I KNOW THIS IS SORE SUBJECT AND I DONT WANT TO OFFEND ANYONE BUT I WOULD LIKE TO FIND OUT OTHER PEOPLES VIEW ON TAIL DOCKING. I HAVE A BOXER WHO IS UNDOCKED AND TO ME IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHETHER A TAIL UNDOCKED, AFTER ALL IN THE CASE OF BOXERS,DOBERMANS,ROTTIES ETC IT SEEMS COSMETIC REASONS ONLY . WE DONT CROP EARS IN THE UK BECAUSE WE SAY IT CRUEL BUT DOCKING IS ALRIGHT. ISTAIL DOCKING IS BANNED BY SOME VETS IN THE UK.WHY DO SOME VETS STILL DO IT? SURLEY IT SHOULD BE LEGAL OR ILLEGAL OTHERWISE SOME BREEDERS WILL ATTEMPT TO DOCK THE TAIL THEMSELVES. I WOULD BE GRATEFUL FOR EVERYONES VIEWS

Vets are no longer docking the breeds you mention in the UK.  If you have seen some docked examples they are either imported, perhaps from Ireland where many puppy farmers operate or possibly docked by a few individual flouting the law.
Working dogs in England, terriers and gundogs, have continued to be docked by vets under the law if their breeders are able to offer proof that the litter is intended to work, a shooting certificate for instance.
I hope that has clarified the situation for you.

Dave, ditto everything Isabel has said...by the way, could you take the cap's lock off or try not to type in Capital letters please? Ta Dawn ;-)

Our Isabel is very erudite! :-o :-)

sorry ive taken caps lock off and im sorry but when did the law change because on my walks with jay ive  seen alot of dogs with docked tails most under the age of 2 so its obvious breeders (not all) are doing themselves. if i dont pick up jays poo iget a fine so why arent these dog owners being questioned about were they got the dogs tail docked?

The law was enacted in 2007.  As I said, they may have bought them from Irish breeders who are permitted to dock or you may be right and they are flouting the law but it is, obviously, very difficult to prove.

Terriers and certain gundogs can be docked legally (by vets who agree to do it) providing the breeder shows the required proof that they're likely to be used for working. It's not an offence to own an illegally docked dog, though.

Well cosmetically I like the traditionally docked breeds docked.  To be honest most of them now look really mongrelly with the tails on, especially the Dobermans.  Boxers are so distinctive that they just about look OK, and some of the shorter coupled Spaniels look OK.

Of course I have no sympathy with law breaking, and like any crime it would be for the Police to deal with breeders docking illegally.  Unlike the smoking ban though I don't remember seeing any publicity in the non doggy media that docking was banned, so there are probably plenty of Back Yard puppy producers who don't even know it is illegal (after all it had been illegal for anyone but a vet to dock for some years).

Of course if purchasers don't know docking is banned they will continue to buy.

I would not object to docking at all if they used pain killer. I don't believe for one second that the puppy's don't have feeling in there tails for the first week. I have witnessed tail docking and its a horrible thing to do to a little puppy . But if there was some form of pain relief I would not have any problems at all, as I too like the look of some docked breeds. And I know some working breeds need to be docked , but again why no pain killer?

my vet (which is a leading university researching vet) refuses point blank to remove dew claws as it is Unnecessary. i actually agree and do not believe they have no pain reflex for the first week

> I don't believe for one second that the puppy's don't have feeling in there tails for the first week.

I think you have to bear in mind that when a puppy is born it has only been a remarkably short 63 days in the making.  Add to that the way a foetus develops and you have the understanding that is it possible to see that nervous system has not extended down into the tail until some time later. 
Nature has perfected the art of producing young that match the requirements of the species, thus puppies are born after a very short developement to enable the dam to return to hunting to sustain both herself and her offsprings, comparing to other animals such as prey species that must be able to be born capable of seeing and running and therefore spend many times longer to develop.  There is no need for new born puppy to be able to move its tail so the specied has developed concentrating on other things in that very short development time.

