Hi everyone, I came across the debate going on between germanic and english typesthat was posted, way back in July, by chance, I know that I am fetching the subject up again, but I decided to have my say anyway. I have had shepherds fo 14 years, the first one that I got was very much an English TYPE, BUT NOT overdone, he did not have a weak saggy back, was not overdone in bone and build, and could quite easily have worked all day without tiring, his temperament was excellent. the second one was a german bred dog he came through Ch Cito, he didn,t have a roach back. but I have to say, he was very excitable, we went to a show with him and at that time I did not know that there was a split, anyway it was a german type show that we ended up at.mY DOG WAS LAUGHED AT BY SOME OF THE TOP NAMES that are still showing now, needless to say he didn,t get anywhere, BUT this dog under other judges and other shows won. I still have shepherds now, and MY type are middle of the road ie half english and half german breeding
I believe some of the german dogs, and bitches i e , without the hump are beautiful dogs, and have much to offer the heavier type English, and vice versa, I have seen some german dogs look half starved, to give the impression of firmness, who are they trying to kid, some have no bone or substance, and some of the english have too much neither could do a days work on the fells. I came out of showing for 7 years, and have recently started again, more fool me, and the divide is stronger now than it ever was, the same owners and handlers are winning on both sides, things will never change. The disadvantages on both sides of the camp seem to me, to be that neither will accept change, and stick to breeding the same type that they have always bred, regardless of roach back, or overangulated, overbuilt dogs, neither of which the standard calls for. Look at the dogs years ago IE AVON PRINCE, VAGABOND OF BRITTAS, DELRIDGE ERHARD GEROLF OF BRITTAS. ROZAVEL WYATT,just to name a few they didn,t have roach backs, nor were they too heavy, just a nice middle of the road type.The split that has occured over the years is down to breeders At the end of the day it is down to breeders to study the standard and look critically at their stock, and see where they can improve, Another point that was mentioned is double handling well that has also gone on for years, and will never change, I have seen some of the top handlers on both sides of the camp. shout loudly to the dogs owners telling them where to stand or squeak toys, and owners frantcally tearing around the outside of the ring. QUITE FUNNY to watch them really, but when someonel else does it they are the ones that complain, maybe they dont like the idea that they might get beaten, my other objection whilst I am on a high, is that some judges put their friends dogs up, regardless of what type they are, and usually, are not the type that they have themselves, favour for a favour rings true, I travelled for miles this year I am not going to say who the judge was, or where the show was, but the type that was put up, was definetly NOT the type that they have, how do you work that one out, you dont put one type up one day, and another the next. like I said earlier favour for favour Dont anyone think that I am favouring one type or another I AM NOT there are faults on both sides, all we can ask for is a nice balanced shepherd as correct to the standard as we can get, without the faults that have appeared over the years on both sides, and if it means english and german breeders getting together to sort it out than so be it, if the drastic split carries on much more than there is only one thing that will suffer and that is the GSD. Anyway I will close now like I have said sorry to fetch this subject up yet again. But I felt I had to air my views

Janines,
I found out yesterday that here in Germany there's a definite split between GSD's owners of certain body types too :rolleyes: So I guess the battle is everywhere, including the homeland. ;)
I just was shocked to discover that 'top' puppies can be sold upwards from 5,000 -10,000 euros!!!!
Oh, I'm not a GSD fancier, so I can't really explain the gory details as a third party, sorry. It really confused me when I had two people arguing over what body profile was superior, especially when they lost their tempers and switched from English to very speedy German :) :D

I don't know if I am correct, but it seems that for years at General Championship shows GSDs just didn't olace in muxed company. The last couple of years there appear to be some GSDs which to my eyes look to be middle of the road whcich are doing really well. Also the entries at General Champ shows do not reflect the popularity of the breed, it seems almost like they have their own show world! There seem to be Germanic shows, and English type shows, and maybe the owners of each type are happy with that situation.

Myself I have met one of the GSDs who has won at Group level, as he won the Veteran stakes on the day my bitch won the final of the Ch stakes at Windsor. He was a calm dignified animal, with definately someone home when you looked in his eyes. He was not overdone in anyway!

