.

There are some mean springers around, for sure. The charity I help out had one a month or so ago. Bit the girl in the family, rehomed then bit the new owner, then mouthed the guy that went to collect it. Of course, on closer inspection, it turns out the dog had no papers etc.

Not convinced that a 'working' breed that doesn't 'work', then turns aggressive because of it.

Doesn't everything psychotic start in America, Dave???? ;) :D ;) :D :P We're proudly a country of dysfunctions :) After all, we were either exiled as criminals or left for ideological rationales from the homeland :) :D :)

roflol sara

theresa

Hello DaveN. The dog had no papers? Oh well that sure was the reason then. I am not trying to cause histeria. Most springers are nice. I just made a comment that as a breed they suffer from Dominance Aggression as do labradors and Rottweilers.

Craigy

I'm interested in your research and the results it appeared to show to you. Was it a fairly regional study or was it national. I ask this question as I wonder if there was perhaps a particular line that was behind the problem. Is it possible many of the springers were originating from one or two breeders or a puppy farm who had not put temperament at the top of their priorities when selecting breeding stock ?

Sara

It was a regional study. A fairly broad area though. Possibly everything that you have described could be a valid reason. I am sure that responsible breeders monitor their dogs and progression as they grow and would discontinue breeding with dogs that caused such problems. Puppy farms have undoubtedly caused many of the problems we see with dogs today.

Hi Springer Mania

There is a website on Rage Syndrome here is a link Rage Syndrome

If you are talking of Springers with aggressive behaviour in the US I cannont comment on this, but I haven't heard of any in the UK. Maybe really hyperactivity which can cause lots of problems but nothing with aggression.

Again though if people are just breeding to make money then who knows what type of Puppy you will be getting.

Dessie

Flippin' 'eck!! I wasn't trying to start WWIII! I have many old books that all mention the wonderful friendly temperament of Springers and a few new ones that mention the opposite. I was just interested what others think. Maybe the puppy farms are to blame or perhaps in the old days bad tempered dogs were just PTS, nowadays they are put into rescues and/or bred from in puppy farms. My own dog is I think a bit hyper but not vicious (I hope!). He has just never been taught any manners (I think). I hope this post doesn't cause too much offense. I don't want to be banned, I've only just joined :)

Take heart, Springer, if I haven't been banned by now, you definitely won't ever be ;) :D
I had a post last night where I brought up the different changes in households over the last 20 years. It vanished too :(
I personally think that dogs are just as stressed by our 'modern' habits as are the people living in the household :( There's also a lack of time + the concept that everything has to be rushed. If it's not quickly fixed, then its either defective or broken :( Some breeds might be able to handle the different changes in habits, some aren't. Plus it also depends on the individual dog as to what is manageable :)

ive owned and shown dogs now for over 20 years, also handled other breeds along the way, ive owned rotts without too much hassel, shown akitas, 1 of the only breeds ive handled for someone else that ever bit me was a dalmation-----in my home life hubby shoots and has owned 3 springers and one lab---the lab was pure working, far too hyper and THE most dominant dog ive ever had live here, it was pts at about 7 months, and not a day too late,!!! as was 1 spaniel, a gain untrustworthy temperament, this spaniel was bought from a shooting man whod become ill and needed a home, the dogs temperament was shocking, i dont believe in passing poor temperament on, he too was pts, however the following 2 spaniels are the most gentle reliable working dogs you could wish for, one is around 12, the other about 4, we did travell a fair distance for the first, and hit on lucky with the second, so i think its mostly in the breeding, and a touch of how much they get away with, !

I do wonder how much change in lifestyle has to do with the problems we see in dogs these days. You hear so many of the traditionally friendly breeds having aggression problems, how much is breeding and how much is their early start in life. So often you get people who work full time and want a puppy. Puppies are hard work if you want a well mannered, obedient, sociable dog and shutting them away for most of their lives without any contact is not goig to help.
When I worked full time I was lucky enough to be able to take the dogs with me, or my partner would, when that was no longer possible I changed to part time employment as no way could I cope with giving the dogs the time they needed and a full time job.
I know many dedicated people that do, but how many just feel they want a dog and leave it all day, come in from work tired so the puppy doesn't get the training and socialisation it needs, they then blame breeding etc. not realising that it is their own fault. Ingrid