> i actually agree and do not believe they have no pain reflex for the first week

Logically, considering again the foetal development, there is feeling present in their limbs and my experience of witnessing the removal of dew claws is that they do indeed react to this (another indication that it is not a lack of ability to respond to tail docking).  However, considering the significant risk of injury if they remain and the considerably larger procedure involved in removing them later, I think the balance lies in removing them personally.  We often put our pets through short term discomfort, ie injections, implants, etc., for a greater benefit.

The pup my not have a reason to use its tail but that dose not mean it cant feel it. Babies don't use there legs but any mum will know they can still feel pain in them. If you pinch a pups tail it reacts , which is enough for me to see the pup can feel it, also hearing a pup cry out as its tail is docked is more than enough to tell me it hurt.whats wrong with giving pain killer to be on the safe side,

but if a dew claw was torn and the dog was injured it is not a big enough injury for the dog to be at risk. yes, the dog will bleed but it certainly isnt life threatening and in all my years of owning several breeds of dog, not one has ever torn a dew claw. I think its quit a recent thing regarding the change of mind with vets with removal of dew claws as i rang around 10 vets on my last litter and out of those 10 only 3 would remove, all said only under 3 days and none would do it after 5. And after considerable advice from my own and several other vets i will now never remove dew claws.

I used to have a Rott some years ago and liked the way she looked with her docked tail, I think the breeds that were previously docked look quite odd now with the exception of Spaniels that look fine with tails, I am now anti docking of course but certainly have great sympathy for all the breeders that spent many years breeding their dogs to get to be as near the breed standard as possible now have to start all over again to get the tail to be carried at a decent angle and not stuck up and over the back which makes the breed look like a crossbreed dog.

surely its just a matter of getting used to the breed looking different, if for example they were never docked and we started to dock now im sure there would be the majority of people saying that they looked better with a tail.

> Babies don't use there legs.

Babies are able to use their legs from the moment they are born thanks to 9 months of development.

> If you pinch a pups tail it reacts

My puppies have all been docked by day 3 and I have never found them responsive to the tail alone being touched only reacting when you actually lift them to do it.

> whats wrong with giving pain killer to be on the safe side,

I would not fancy giving a systemic drug to such a newborn and I can not see the point of giving a local anaesthetic injection because if there was any feeling it would sting horribly.

why no pain killer?
That really made me think because I've never thought about it!

I've seen many pups docked and the only time that I've seen a problem is when it's been done by vets.  They don't even know how to hold a 3 day old pup comfortably! 

I have never seen a pup show any discomfort when it has been banded in the whelping box, in front of the dam, by an experienced breeder who knows what they're doing.  It then drops off cleanly a few days later, just like the umbilical cord.

Indeed it is a matter of getting used to how the breeds now look but still I believe the breeders will be looking to setting a different tail carriage to the ones the now undocked breeds currently display.

> the dog will bleed but it certainly isnt life threatening

Horribly painful once the dew claw has developed as they become connected by bone rather than just cartilage as in the newborn.  Being bone it is also at high risk of infection that is difficult to treat with antibiotics due to limited blood supply so can turn into something very nasty indeed. 

> in all my years of owning several breeds of dog, not one has ever torn a dew claw.

You appear to have been removing them until recently :-D
Perhaps in your breeds it is not entirely necessary, I could not say, but in breeds that are very lively in the field I would say they are at considerable risk.

> the only time that I've seen a problem is when it's been done by vets. 

Like breeders I think it would depend on their experience.  The vet I used was very experienced and was greatly used over a wide area.  Indeed, his journey to me would be over an hour.  I doubt many breeders were as experienced as him.

actually no, i have never removed them, the breed i now have generally have them removed and as it was my first litter at the time i wanted to look into it.
when i was speaking and ringing around the vets to get advice the general concensus was that they very rarely see a dog with a torn dew claw, and if it was to happen obviously a trip to the vet would be in order, however unless that rare instance happens it wouldnt be an issue.

quote (Babies are able to use their legs from the moment they are born thanks to 9 months of development.)
they can't use there legs apart from moving or kicking,
you said
"There is no need for new born puppy to be able to move its tail " there is also no reason for a baby to move its legs, but both can feel pain in them and both will use them more as they get older.

quote (I would not fancy giving a systemic drug to such a newborn and I can not see the point of giving a local anaesthetic injection because if there was any feeling it would sting horribly.)
I think it would hurt less than the tail being cut off. Cant they freeze the tail ? I also wandered if they would feel less if it was done when the pup was feeding as the pup would be in a happy relaxed state.