I agree with you. there is a definite split, between the two types at show level open as well as champ shows, and the middle of the road dog you refer to I know you didn,t mention his name but I think I know who you mean is a nice example of the breed, and was worthy of his title, again if it is the dog that I think you mean, he comes from german and english lines, and is a nice middle of the road type, also his father won consistently at group level before him. That was what I meant in my previous post, the english side have a lot to offer the german side, and vive versa, and I also mean good specimens of their type, not the badly angulated ones, nor the roach backs. I read in earlier postings of the july saga, that roach backs have disappeared NOT TRUE I saw one two weeks ago, I know that a lot of the german breeders do not have this problem, and I am certainly not slandering any german dog, in fact my own lines have german in them, what I am saying is that a lot of breeders onboth camps, do breed unsound dogs in whatever shape or form and it is them that we have to blame for the situation that we are in now, There are wonderful examples of both types, with coming out of the breed for 6 years, when I decided to start showing again, it was really difficult to know which judge to enter under, as a few had changed camps and gone one extreme way or the other. Like I said before how can you like and breed one type for years, and then suddenly change and go the other. I started again with the type that I had 14 years ago, and my two young bitches still go back to the same line as they did then. Istill believe that a shepherd, should still be able to move effortlessy, do a days work if they have to. forget the glamour of a show ring they still a working breed after all

For me there is nothing more glamourous than an effortlessly moving, well muscled, confident, regal physically and mentally sound dog in gleaming condition. :D

EXACTLY my point, I think you misunderstand me, I love the Shepherd and truly is one of the most regal dogs of all times, but what is the point of having just a glamorous dog of any breed in the ring, if it cannot do the job, that it was bred to do, we might as well forget about any breed standard and throw the towel in, and just put any dog to any bitch. There is nothing more wondeful to watch than a properly constructed shepherd gaiting around a ring, with the forward reach and rear drive that it is indeed suppposed to have, and there are quite a few at the moment ta rea joy to watch,but on the other hand, there are some that move appalingly. the shepherd is SUPPOSED to have an effortless gait, but if it is not constructed properly how on earth can it move the way it is supposed to

qactually I was agreeing with you, it is the fitness and mental outlook of the dog that to me is real glamour, not glamour in the hair styling sense :D

SOZ, Iam PLEASED that someone does agree with me

Hi
I agree too, however the German and English are so far apart and also the beliefs between the two sides are so far apart that never the twain shall meet.
I don't know about the English, but the German side are bringing in a fair few new lines , primarily VA dog lines, of which most are beauts ,they have all obviously gained sch qualifications and are being used widely in Germany and abroad based on their progeny.
The German type still has a way to go, but in my opinion the German type breeders are trying to enhance the breed with more substance, and bone but making sure that the athletic working side is not altered in any way. After all this is what they were ' designed ' for. As far as the sieger, vice sieger and the several VA dogs this year, I can't say that any lack bone,substance or working capabilities and they certainly don't have roach backs.
I have German breeding in all my dogs, I carefully chose them, none of them are skinny , none of them have roach backs, they all have good bone and good temperaments....so I spose you could say they're more like middle of the road....ha ha. Why do we always go round in circles with this breed. :(
We have the bad English type..the English to middle of the road...the middle of the road....middle of the road to German...the German...the bad German type...How many times is this breed split ??
I have shown at all different shows, open and Champ and have seen dogs which fit into all of the above catargories,..it's a nightmare .
Lets hope one day it all becomes clear !! ;)
Tracey

Still the debate goes on and still we are mutilating our greatest breed. No GSD should be bred from unless he or she has attained the Schutzhund III. This is a guarantee to the dog being fit for the purpose it was bred.

DO you have Shepherds and are yours trained up

I must admit that not everyone likes Schutzhund. I for one, and by and large GSD's are not kept these days for the purpose for which they were originaly bred for anymore than the average gundog.