Hi Ingrid,
You could be right. Reading your post makes me think the change in lifestyle could also explain why so many young people also seem to have aggression problems. Up our way it seems to be the norm to be rude, aggressive and ill mannered to people :(

I sound like my mother. I must be getting old but even reading other threads where people say they don't even get Xmas gifts acknowledged nowadays, I can remember being made to write thank you letters :)

There seems to be a definite change in human attitude towards each other and I think towards animals as well so it could partly account for some dog problems we see. Just IMHO.
Dot

So many things have changed in the life of a dog. When I was young it was the execption rather than the rule that dogs were shut in the garden. I can think of at least 3 dogs who spent most of the day laying at the open front gate. What better socialisation could you get? Obviously we can no longer do that but it makes the socialisation we give to our dogs all the more important.

Regards, John

Hi Ingrid, I was thinking that a change in human lifestyle was not the main problem but then I read your post and realised that my dog has had a taste of this. He was found stray and re-homed to a person who was out at work all day (til 10.30pm!), at that time he was only 8 months old (they gave him to a rescue eventually, which is how I got him). However, Dizzy has also confirmed my own opinion when s/he tells of the dogs being pts for bad temperament. The first dog book I ever bought was "who wants a dog?" by PJ Whyte (60's or 70's i think). Euthanasia was recommended for everything from chronic biting to loneliness to missing old owners! Nowadays, they'd just be passed to a rescue.

I would agree that an aggressive dog shouldn't be passed on or bred from, but some of these dogs just need a bit of TLC.
Two years ago I took on a one year old GSP who had been shut away most of his life, he wasn't in the least friendly with anything. Now although wary of strangers he is a totally different dog, I wouldn't say his problems were breeding at all, he is the most loving affectionate dog I've had, and I'm pretty sure if I had had him from a pup he would have been a different dog, he just lacked social skills. If for any reason I couldn't keep him I doubt I would pass him onto anyone, he's had a mixed up life already and I don't think it would be fair to him or a new owner.
GSDs are the love of my life and if they don't get the correct upbringing they are awful, an unsocialised GSD is a disaster waiting to happen, but then they have such a bad reputation people avoid them, unfortunately this isn't the same for spaniels, so if you have a bad one people aren't wary of them.
It's a sad world we live in now, dogs are just another 'must have' for some people and when things go wrong or the novelty wears off they are discarded without much thought. Good luck with your dog. Ingrid

I certainly agree that a change in lifestyle can cause many problems; years ago mums walked the kids to school with the dog, took the dog shopping and tied it up outside the shop, someone was at home with the dog all day, etc.
Now we have kids taken to school by car (dog left at home), mum then goes to supermarket (dog left in car or at home again) and so on....

It surely has to affect a dog, and has certainly given rise to new problems such as separation anxiety.

Lindsay

As I cannot drive I am still one of the first. My dogs are very laid back about heavy crowds and trafic, and travel well on buses and trains, so much so that fellow passengers don't realise they are there until we get up to get off. Horror of horrors I do tie them up outside shops, but I doubt anyone would have the nerve to try and steal several wolf like canines! :D Also where I live people are so used to seeing me with them, that if I have to go out without them everyone asks where they are. On the rare occasion my daughter has taken one for a walk to the shop for milk after dark, she gets the third degree about the dog!

Hi Brainless, I grew up with GSDs and Yorkies - we had 5 GSDs and 2 yorkies - If I ever asked as a teenager if I could go out - Dad said , yes pick a dog! I always, always had to take one of the shepherds (except they were called Alsatians back then - i'm old!!) with me!! I think dogs lives have changed , I don't think dogs were left for long periods, women stayed at home more then (nothing wrong with working- don't get me wrong!!) they are more families with both parents working now, and they were fed differently too, our dogs were fed a BARF diet, although we didn't know it at the time, and table scraps etc!!! Julie:)

There's a picture I have of my father as a kid sitting on the porch with his dog when he was young. It was a Cocker named "Big Red". Photo must have been taken around 1934.
Well, "Big Red" Was big. He'd probably be considered a 'working cocker' today. ;) Along with his height, he looked pretty chunky. Dad says he did have lots of padding on him. He ate bones and table scraps....but I guess my grandma had the same desire to feed him as she did her farm hands :D :D :D :D :D

Yep, the dog roamed daily all over the farm, but the exercise wasn't enough to compensate for the massive calorie amount that he consumed. :rolleyes: :) :D