i bought a new pup three weeks ago, five days after having him he started having rapid heart beat we took him straight to vet he didnt know what was wrong but put him on beta blockers he was fine next day,same thing happened last week so we gave him beta blocker again yet again he was fine.unfortunately same again yesterday,we took him back to vet he gave him beta blocker then admitted him to hospital,we were told to expect worst they put him in incubator with oxygen.he was fine this morning but we had to see cardiologist he after examining him says he has congenitial heart condition,they want to scan him but in total comes to five to six hundred pound in total after all his treatment today,we have to see if our insurance will cover him before we go ahead.he will require medication for rest of his life and possibly surgery which the op has only been done five times so its new and will cost between five and six thousand pound.he has to go on heart monitor for 48hrs at home if he chews monitor it will cost us two thousand to replace and it comes from scotland,and he has to go to edinburgh for surgery as they only do it there.we bought him to show and had thought about putting him to stud but that wont happen now.where do i stand with the breeder do i keep him or does he have to be returned we love him loads, what would u do?

Oh , how heartbreaking for you .
Have you contacted the breeder for advice and to let them know ?

Im so sorry to hear of your situation.  It is so very sad. 
What does your contract say about things like this? Does your contract cover the fact that the dog was bought as a show dog, not a pet? 

Also , does your pup have insurance ?

I am very sorry to hear of your poorley pup. It matters not one jot if he was bought to show or just as a pet he should be in good health and obviously is not. You must contact the breeder and see what they say, I would hope that a good breeder will refund your purchase price and let you make a desision on what to do with him. Think very carefully as to wether you feel you can continue with a pup that is (By the sound of it) going to have a poor quality of life. You may find the breeder will refund you and take him back and have him PTS. I think you must have some serious thought about this. If he was an older dog who you have had for years then I would say go ahead but he is a baby puppy with a less than poor chance of a happy life. Would it be right to subject him to a life of operations and ill health?
You have my hugs and thoughts it's not a nice place to be but I feel you have some very hard desisions to make.
Aileen

Dose the vet know what the final out come will be,? Will the pup need help the rest of his life or will the treatment make him better?

YOu don't have to return him to your breeder BUT I believe you should, even though the vets are saying this is a congenital defect ie not inherited they, if they are responsible breeders, should be looking to do their own investigations with specialists of their choice as it could have a bearing on their breeding program.

This is potentially a life long problem which isn't always easy for a new owner to cope with, if however the defect is untreatable or unmanagable a responsible breeder would want to make that deicision for him rather than put new owners thru the trauma - well that would be my wish maybe I'm just a big softie but I'd be distraught if this was one of my babies and would want to be the one with them at the end as I was at the beginning if that was the best course of action.

Personally I would give you a full refund and expect to have the pup back to deal with his problems and his future whatever that maybe.

we have contacted the breeder but she never mentioned anything about brefund or taking him back,we have six wks free insurance,we are in such a dilemma i dont mind not puttting him to stud it was just a thought whether we would have done it not done that kind of thing before,i did think about taking him to show would have been good for kids,but we mostly wanted him for pet.what makes it worse the cardiologist said it is mostly labradors that suffer with this but its rear and especially at his age first lab pup he has seen so young with it.we have been told while he not on medication he could die at any time it is heart breaking.we just have to hope insurance company pay up.i dont want to have to be the one to put him to sleep.

I too think you should go back to the breeder, given its congenital they need to know. I also hope they would refund your money given the serious condition of the pup- although these things happen.

It sounds as though there are an awful lot of interventions to be done (the business of chewing the very expensive heart monitor would surely be covered by the vet hospitals own insurance- given its purpose?). I think I would want a number of opinions on the likely outcome of just treating him with medication before going with these very expensive interventions. Have they actually explained what they think the problem is or have they little idea until the scans and monitor tests are done? 

Of course you love him but it is really important to think with your heads and not with your hearts. It might be kinder to let the little lad go if he is just going to be subjected to loads of medical procedures with no guarantees at the end.

I feel for you. This is an awful position to be put in, sometimes though I think we have to go with mother nature and accept that some little lives are not meant to be. I just feel that you haven't got enough information to make a decision yet. A good chat with your vet may help if you explain that you are not sure what to do for the best- not to mention the huge costs- and to go through various options with you. You might also try to get a second opinion.
I do hope your breeder gives you complete support and helps you to reach a decision that you feel comfortable with.

Finally, remember that whichever way you go your pup will be put under GA, so, his experience of that will be the same whatever you decide.

I do hope this does not seem harsh or uncaring, I think you have a difficult decision to make.

the hard bit is i dont know if i could part with him we are heart broken over this he loves us and we love him ,i would feel we were letting him down.we are big softies in this house.