John

here here john, i was not going to get involved in this thread as i have very strong feelings about this breed,original purpose bred for herding and guarding flocks of sheep not manwork this breed has been seriously exploited over the years, i found it interesting in one of the breed notes, on attending the sieger that the dogs that are shown in the ring are very different to those that are bred to do the job that they were bred for, so when does improvment on the breed or breeds become total change?????,regards tina

Hi Aoife
:) Thanks for your post re Bombom :)
I'm not going there again :) :)
There are so many different views on all aspects with GSD's that the least said the better.No one will convince the other in views and we know what animosity it can cause,
Lets just agree that they are a beautiful,loyal,intelligent breed which has unfortunately had the dabblings of the human race to contend with.
:) please people lets put this one to bed, and let sleeping dogs lie :)
PLEASE

well said tracey, post should of not been dragged up,as you say let sleeping dogs lie, hope you are well and that bom bom is well and getting back to normal after his ordeal, do you find it hard sometimes not to reply to certain things though, craigy's post just made me want to post, regards tina

Hi Aoife
I was sooooo tempted to get involved , I almost had to tie my hands up to stop the typing...:)
Schutzund I don't believe is required for breeding ! That's all I'm saying ;)

Bombom is fine thanks and back on my bed :) where he should be.Well and eating lots , bless him :)

hi tracey,
glad all is well, am now sitting in a straight jacket, with everthing tied that can be tyed, and cellotape around ones gob, maybe a troll on patrol, regards tina

Ok, you all strongly disagree. I believe that Schuzthund exercises a dogs mind and body and the fact that hip scores take place for competition simply means that you are doing the very best that you can to ensure that the puppies are fit and healthy.

Schutzhund is not just 'man work' the vital component is obedience and temperament, making sure that the GSD is well mannered and under control in this increasing anti dog society.

My firt GSD I purchased 40 years ago and have owned many since. The saddest was a 15 month old male who had to be destroyed due to hip dysplasia and arthritis. Bred for looks and size and of course sloping hips, he would have won many prizes in the show ring. However, this did not help comfort my two little girls who lost their best friend far to prematurely that caused many tears from my girls who were seven and nine at the time.

My point is that health, physical and mental should be the priority not looks. If you can answer that in your kennels it is, then excellent. The fact that all of us 'Shepherd Entusiasts' cannot agree surely is not helping our breed. Dare I mention that in my Kennels I have two white GSD's. I do not breed from them, but they have a hipscore of 2 and 6 and have both qualified and competed in Schutzhund and have attained SCH III.

Please do not reply. I will not be attending this site any further.

:) i KNEW IT WOULD END IN TEARS :(
Still it only goes to show that we are passionate about our dogs. :) All we need to do now is get rid of all the faults :) :) :)

I presume you are a breeder?

Shutzhund I never knew that is what they were origanily bred for, I always read that it was for hurding. Doesn't that keep the dogs in shape in mind and body. I have watched Shutzhund and found it interesting, but in the wrong hands couldn't that dog be a time bomb since they are no longer pets but soldiers. How would a boston Terrier do at that, or are they to small? :D Just curious. I was watching it the other day and there was a guy from Regina (it was in Edmonton) his dog semed to do pretty good. I noticed alot of dogs couldn't control themselves and still went to give the bite even when they were told not to, matter of fact they all pretty much did and of course they lost points. Is that a real problem with this sport? I know it brings out the aggression in a dog and you must have your dog under total control. ( I think I'm talking about the same thing, if not just ignore me :( )
:( sorry for bringing it up.

No that is not what they were originally bred for. They were bred to herd, but seeing as I do not have a herd of sheep, I have to find other ways to occupy their mind. Just as you do with agility and flyball. I have also worked shepherds in both of those sports as well as scent hurdling. Schutzhund training is based on obedience and socialisation. My seven GSD's are frindly to all and all other dogs. They are exercised daily with horses and past sheep fields and when my daughter brought a pet rabbit in to the house, they all accepted it. They are brought up with extreme socialisation processes to ensure that well developed adults progress. They attack as a sport. They cease the attack on the padded sleeve on command and will happily play ball with the 'helper' immediately they are instructed to 'come off'. As I said the main focus is obedience in all situations. They are a guarding breed and this is utilised by protection training. My main focus is keeping my dogs healthy and fit. Friendly and well mannered. If you are going to keep dogs in the home, the least we as owners can do is to look after their mental and physical well being, train them, look after them and love them.

