Just looking for opinions.  In light of the KC clamp down on very close matings, would you ever consider doing a half brother to half sister mating - both dogs having the same sire, a dog known for siring winning bitches but the dams almost unrelated?

Personally, I would but then I do what I want and feel if this is the best dog for the bitch, then that is the way to go but I would be interested in others opinions.     

I'm not sure if I would but I do know of some dogs in my other breed that are wonderful examples of the breed with no health problems etc.  I just think I'd be to worried to do it unless Iknew both lines inside and out.

I would have no problem with doing such a close mating IF the dogs behind were all of good quality and I KNEW that there were no serious health problems lurking in the ancestors. :)

Unrelated mothers and additionally if the father was actually an outcross ( Ie not tightly bred in the first place) often produces lower co-efficients than most people realise.

Think that is often what makes it harder when a rule is brought in that has taken no real measure. 

I think if the co-efficients are not too high and you are comfortable in your knowledge of the pedigree ( ie health and type)  then yes it is acceptable.

I would never go closer though personally.

> Just looking for opinions

> Personally, I would but then I do what I want

Is this a genuine request for informed opinion OR simply something thrown in to the forum for debate?

One of the things I like about CD, admittedly I'm not a member of any other forum, is the core of good and conscientious breeders and owners.  Against a tide of random and accidental matings, 'oh but I love puppies', and seemingly misplaced sentimentality there is usually a bunch of people dispensing well considered and sound advice from a platform of long dog ownership and breadth of experience.

My concern this thread is the opportunity it gives people to 'bash' breeders, or the unscrupulous to imagine that if 'she' is doing it then so can I.  I don't doubt that you would do your research and enter into this from a desire to improve the breed etc but would everyone understand exactly what level or depth of knowledge matings like this require? 

I suppose what I'm curious about is do you really have to ask what everyone else thinks?   I only have to read a few threads from the last week about breeding to have me rolling my eyes heavenward and wondering what audience you may be reaching.  :)

Yep I would too...but then the Yorkies have virtually NO health issues, apart from Patella subluxation, which fortunately none of mine carry...academic now isn't it! But yes, within the constraints of Dams being bred apart, right stuff behind Sire, then it's a yes from me!

is this half brother half sister mating one of the ones the k/c are saying you cant do? or is this ok?as i have been wondering about using my bitches ..fathers half brother  the two dogs have same father but different mothers and the mothers are very differently bred
does that make sense?

im not a breeder, so this is simply my opinion, but i think it is wrong. i feel that except for some extremely rare breeds, there are enough good quality dogs out there that you should not need to do crossing such as this. i feel in the long run problems may be thrown up, and would not feel comfortable being involved in such a mating. but as i have said, im not a breeder, and this is purely my opinion as a "joe public". i wouldny buy a pup from a close mating.

My Inka is the result of a half brother sister mating, but on the Dam of both parents, my Jozi being grandmother both sides.

The sires (both imports) of both parents are unrelated for as far back as I know. one being an American import the other Norwegian.

> as i have been wondering about using my bitches ..fathers half brother 

That would be just half uncle to half niece, less closely bred than perfectly legal cousin marriages.

The KC is just refusing full brother sister matings.

> I suppose what I'm curious about is do you really have to ask what everyone else thinks?   I only have to read a few threads from the last week about breeding to have me rolling my eyes heavenward and wondering what audience you may be reaching

How patronizing?
I think in the main.. the audience (as has been shown) is well placed, well informed or well able to discuss this be it query or musing. As the OP has been a member now for many years I expect that was taken into account given the ulterior 'ethos' of this forum.
   Yes there are those who are novices (ill or well informed) who will read this.... I cannot for the life of me think of a better place for them to find in one place the whys & wherefores, the do's & Don'ts and the pros and cons!? Much better this than the 'shooting fish in a barrel' posts that seem to follow a query from an obvious novice.
     Better led by an experienced and extremely ethical breeder (whose achievements and dogs speak for themselves) But thats my opinion.. and the flip side of the coin ;)

> How patronizing? <IMG alt="eek" src="/images/eek.gif"/>

Oh dear - not what I meant at all !!

> Better led by an experienced and extremely ethical breeder (whose achievements and dogs speak for themselves)

I'm not questionning this breeders ability to make an informed decision: simply the wisdom of opening those particular floodgates again.  I'm getting a bit sick of 'bash the breeder' comments and I'm so disheartened lately by the many 'bad news' stories that accompany a lot of the novice breeding posts on here.