I also wandered if they would feel less if it was done when the pup was feeding as the pup would be in a happy relaxed state.

That's how I've seen breeders do them, in the whelping box.  But they all tended to band, not cut.  I used to know a blind Yorkie breeder and I would be fascinated to watch his big fingers banding his tiny pups.  He never had any problems. :)

>they can't use there legs apart from moving or kicking,

Human babies are far more developed at birth than newborn puppies. They have their eyes open and they can hear, for starters, whereas puppies are blind and deaf for about another 10 days after birth. Newborn lambs are even more developed, being up on their feet and walking independently within half an hour of birth. Different species are not comparable.

I was not really comparing them, just saying that lack of use of a limb dose not mean lack of feeling.

> they can't use there legs apart from moving or kicking,

That is more than a new born puppy can do with its tail :-).  You need a complete and connected nervous system to facilitate movement therefore the movement demonstrates it is present. 

> I think it would hurt less than the tail being cut off.

Not if there is no nerve development

> Cant they freeze the tail ?

I'm not sure what you have in mind but with no nervous system present no drug or chemical is going to make any difference.

> just saying that lack of use of a limb dose not mean lack of feeling.

You are quite right the reverse of saying movement demonstrates a nervous system need not be true but we also have the fact that puppies do respond to stimulus elsewhere on their bodies and we do have the scientific understanding of the developing foetus to demonstrate that the spinal cord develops from the brain outwards therefore the tail being the final extremity will be the last to develop.

When I had new born pups they all wagged there tails when feeding
quote (I'm not sure what you have in mind but with no nervous system present no drug or chemical is going to make any difference.
I think that do have a nervous system and that the tail feels pain. Look up tail docking on you tube. The puppies on there are crying with pain.
If docking was pain fee there would never have been a ban on it. And if there could have been a way to ashore a pain free docking I don't think there would have been a ban at all

> When I had new born pups they all wagged there tails when feeding

Then you saw something I have never seen in the first few days.

> Look up tail docking on you tube. The puppies on there are crying with pain.

A lot of puppies object to be handled and it will depend on the experience of the handler.  There are also videos available that match my own experience of dockings.

> If docking was pain fee there would never have been a ban on it.

I don't think it was that simple.  Present company accepted :-) the vast majority of people I have heard objecting to it will have had no experience at all they have merely reacted to the thought of it without understanding any of the biology.

If docking was pain fee there would never have been a ban on it. And if there could have been a way to ashore a pain free docking I don't think there would have been a ban at all

Politics!  RSPCA! :(

i dont think its a question of biology isabel i think for working dogs , yes this is acceptable, but for purely cosmetic reasons? this is something that thankfully has been stopped.

>When I had new born pups they all wagged there tails when feeding

Mine have never been able to do more than raise the base of the tail (with the last three-quarters of it dangling limply) when feeding, and then only after several days of life.

>If docking was pain fee there would never have been a ban on it.

It was purely down to people's emotions about it, not the facts. Microchipping hurts some dogs really badly (judging by the squeals) yet that's positively encouraged!

Quote.There are also videos available that match my own experience of docking.
Do you have any, I am doing on going research in to tail docking and as yet cant find a video of a pup having a pain fee docking, so would be greatfull to see some .
Off for my bath now though

> i dont think its a question of biology isabel

Why do you think the biology is unimportant?  I agree with you regarding those breeds where it was purely cosmetic but I do feel all the working breeds should have continued to be docked regardless as to whether they worked professionally as they all enjoy exercise that puts them at the same level of risk.