Please do not reply. I will not be attending this site any further.

Well, Craigy, apparently you are still 'visiting'. But I can't understand why you wouldn't return. Is it because you don't like others to disagree with your opinion in this matter? Or did you appear for a day or two to stir stuff up on purpose and then will retreat in accordance to some plan?
Interesting.

methinks I spy an old familiar and resurrected troll :rolleyes:

The message, my darling, said... please do not respond. Trouble is they did. I dont know what you can smell, but it sure aint me. Lets stick to a topic that we all feel passionate about shall we rather than exchange personal insults. Love Ya!

There wasn't anything insulting in the post by toodles, unlike the one posted by you, with a sarcastic tone.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, we agree and disagree, if you don't like the tone/nature of the post, then don't reply to it.

Ah, so it's not the message which is important...it's the fact that you have to have the last word. I see :Rolleyes:
Now I know why you were arguing about something that didn't make any sense on another thread. The lightbulb glimmers.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't love 'ya' and have no intention to :Rolleyes:
But the more you write, the more you remind me of a certain 'aged' male on here who pushed the boundaries of polite discussion...especially towards the female gender. I wonder if he's your friend. Hmm.

I look forward to your reply, especially since I KNOW you won't be able to NOT have the last say :P

ROFLOL :rolleyes:

Hi Eog, yup reminds me of our late friend but he said he owned dobermanns didnt he .... but then again .....??
Gina

Yeah, he 'supposedly' owned dobes, but he was also very opinionated about GSDs and Schutzhund training :rolleyes:

Well give me his number!! Sounds a sensible chap! At least ive sturred up your passion, soon i'll go and then like an osterich, you can stick your head back in the sand. Life aint all roses and skipping through the cornfields, As much as we would all like it to be.

What a load of rubbish you've just written there. Passion? Nope, you are nowhere near stirring that in me. Disgust and annoyance.... perhaps... similiar to something I'm scraping off of a sole.
Hmmm, even you predict what I believe --- that you'll soon vanish like your alter-ego....yep. Individuals like you and (you) don't stay around too long. Hmmm, memories of Ben Franklin perhaps... fish?

BTW, no, I don't think that life is or even should be smelling like roses. I wouldn't advise skipping through cornfields, the liquid manure the farmers use is sourced from pigs. Nasty stuff, especially when spraying in the evening aire.

I can not believe you childish attitude. I am speaking with passion and knowledge. I have not been on here before, but continue to believe that only one person can feel as strongly as I do if you wish.

If you do not agree my points, argue them with me? Do not result to personal insults about some one that you do not know. Believe me darling, You wanna swap insults. I can do that. Bigtime.

Just a note to let people know EVERYONE is entitled to theri own opinions, there is NO need for any bitterness between anyone, when I started the thread, I had came across the debate, in July it seemed that everyone had some sort of opinion, the point that I tried to get across if you read the first post, is that each of us that breeds or works or shows Gsds, should be striving to improve the breed, ie with temperaments, hips, epilepsy etc, all we can ask for is a sound in mind, and healthy comapnion. We are all supposed to love the shepherd thats why we are here , how can we improve if we cant agree, I know that there will always be opposing views on the correct type of shepherd, its been going on for years, and will continue for many more.

Here Here. Well said. Why cant we all decide on what is best for the breed? Wanna see my white ones?

whites aren,t called for in the standard

So?

Wrong again...Your message said"Please do not respond- I SHALL NOT BE VISITING THIS SITE ANYMORE"

Wow you're clever, I didn't think you were "attending" this site any more....

He craves the final and ultimate word, Bethie.... he'll be on until the thread is removed by Admin :) :D :)