> Better led by an experienced and extremely ethical breeder (whose achievements and dogs speak for themselves) But thats my opinion.. and the flip side of the coin ;-)

Thanks hun.  Shame the ethics stopped at the cats!    ;-)

I'm not out to 'bash the breeder'.  I have had my breed for over 20 years now and I've got ol' rhino hide for skin and the broadest of shoulders.      I was merely asking for those in a similar vein, what their views would be especially those with known good reputations.

> As the OP has been a member now for many years I expect that was taken into account given the ulterior 'ethos' of this forum.
>

And prior to my username being what it is now, I was also under another name for 2 years prior to that!  :-D

I would do it if I knew the backgrounds of both parents, the bitch we have recently imported is from 1/2 brother/sister mating with the same mother, but the fathers are not related.  Her breeder wanted to carry on a particular line and this is why it was done, If we breed from her in a couple of years then I will source a dog that is not closely related but with similar lines.

Tracy

> Oh dear - not what I meant at all !!
>

Dogs a babe:

I'm sure you didn't. I too have kept well clear of certain threads where the 'oops - puppies' sub-forum have 'advised' one another.

As to Christine's original question:  I was asked yesterday, probably tongue in cheek, if I would ever allow a friend to use my young dog on her bitch, his half sister. Bearing in mind it was a Cavalier, I declined as the mode of inheritance in their most severe conditions is still unknown. But if, in the fullness of time these two individuals prove to be genetically free from prevelant disease, mating them may be just the thing to do...time and science will  tell.
In principal, and in other breeds, I think that there is a place for this mating in a well thought out breeding plan but I would think that it would take courage and a thick skin.

Good grief Christine...you're THAT old hun?? ;-)

I think the Yorkie lines that I have now, are truly typical, thanks to Jean! A lot of their inheritence goes back to good quality, well coated, well coloured and just plain good 'ole decent dog that it has to be considered, especially against what is appearing in the Show and Pet world now.  Although Yorkies are one of the most popular breeds people buy...what they typically don't get is a 'typical' yorkie! Lots and lots of people stop me when we're out with the gang and ask...ahh are they miniature/tea cup Yorkies?? They have no idea that the size I have are what the standard calls for! Far too many have what I call Cairn traits! Rough coats, overly large, usually hop, skipping and a-jumping around due to bad patellas! I think that 'hardy' breeds are bought in to 'cross' them, and make whelping and hence 'puppy farming' easier for them! I'm just glad they don't have all the problems that some breeds have...very sad indeed...

> Good grief Christine...you're THAT old hun?? ;-)
>
>

I KNOW but I look good on it - I sleep in a pickle jar!   ;-)

I bought my first LM as a teenager I hasten to add!

Buddy big jar!!! :-o ;-) Just kidding, honest injun!!! :-)

> simply the wisdom of opening those particular floodgates again.

For me the wisdom is in the posting of this type of query, in this type of forum to this type of audience.
  I am well used to 'bashing' coming from a Norwegian family of Fur traders and hunters (and a Father in BASC & Countryside alliance) and have historically always found with out exception, in those periods of 'flack' that open discussion is/ and  can only be educational and a 'not in front of the children' / 'behind closed doors' / 'it might give them more ammunition' mentality helps no one in the long run... as some breed clubs are finding to their detriment.
   

That's exactly why this discussion needs to be aired! You cannot make an opinion out of knowing nothing about Breeding...so you must watch and learn like all of us need to! ;-)Sometimes there are very good reasons for using line breeding like that. In some breeds, whilst the gene pool is positively flooded, it is flooded by the WRONG TYPE of Genes! :-)

Clenched fists might win battles
   but open palms win wars ;)

I wasn't having a go honest injun...I was just stating we ALL need to learn, honest! (I did put a nice little smiley in...) ;-)

I suppose it did look as if I was having a go, I just re-read it! So sorry!

> I'm not out to 'bash the breeder'.

ChristineW, perhaps misguidedly I was rather hoping to 'save' you from being bashed! :)  It seems lately that every time one of the more experienced or knowledgable breeders sticks their head up over the parapet, particularly with slightly contentious subjects, they find themselves shot at.

There was a thread recently about a bulldogs accidental mating (I think I remember that right?) that had people offering to raise the puppies should the dam die in childbirth rather than terminating the pregnancy to save the bitch, and who would have had the poster (experienced breeder & unfortunate family member that was volunteered to help) rush up to London from Devon to 'rescue' the dog, raise the puppies, find them homes, then deliver the bitch back to the owners.  Breeders with experience of the difficulties of birth in this breed were condemned for being heartless at best, and cruel murderers at worst.  To save the puppies at the cost of the bitch seems like sentimentality of the worst kind yet it was being pushed by more members than I would have expected.  Seems particularly strange when most were happy to acknowledge their lack of detailed knowledge or experience!