> even though the vets are saying this is a congenital defect ie not inherited

Congenital just means present at birth - can either be inherited (genetic) or acquired in utero.

Almacwicks - a good breeder should take him back, and take responsibility for him, if that is what you want. The specialists are obviously the ones best able to give you the information about what he would need doing and the likely outcome, but from what you have written it doesn't sound very promising unfortunately. :-(

I got a puppy who turned out to have a heart murmur - fortunately his turned out not to be serious, but I had already made my decision that he would not undergo major operations etc if they turned out to be needed as I personally felt it wouldn't be the best course of action for him.  I had also bonded with him and knew I wouldn't be able to return him to his breeder even though I knew that would have been the wisest course of action had it turned out to be serious.

Despite having said that, I think the best course of action would be to return him to the breeder - you should not be the one that has to deal with this heartache when the vets have said the condition has been present from birth. I really feel for you. :-(

hi, again i was on other message about him biting ,the cardiologist examined him today and said the blood is notgetting pumped round his body,it is to do with the electrical signals and the chambers not having time to fill up with blood and pump round it is rear and only older labs that get it not pups.they need to do more scans,they have explained butstill need scans and monito to see how his heart reacts in everyday life but he is confident that what it is

Once you have found out as much as possible and you are across all the options and likely outcomes you can then really think and decide what will be best for him. After all you cannot be with him whilst he is being operated on and for a fair part of his recovery and that will be tough on you too.

Armed with information you can really decide what route is best for him and will cause the least suffering and distress. I don't think you are being softies. You have a lot to take in, big decisions to make and you are driven by your desire to protect the little lad. All I'm saying is don't feel pushed down a certain avenue. Major surgery and interventions may not be the best option for him if the odds are low. If the odds are high and he can expect a good quality of life after surgery then that makes more sense for him. But you don't have the answrs to these questions yet. I think you need a long chat with your breeder and your vet.

im torn cause dont know whether to take chance and try tablets and hope he lives a good a life he can but if tabs dont work he will need open heart surgery which will improve the prob and cur it but it costs thousands and because it only been done five times its new and just in trial so expensive the cardiologist said hopefully tabs will work for few years by then heart surgery will have been done on few dogs so be cheaper.it will be fun when heart monitor comes from stirling next week trying to stop him chewing it it has been only used on older dogs and they havent chewed it

yes i think your right,we have to wait for monitor to come down from scotland so hopefully next week we will know mor we will also see cardiologist then to.we have a fantastic vets surgery here. luckily we havent   had to pay for today yet its up to 600 pd already, plus it was two hundred last night for him to spend night in hospital so god knows how much it will be with scans we are insured but they dont know if they will pay yet still deciding yikes.

I have been having a think about this and trying to put myself in your shoes.

Although I agree the breeder should be kept informed and be involved (and I would hope any reputable breeder would offer to refund and take the pup back) I would want to be making the decisions for myself.  My feeling is that I have taken on the responsibility for my dogs quality of life and that I should be the one to decide how that life be lived.  I would wait until I had full possession of the facts, as much as that is possible, and I would allow myself to be guided by the vet and the breeder before making any decisions. 

I think that if I gave him back to breeder to decide his fate I'd be copping out of my responsibilities and might always wonder if I did the right thing.  Dont rush.

If your decision is going to be governed by any financial consideration then that too must be assessed.  Do look long and hard at the policy you have.  Are you still on the breeders 6 week insurance?  If you wish to claim for treatment you will need to make sure you continue the payments on this policy or you may fall foul of the pre existing condition clauses.  If you have taken a separate insurance then check you are not within 14 days of the start date or again it may be counted as a pre existing condition.

What a terrible situation to find yourself in - love to you and your puppy xxx

Didn't you get a contract from your breeder for this puppy?   That should clearly state the position regarding returning the puppy to the breeder. 

Hope that you manage to sort poor puppy out!

You may find that insurance will not cover this condition as it may well be classed as a pre-existing condition present from his birth. What a sad situation for you all :-(

I think discuss the insurance issue with your vet sooner rather than later. Dogs a babe is right, you need to be across your insurance right now. The last thing you need is to find yourselves financially overstretched.

(and I would hope any reputable breeder would offer to refund and take the pup back)

Just to say, a reputable breeder would refund the purchase price and let the owners decide what to do, i.e. if they want to keep the pup AND have the money back they should let them.

I don't know the answer, but I just checked Pet Plan's 6 week insurance (assuming this is it) and they pay up to £4000, but it does not say anything about not paying for anything present at birth, it talks about anything that showed SIGNS before the cover started. So hopefully they will pay.