There is a video on the CDB site.  I think it demonstrates very well the objections each puppy makes to be handled compared to no reaction to the actual banding.

this is something we will never agree with. the reason why americans dock danes ears is they say because they get infections cos they re so large,i have not had any problems with my dogs ears and cockers have large ears and you dont see cockers being docked thankfully. so unless that particular dog is at risk and i dont consider pet dogs to be at risk i cant see that is acceptable i just think it is mutilation.

I don't this compares at all to cropping which is done to a very sensate area at a much more developed age and involves a lengthy recovering period with ongoing uncomfortable treatment and care.

>  i dont consider pet dogs to be at risk

Assuming you are talking about docking here how does a pet dog know it's master is not being paid to exercise him on the same terrain as his working brother?

My working cocker has just finished her first working season (with a tail) perhaps we have just been lucky not to have an injury.  However she has developed a fantastic amount of feathering on her tail which must have protected her tail to some degree.  Her morther who is docked, has almost no feathering.  Her sister who was sent away to be 'proffessionaly trained (before her tail had a chance to feather up) had an injuy while on her proffessional training and had to have her tail removed. (no even to the dock size) she only has about two inches of tail.

Thanks for the clip. Banding seems to be much kinder . I have done some research on banding in the past and it dose seem to be better than cutting off the tail. And having the pups with the mum feeding is better than taking them away. Is there a clip on there of cutting. ?

why are you still looking into docking? this is now illegal unless done by a vet for valid reasons?

Its not illegal for working dogs to be Docked and a friend of mine has just Docked a litter of working spaniels. So as long as Docking is still going on I want to find out the best and most painless way to do it

yeh i know as long they are working dogs, thats fine. sorry i just thought it was for cosmetic thats all

> I don't think it was that simple.  Present company accepted :-) the vast majority of people I have heard objecting to it will have had no experience at all they have merely reacted to the thought of it without understanding any of the biology.

My sons :).

They always say I am cruel because I always say I prefer docked (25 Years with Boxers, terriers and now Spins).
The breeder of my puppy boy docks at two days, which meant I had to choose my pup at that age,(with some guidance from breeder) as he was for showing and therefore couldn't be docked.
Thankfully looks like a good choice and he is shaping up to be a very nice boy ;) with a fantastic temperament and character.

Thanks everyone the response so has been great and im against tail docking (exept for real workers) and im begining to wonder whether a lot of just like the docked tail for no other reason than it looks nice.

The boxers were a long while ago long before the ban, they were all done so did not really think too much about it TBH, and pups never seemed to  experience distress after docking.

With the terriers and especially the Spins, who go through very thick cover, if they are working then yes I would prefer docking for that reason. And although my dogs are only shown at present I am hoping to work them in the future, once I have completed my training :)

Dual purpose dogs aaaahh some day!

Unfortunately they have yet to design  a detachable tail :-D :-O

>im begining to wonder whether a lot of just like the docked tail for no other reason than it looks nice.

That's no different to not liking it because you don't think it looks nice. I personally don't find a docked tail attractive, but I don't think docking is cruel.

i work and breed (not often) gundogs all our littlers are docked by a very experienced vet ,he knows this breed of dog very well , i would never work one of my dogs with docking , have you ever seen what can happen to there tails if bashed or cut up :(

yeh dogs that are worked i can understand however its the ones that are not worked i cant understand, aso it is illegal to do if they are not working dogs!!!

mahonc i understand what your saying but what you have to think is not every gundog will make it so they have to be sold as pets so there will be pet gundogs with docked tails !! as all the litter as to be done at 3days old we dont know witch dog will make a good worker till older !!!

Docked tails are not completely without problems. I have a docked bitch (by an experienced breeder) who has a problem with her tail docking that may be solved by redocking. She has been checked out for anal glands/ other possibilities but it is her tail that is causing the pain. The docking itself is neat without any bone showing but every now and then  she will scream out and then try and bite her tail.