You don't need to defend your breeding practises and I'm sure with your history you are able to sift replies from members you trust and respect but new members do not have that level of knowledge and there is a lot of breeding advice being given lately in urgent and extreme situations.  I'm not in favour of curtailing free speech at any level but I do think it pays to be circumspect.  Whilst acknowledging your reasons for choosing a mating of this kind it is worth pointing out the pitfalls for the casual or novice reader.

I think what is vital with any form of breeding and especially line breeding is in depth knowledge of the traits, temperament and health of the individuals whose genes are being 'distilled' so to speak.

My own case I think I explained in another thread last year.

I have a very fine, healthy typical champion bitch who was in her 9th year, having produced three excellent quality litters by two sires, both out-crosses.

One of these litters had produced for me a Champion daughter who I mated to another out-cross, and got very mixed results (but better results by putting a bitch from this to a half brother of her grandmother Jozi).

In her second litter I really wanted not to loose the traits and type I admired in her mother, so I used her half brother who was also by an out-cross.

So far at 6 months I am more than pleased with the puppy I kept and the litter was in my opinion of very even and high quality.  Just as importantly the pups were very vigorous and forward.

I will mate the pup to an out-cross (may need to travel abroad), but hopefully of similar type that I have in her.

I have done this type of mating and am expecting a litter currently from half brother/sister.  The KC have confirmed that it is definately allowed.

I do think there are occassions when it is not advisable however having used the stud dog on a different bitch with excellent restults and also having done the same type of mating different dog with the dam it has provided excellent results.  I did once do a litter with a half sister/half brother mating where the sire was a result of brother to sister mating and the result was horrendous from a health point of view so I would never go down that route again but provided the dams side of the pedigree is varying from the sires then no I dont think it is too bad

Saying that I also had a excellent litter when I did a outcross with my last litter.

This is just my opinion I stress:

It seems to me in this day & age, that closer breeding practices are frowned upon and people seem to relish stating that 'the sire isn't related to my bitch' but to be truthful, I feel the quality of dogs is going down.  Yes, there can be some outstanding specimens but at open show level there's dogs being shown I would only term 'pet quality'.

In the past, big names would line breed to establish type and often their kennels were filled with dogs that looked all very similar to each other.    I know it is the same with pedigree cattle who are in closed breeding programmes and when their bull calves come onto the market they are widely sought by other breeders.

My first litter were from a dog & bitch that had one common ancestor back in the 4th & 5th generations, the litter was good but the puppies could be paired off for type - you would get 2 pups that resembled one another, and another 2 slightly different but resembling one another.   Litters 2 & 3 were sired by a dog who picked up some more of the lines I had behind my first bitch and both litters were far typier - like all little b&w peas in a pod.

> Yes, there can be some outstanding specimens but at open show level there's dogs being shown I would only term 'pet quality'.
>

TBH I think this has always been the case and since the Cruft's qualifier was brought in, many more novice exhibitors don't make use of the open show except to gain a few JW points.
Classes at open shows can be very empty enabling owners with less than ideal dogs to get ribbons at every show - and it is their hobby after all and not everyones life's work.
For many 'occasional' breeders the most important criteria for choosing a stud dog would seem to be it's geographical location or it's winning record. For breeders like that and those with a less than comprehensive grasp of reading a pedigree, being very wary of close inbreeding is no bad thing IMO.

I have got to be honest Christine I agree with you.  I think the ordinary pet buyer seems to feel that they are better off getting a dog without any relatives in common as they feel it will be more healthy. 

I once had someone who returned a dog to me who they said was out of control!  He was rehomed to someone who I knew who had one of my other dogs and he is one of the best behaved dogs they have had. They blamed me as they said it was a result of too much close breeding.  I did explain I owned the brother who is the best behaved dog I have ever owned and I had not had any problems with any one else.

They have since bought two boy labs who last time I heard were fighting with each other and most definately not line bred!

When novice breeders say 'I've checked the pedigrees and they're fine', whenever I've asked, they always mean they the same name doesn't appear twice on dog or bitch pedigees. :(  That's exactly the sort of mating that I would avoid. :)

I don't know if I would do it, not in my breed. There are enough problems coming through without tempting fate.