> You may find that insurance will not cover this condition as it may well be classed as a pre-existing condition present from his birth. What a sad situation for you all :-(

I would have thought that would be the case even though the current owner didn't know it was present.  If the vet is saying congenital then I would imagine the insurers would say there is no chance of it being covered - unless it is a policy that states this is only relevant if you know about it and don't declare it.

how tragic, I wouldn't want to have to make the decision as it is not easy making decisions when there is emotional attachment  (((hugs))) to you all.  I am sure  you will make the right decison for you but I would agree with the others about not financially overstretching yourself.  In the current climate when many of us are wondering how to pay the mortgage, the added stressors of complimentary therapies to assist any medical treatment or having to stump up for medical treatment when the insurance won't pay anymore is a burden that you could do without and TBH the longer you have him the harder the decision will be to make.

I would have thought that would be the case even though the current owner didn't know it was present.  If the vet is saying congenital then I would imagine the insurers would say there is no chance of it being covered - unless it is a policy that states this is only relevant if you know about it and don't declare it.

See what I said above about PetPlan. If there were no signs of it, the pup is covered.

> I don't know the answer, but I just checked Pet Plan's 6 week insurance (assuming this is it) and they pay up to £4000, but it does not say anything about not paying for anything present at birth, it talks about anything that showed SIGNS before the cover started. So hopefully they will pay.

It was Petplan my pup with the murmur had the 6 wks free on and they paid out. It was nothing like that sort of amount though.

I was typing at the same time as you marianne :) good news though.

I probably missed something but why was this serious condition not picked up when the breeder had the pup vet checked prior to it leaving?  Surely it would have shown something.

I feel so sorry for you. This is a new owners  worst night mare. And the very reason why breeders need to do what ever it takes to breed only  healthy pups,(though I don't know if the breeder was at fault in this case)   I know its heart braking for you and in the end all you can do is decide what's best for the little chap. Big hugs

It is heart breaking, lets hope you are fully insured. I wonder if he had a heart mummer. If so I wonder why it wasn't picked up at the check up, before he was sold. If the vet said he could go at anytime, that is awful ,it would be horrid for the person who found him. You would keep wondering if he was in pain or suffered. So It may be better to be brave and make a decision, to hold and love him and let him slip away in a deep sleep. (pts)  Loosing any dog you love at any age is heartbreaking. Be brave if you love him for him, God bless.

Denese

Denese,
think the pub has some kind of serious arrythmia problem, something awry in the electrical circuits of the heart, which would account for sudden increased heart rate. The heart is not working properly and therfore blood and oxygen is not getting around the body, as it should.

Freelancerukuk,
That is even worse, If he was my baby pup I could not let him go through that.
Thanks for explaining.

Denese

What a sad situation, if after you have all the facts you can have it looks like your boy will have a restricted and unwell life then it would be kinder to let him go now, I'm so very sorry for you to have to make such an awful decision just a few weeks after getting your boy, I also agree the breeder should offer a refund to.

if the breeder had the pups vet checked by her vet, surely he would have picked this condition up ? something like this does not just happen overnight I wouldn't think.

I know if my vet picked anything like that up in a pup before it went to its new home, it would stay with me and not be sold.

Sometimes there are no clinical signs until the heart can no longer overcompensate.

I would return the pup immediately to the breeder and leave the responsibility with the breeder.  Dogs come under the sale of goods act and you can return for a full refund. Do it quick!

It is only 3 weeks, 2 weeks from now you'll be ok, if you wait you'll never be able to let go, I can say this from looking in from the outside with no emotional attachment, for you I know it will be different, harder and more painful.

But I would take the pup back and look again.

Please be careful not to get into large financial trouble over this pup , i know that this must be tugging at your heart strings but you have to take a step out of the situation and look at it with a clear head .  You need to think about how much you can afford if insurance doesn't pay , but also how your pup is feeling as these arrythmias are uncomfortable to experience and quite frightening.

Did you find your breeder through the breed club and have you thought about asking them for advice ?
Perhaps someone could provide a link for you .

The only problem is the breeder is not responsible for all of these potential bills which could quite believably run into thousands, the pup if from a reputable breeder, (which as bought as a show and potential stud I percieve it is) will most probably be on it's 6 weeks free insurance at present, therefore not on a full years insurance also meaning after the 6 weeks insurance the possibility that insurance will be refused afterwards or at the very least charged at a very excessive rate. From what I am reading this isn't a puppy murmur that can disipate, it really does appear to be serious with possibly life long consequences.

If the breeder has just been unlucky and the lines are clean and past siblings have had no problems then the breeder is not responsible for the health issues of the pup, it is quite simply bad luck meaning that no law is going to be able to force payment for treatment, (the breeder may well be extremely moral and offer to pay but when thing run into thousands it is asking a lot)

Legally the pup can be returned for a full refund as the stock is faulty (sorry sounds terrible saying it like that, but it is a fact)  I say do it quickly as the 6 weeks free insurance will be running out in 3 weeks time, the breeder would be liable to give a full refund at present, as time goes by that may well change.

