i bought a pup a month ago, after six days became poorly with rapid heart beat,week later same again lends up in animal hospital,yes week later same again,this time seen by cardiologist who confirmed he has congenitial heart condition and could die at any time.he has to have scan and be put on heart monitor for 48hrs to see what going on and his life expectancy,my story is on health page to cut things short. i spoke to breeder this evening she wont take him back she said its too much hassle,and she wont give us our money back.she has offered us another pup off her other bitches litter for free.she told us to seek legal advise or go to citizens advise,i told her we cant afford that its costing enough to keep pup alive.we do want to help him live a normal life but because he bit our daughters face we wanted advise of her what we could do.

Not sure on the legal side but in your pups defense he is incredibly sick and just a puppy give him some slack for biting.

That's a terrible breeder. :( Does it not say anything in the contract about what happens if the pup cannot be kept or if it gets sick? You can still ask citizens advice as that's free of course. I'd have thought this was a case of a puppy not being fit for the purpose it was sold for, i.e. as a healthy pet. But then apparently that only applies if it is a business. :( Here is the relevant page on Trevor Cooper's website., he is a solcitor wellknown for specialising in dog law: http://www.doglaw.co.uk/legal/contract.php

thank you we will go on and get some advise we dont want to part with him, i did say to her he cant do anything i,e go to stud, go to dog shows. x

yes we give him slack but it is not acceptible to bite a two year olds face,especially if he did it when he was older.

I know you having a hard time of it, but if the poor fellow is barely able to live why is a 2 year old is his face. He wouldnt do it when he was older if you socialised him and trained him and your little girl wouldnt be so little and would know how to behave around a dog, which includes not being in dogs face and being respectful. I doubt it would happen when hes older if whats said is done.

Louise

you need to know circumstances she didnt go near him he went to her and jumped up and grabbed her face it was to quick for anyone to stop it.he is a normal pup for six days out seven,we will socialise him when he is allowed to go to classes ,when he has had scans and we know what is going on.  

> he cant do anything i,e go to stud, go to dog shows. x

Did you buy him as a show prospect?  Did you have a contract to say this? The majority of puppies would be sold purely as a pet.
If this condition was not apparent when she sold him and there was no failure to screen parents for a known problem occuring in the breed I am not sure that you do have any grounds to claim your money back and I think she has been quite fair in offering you a replacement puppy.  I wonder if she is declining to take him back as it will probably negate the insurance.  I think it would be kinder to him and fairer to all if he was put to sleep rather than just pass him back to the breeder to probably the same fate. 

> yes we give him slack but it is not acceptible to bite a two year olds face,especially if he did it when he was older.

But he is the equivalent of a dog toddler & puppies do nip, not in aggression, but it is their way exploring their environs. You need to teach him bite inhibition & not expect him to teach himself. Puppies can & do bite adult dogs & their siblings & are not rebuked for it. For doG's sake he's a young puppy, not an adult dog with aggression problems & you need to be three steps ahead of him & anticipate what he is going to do next.

I've never had a puppy nip/bite me, because I was shown what to look for to prevent the behaviour developing. I co-own two of my dogs & the one who lives with the other co-owner used to nip & mouth her, but he never even tried it on me. I do spend a lot of time bonding with my dogs, using T Touch, massage etc from day one. I wasn't allowed a dog for myself as a child, until I could show that I could raise & train her myself. I was 8 when I was allowed to buy my first GSD

Ali, I should imagine you and your family are entirely frazzled with the horrible time you're having, so deep breath, calm down and just work on ensuring that he learns his manners.

Chin up,

M.

we bought him as pet and thats all he would have been ,would have liked to take him to shows with older children.we had no contract,i just wanted advise of her i wouldnt give him back as i know she would put him to sleep ,we want to give him chance and try treatment if all goes well with scan.vet has said to wait and see what cardiologist says and advises.dont think i would have another pup of her incase we went through all this again.

> i just wanted advise of her i wouldnt give him back

I'm not sure what it is you are asking of her then.  What sort of advise?  I doubt she could advise you better than the vet regarding his condition or treatment.  As far as his biting I would just keep him away from your young child.  It is always difficult with very young children and with his condition it is likely to be even more so when he does not always feel happy to be played with.

The sad truth is she has no legal requirement to give you the money back especially as there is nothing in writing about the sale of the pup, she doesn't sound like a decent breeder I'm afraid and I would think twice about having another pup from her, I'm sorry the money you paid is a lot to lose especially if your pup does have to be PTS through his heart defect, its a very hard and heartbreaking lesson to learn about some people who call themselves breeders,

As I wrote in the other thread your pup may be feeling ill and bite or he just may be being a normal pup and do that anyway because all puppies do until they learn their manners with gentle training, one of my own pups I have right now is a real biter but is just over excited with everything he sees and his teeth is the only natural way he can express things, I am training him out of it by the day,

Go and take advise but I think I know what they will advise you, I suppose you may be able to try and claim through the small claims court but I have my doubts it would get anywhere, I'm sorry.

The best advice rte the totally natural play biting can be found here: http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

I have a 6 months old who gets wired to the stars and has to clamp her teeth around my ankles or her poor grandmothers throat.  time out is the only thing that really works, anything else and she just has a huge paddy.  Getting a lot more self control the older she gets, but over excited or tired and the behaviour continues.