Ah but surely it's about knowing where the problems are coming from? I can't do a wink smiley anymore. ;) Yes I can! :)

We have a Dane from half brother/half sister mating ,and the breeder has just mated a Aunt to a nephew, the only reason is she knows what lies in these lines, she has bred for 30 years, and has went out, but has bred quite close, as above, she had looked at a few stud dogs, but there are problems in most lines, far back, or not so far back!
She wants to keep a healthy line, with no HD, CM, wobblers in them, hence using a dog sired by the bitches brother.

Were looking to mate our bitch to a Danish Dog, but shes very concerned as we dont know what lies behind him, we have done a lot of research, and were hoping nothing will come through, but thats the gamble you have to live with, everytime you mate a bitch!!

Christine and I have the same breed ;-) We tend to know, or know about, most of the dogs in their pedigrees. This helps us make the decision a lot easier.

To take things to another level. I have a young bitch. I don't know if I will breed from her. If I decided to I could use a young dog (if his owners agreed :-) ) that has done a decent amount of winning in the past year (he's a month or so younger than she is) The only thing is: their fathers are half brothers; their sisters are half sisters, and the father of the dog is the half brother of the mother of my bitch. There is nothing to stop me doing this mating, is there? But why would I want to? I wouldn't be taking the breed forward, nor would I be helping the gene pool. And who knows what problems would occur, if any? They aren't the brother/sister mating that the KC is frowning upon, but IMHO the mating is asking for trouble.

(As you possibly know) Christine,  our girl's second litter was from a mating to her maternal half brother -  the bitch line doubled up on having been highly successful in producing typical and healthy pups with many champion and CC winners among them as is also the case with the two (mainly) unrelated sires of these half siblings. 

If health status in particular is thoroughly researched and the breeders have a wide in depth knowledge of all dogs in the pedigrees then IMO it is the type of mating that I would certainly like to see still being allowed in the future, albeit that it would not necessarily be a common pairing in every breed and (for various reasons) less suitable in some than in others.

regards, Teri

> For many 'occasional' breeders the most important criteria for choosing a stud dog would seem to be it's geographical location or it's winning record. For breeders like that and those with a less than comprehensive grasp of reading a pedigree, being very wary of close inbreeding is no bad thing IMO.

I would strongly agree, though personally I don't think anyone should breed unless they know or have a mentor with a close knowledge of the dogs in a pedigree.

> If health status in particular is thoroughly researched and the breeders have a wide in depth knowledge of all dogs in the pedigrees then IMO it is the type of mating that I would certainly like to see still being allowed in the future,

My feeling is that if your line-breeding on your own bitch you really do know what your doubling up on, as opposed to doubling on an outside stud dog, where you ahve to trust what you are told of find out.

> My feeling is that if your line-breeding on your own bitch you really do know what your doubling up on, as opposed to doubling on an outside stud dog, where you ahve to trust what you are told of find out.

A kind of quality assurance if you will

Its knowing the lines to avoid Linda - thats why I have studied the breed & it's lineage over the years.    If you produce problems in one litter why would you go breed in a similar fashion knowing the same problems could reoccur.

> When novice breeders say 'I've checked the pedigrees and they're fine', whenever I've asked, they always mean they the same name doesn't appear twice on dog or bitch pedigees. :-(&nbsp; That's exactly the sort of mating that I would avoid

Exactly!  And those breeders who get the occasional 'fluke' winner which I would say is more by chance than by research.     And my 'level of winning' is different to those who are happy with open show wins (1sts out of 2 etc) and having dogs that can't win at championship show level.    

Even with the cats I have bought, I have researched the lines and what cats out there I admire.  My latest show acquisition is from an accidental son x mother mating but she oozes breed type and thats why she was lucky to be chosen BOV kitten at her first show!   (The equivalent of winning a Champ show puppy group!).

newfiedreams - yes i can make an opinion regardless of what i know about breeding, an opinion is defined as a personal view or attitude in the dictionary :)  i am very new to the world of showing, and do not intend to enter the world of breeding for a loooooong time (if i ever do) and if i ever did i would watch, listen and learn from a mentor. however, i am also a great believer in mother nature, shes done not bad for millions of years on most things without human interference :) 
i do not want to get into an argument, as i stated in my first post, these are merely my own personal opinions.

Hi Christine long time no see we must catch up soon.