If our OP keeps the pup then all future charges will be her responsibility, just as if returned they become the breeders. You keep the pup your liable for it.

When we buy a pup we wish it to be healthy and fit for the purpose we want it for pet, potential show, working dog, 3 weeks in we have a potentially very sick pup here, IMO the pup needs to be returned no one needs to or should take on an unhealthy pup, there will be months of worry, cost, potential heartache a pup should grow into a dog and be a part of our lives for the next 10-20 years.

This is extremely sad, but alimackwicks shouldn't have the burden of it and should have a pup that is healthy. IMO you sometimes have to push down that heart of ours and listen to our heads.

I think that if the insurance will pay then you should follow your heart, and give the pup a chance.

My head says return the pup, but I would keep him, if he was suffering I'd have him put down, but as a person with money (Id give the pup a chance I would find it diffecult to forgive myself if I didnt) But I would not bring my family into financial trouble. Im lucky Im ok in life so I'd try it, but with no ins and possibly you have young children Id try and get a fit puppy for your family to love.

I could not return any animal I loved and know it would be pts. But I admit Im an old softy, when our hamster got ill we spent a fortune and had the vet put it down we just couldnt.

I mentioned this earlier and it is an obvious point but it has helped me to make difficult decisions in the past. Ali just needs to remind herself that as far as the pup is concerned GA (which it will need for any operation) and PTS are the same experience for the pup in that moment.

If any life is going to involve a significant amount of surgical intervention and pain with a high risk of failure, then PTS is a reasonable option, in my view. It is a personal decision but should be made with the head and what is best for the pup.

Has the breeder actually shown any interest? Ali's post earlier didn't give me that impression, although excuse me if I am wrong.

This is such a dilemma - heart versus head - all of our hearts would like to do what is best for the pup ourselves, having accepted them in to our lives.

The 'head' suggestion would probably involve taking the pup back to the breeder for a full refund, in the hope that it might make them take care to reduce any likely recurrence and avoid further pups and families suffering. I appreciate that it may not be the breeder's fault if it's not a known breed problem, so that is not implied - but we all know that there are a lot of uncaring breeders out there who may just repeat the mating several times if they do not feel any pain from the problems as it has all been passed to the new owners.

Easier said than done when faced with a pair of big brown eyes though, I very much appreciate that.

M.

I agree with Merlot.  Also as It is  a congenital condition Insurance will not cover.

we bought him as pet but wanted to let the children show him so was optional but he cost a lot there was no contract,

we got kennel club insurance thats it the six wks free the breeder has been in touch and has advised maybe best to get him pts, her other bitch is having pups in march and that we could have one free, but its not that easy he is still our baby and i dont know if i could replace him straight away if he had to be pts we going to talk to vet this nxt wk and get advise our  heads are so mixed up

didnt know there was such thing as contract for buying a puppy do people just breed for money whats it coming to when u got to have contracts

>whats it coming to when u got to have contracts

No, you misunderstand. Contracts show that the breeder cares about the puppies and their future, and wants the new owner to recognise that. Contracts are used by the caring breeder.

no its periodic he is normally ok for about a week then he just goes down hill he had his first jab at breeders vet so i would have thought he was checked. when he is well u wpuldnt know anything was wrong its a difficult one insurance company have been on to breeder we had him six days when this started he was then ok for five days poorly for one then poorly again six days later thats when it had to be looked into deeper,so stressful

ok sorry about that  ,no we didnt have one then.x

you have got it spot on that is what is happening,then his heart beats very fast we going to speak to vet we need to know if his life will be normal on medication and if he is suffering when he is unwell.he is so gorgeous its heartbreaking.

A puppy sales contract will typically tell you everything about the puppy: its breeder's name and contact details; names of sire and dam; date of birth, registration number; dates of worming, with what product and batch number; what health tests have been done; an agreement by the purchaser that they will contact the breeder if at any time they want to breed from the dog; if they at any time need to rehome the dog .... etc etc.

It shows that the breeder isn't the sort of person who denies all responsibility as soon as the money has changed hands and the puppy left the premises.

no we wont bring the family into financial trouble,it vwould be easy for us to take pup back but that is a cop out we know the breeder would put him to sleep.we have young children one of them has serious medical condition and requires a tracheostomy and oxygen so u can imagine what its like here at  moment we got him to help her along as well which he does she uses all her sign language since he came along and the children love him we are foster carers.

we got sheets paper with details on and certificates and hip and eye score results from dam and sire butno agreement she is lovely and been in touch,she offered us another pup from her other dogs litter,this pup is the mums first litter

Have the insurance agreed to pay out? How very terrible for you.

Did you have him checked by the vet when you brought him home?

Louise