I'm afraid that I wouldn't allow a young puppy access to a 2 years old child except in his very sleepy moments, when you can have some idea what his untrained (at this stage) behaviour will be.
As a breeder, I would be choked if a puppy that I'd produced showed signs of a congenital defect that I wasn't aware of during his time with me, and that I couldn't have tested for.  I always say to my puppy buyers, "I've done the very best, with my knowledge and experience, to produce healthy, good tempered, quality puppies.  But when you're dealing with nature, it can sometimes through up problems that we cannot reasonably expect.  Please insure your puppy for the first 12 months, because that tends to be when these unexpected problems show up".
So far, I've been lucky or clever and not produced anything like this.  But I have sold a beautiful puppy who severely damaged his knee at 16 weeks old, and his family have put him through numerous extensive operations for 18 months, which meant that he has had no socialisation and 'puppy life' at all.  Now, as a 3 year old, he still cannot have normal exercise, is wary of anything outside his home, and to me, doesn't have a decent dog life at all! 
I would not choose to put a young puppy through extensive medical treatment at such a crucial time in their lives and would struggle with my personal emotions but certainly think that putting a seriously defective puppy to sleep would be in the pup's best interest, if not the humans around him. :(
I think that this breeder is being very fair to offer you another puppy, although I also understand your reluctance to take up the offer.

> think that this breeder is being very fair to offer you another puppy, although I also understand your reluctance to take up the offer.

West Coast on the other thread the OP has said the breeder has refused to take the puppy back as its to much trouble, that to me is not a sign of a good breeder and thats why I posted that personally I would be wary of having another pup from her, what decent breeder refuses to take one of their own pups back?

> West Coast on the other thread the OP has said the breeder has refused to take the puppy back as its to much trouble

No disrespect to the poster but I am concious that we are not hearing directly from the breeder :-)  They seem to have been of the opinion that the puppy should be put to sleep to save it from suffering and I wonder if, in fact, the comment about too much trouble was them saying there is no point in it being transported back to the breeder simply to do that.  If the poster wishes to continue with treatments that is their choice but if it is not the breeders choice I would say it is reasonable to suggest not to possibly distress the puppy further by uprooting it again.  It is a very sad situation for everyone concerned.  I understand this is a labrador and I am not aware that this is generally a problem in the breed but I can understand if the poster does not wish to have another puppy from this breeder for emotional reasons.

Quite true Isabel we do only have one side of this very sad story, it would be interesting to hear the breeders views on the matter.

West Coast on the other thread the OP has said the breeder has refused to take the puppy back as its to much trouble,

I would also refuse to take to puppy back to treat it because I sincerely don't think it's the right thing to do and that's nothing to do with being too much trouble.  But I would take it to the Vet for it's final journey if the family didn't feel that they could. :(

The poster here has had a dreadful, emotional time.  It's not always easy to remember or interpret exactly what is meant and said at such a difficult time.  :(

I have to agree with Westcoast on this.  On one thread the OP is saying the breeder will not take the puppy back as it is too much hassle, and on this threas the OP is saying that she knows the breeder will put the pup down.  A toddler should certainly not be playing with a puppy - when mine were puppies they once or twice tried to nip my nose, it is perfectly normal, though not acceptable, behaviour.  If it were me I would certainly be thinking about taking up the breeder's offer.  This puppy has been LOVED, already a better start to life than many other dogs, now perhaps the OP should love the puppy enough to end any future suffering.

> I would also refuse to take to puppy back to treat it, but I would take it to the Vet for it's final journey if the family didn't feel that they could

That is precisely what I would do if the tests showed puppy would have a shortened life with no real quality to it :-(

> I wonder if she is declining to take him back as it will probably negate the insurance.

To the OP I think Isabel is correct regarding the insurance.  If ownership of the dog were to be transferred then the insurance will cease.  The new owner/breeder will have to cover all costs themselves, either the continuing treatment, or the cost of PTS.

Whatever decision you make about treatment or PTS for the puppy it will be best that it be handled from the home he knows, and by his current vets.

Other posters have made good observations about this pups quality of life and the impact his condition and treatment may have on his normal socialisation.  Don't judge him too harshly for biting - some pups explore everything mouth first and excited little people with swinging hair and high pitched voices will always be attractive play things for puppies - they can't help but be stimulated by young children.

hi, it was just advise on how to stop him running and jumping up and mouthing her.most of time she understands to turn her back but he got her on hop this time.she doesnt really do anything with him may rub his back when he passes her,i wouldnt let her.everyone wants me to have him put to sleep,and yes i know this would be an easy option but if after his scan tomorrow he can lead a normal life on tablets im willing to give him a chance,we will speak to cardiologist and see what he says,they dont know how bad things are till scan is done so fingers crossed.x

thank you for advise and the web site ive been on and read it very interesting.we do use the time out on him,especially when he gets to excited and bounces at you.he has huge paddies when we try stop him,if i walk away he barks at me,really cheeky.at moment he is fast asleep at my feet (lovely).he is a good boy at everything so suppose shouldnt complain.