Good debate,  I think  at the beginning we have all learned from good old fashioned breeders its what you learn along the way by not being afraid to ask.
When I started in Labs  along time ago some of  the top breeders and exhibitors would take novices  under their wing and be happy to share the knowledge with them of course no internet then well for me anyway,sadly in some ways some up and coming ones with pretty much instant  success ...say they have  been lucky enough to buy a decent  bitch or dog at the first attempt somehow think they know it all . They  seem to forget a wealth of knowledge and cleverness  in  producing the lines produced the  blueprint for the  dogs of today.
Its always interesting to gain and share our knowledge and of course healthy debate

The RSPCA report, just published, recommends that half brother/sister matings should be banned, as well grandparent/child - so if you want to do it, maybe you should go ahead quickly :)

>Its knowing the lines to avoid Linda - thats why I have studied the breed & it's lineage over the years.    If you produce problems in one litter why would you go breed in a similar fashion knowing the same problems could reoccur.

Exactly what I was trying to say. We have a small gene pool so have to take particular care in choosing a mate, which is why I would not want to double up at this time. Though by going down the same lines (not necessarily brother/sister matings) does help show up a problem, and which line it is coming from, even if you think you know where it comes from. I personally feel that the gene pool has been getting narrower all the time, especially with blood lines not crossing over. Thankfully there is new blood in the country now which will hopefully help us.

> The RSPCA report, just published, recommends that half brother/sister matings should be banned,

Thankfully the RSPCA has no bearing on the KC!

> Thankfully the RSPCA has no bearing on the KC!

No, but their report may well have a bearing on future legislation.

I'd like to add a "disclaimer" before I write this as I have never had a litter, my breed has a small gene pool and I have studied pedigrees for the last 4 years, looked at progeny, now have a mentor and, hopefully, - fingers crossed - I will have my first litter this year after being in the breed 5 years!!!  So, here goes:

Its my understand that outcrossing itself is good for the gene pool in general, but outcrossing all the time can store up problems for the future ie when an outcrossed dog and bitch get mated and both have the same genetic makeup then they can produce puppies with genetic problems.  Now, that might not happen overnight but it will eventually happen if you keep outcrossing (I'm led to believe!) and there is very little likelihood of pinpointing where the problem lies because of all the outcrossing.  This also means that there may be a lot of "carriers" of these hereditary genes that, although showing no symptoms, may produce puppies with problems at a later date and you would end up playing russian roulette every time you bred.  Also, when outcrossing all the time you don't really know what you are going to get in the way of "type".

My little bitch is the result of an outcross but the stud dog I am using will mean I will be "line-breeding".  Not to a great extent because on 2 sides we have outcrosses - but nevertheless I will be line breeding. 

The reason I'm doing this is because I want to improve my little bitche's angulation and head planes and the stud dog owner wants to improve on temperament (he is quite shy, although not overly so, and my girl is very outgoing!).  We hope to produce some lovely puppies because both are beautiful examples of the breed.

My little bitch takes after her mother but if I outcrossed again then I may get puppies of all differing types - which I don't want to do.  I want to improve on what I have (as I will be keeping a puppy and the stud dog owner is hoping to take one too!).

I know what's behind both dogs, and the stud dog owner has been in the breed 12 years so they know a lot more than me.

I hope I've explained this correctly but, as stated above, "disclaimer" if I havent!!!  LOL

Kingdom

> Its my understand that outcrossing itself is good for the gene pool in general, but outcrossing all the time can store up problems for the future ie when an outcrossed dog and bitch get mated and both have the same genetic makeup then they can produce puppies with genetic problems.&nbsp; Now, that might not happen overnight but it will eventually happen if you keep outcrossing (I'm led to believe!) and there is very little likelihood of pinpointing where the problem lies because of all the outcrossing

You have it a little wrong, the reason you would get the problems crop up eventually is that it is almost impossible to keep outcrossing, so sooner or later you will mate two of the out-crossed animals with the same negative traits in their genetics and out will pop the problem, and you won't know where it came from.

This is one reason that many breeders would do a half brother sister mating on any out cross they brought in, and if skeletons appeared in the closet they knew what they were sooner than later, when they may have laid buried for generations, and perhaps become widely disseminated in the gene pool.

Thank you Brainless.  That was what I was trying to say ie that eventually the outcrosses would meet and you'd have no way of knowing where it came from.  Sorry I didnt make it clear.  I'm pleased to know that all my research over the past years is correct and that I'm on the right track.  I know one breeder who will never line breed and always outcrosses.  Before I did my research I thought that was a good thing because you were diluting the genes but I now know differently.  I think this is one of the reasons that people should do lots of research before even contemplating breeding.  It really is a minefield if you don't know what you're doing and the only victims are the puppies.

Thank you for your input.

Kingdom