PDE Releases Extended Footage of German Shepherds

This brought it home to me and tears to my eyes to see our wonderful breed reduced to this on film-

http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/1791/pedigree-dogs-exposed-filmmaker-releases-extended-footage-of-german-shepherds/

My lad was mid 90's breeding, he was solid in the hindquarters, until he slipped a disc in his spine at 10 yr old.  After recovery, the similarities between his hind quarter movement and the link above are frightening.  That said, let him of the lead and away he'd go bounding as I'm sure these dogs will be able to do too, gallop and canter etc, etc.  It's amazing how the body can improvise with a disability. 

But this is nothing new; it's something we've been aware of in the showline GSD for some time notwithstanding PDE and it's been getting worse with each generation.

All in the name of a side gait, shame on those for doing this to our wonderful breed. :-(  :-(

What a pity she wasn't at the Alsatian(sorry I cannot call the animals there GSDs) Show in November. Dogs so frightened of everything that they could not stand up in the ring, so over angulated at the back that they they couldn't move more than once round the ring, so long on the loin & soft in the topline that the back bounced as they moved & of course they could not be gone over without being strung up on cheese wire chokers

Add to this the BPIS whilst being prepared for the ring(in the Obedience area I must add)flew at a young collie quietly walking past it into the ring to work in a run off. The collie's handler got a mouthful of abuse from the smartly dressed male Alsatian handler for "upsetting his puppy"

Perhaps this is the type of dog that should be heavily promoted to the public as being correct ? It is this club that objects to any attempt to enforce compulsory health testing, breed surveys & working tests(like the endurance test)every time all the other clubs propose it.

Good bit of editing yet again from PDE, failing to show any sound dogs & making it look like it is all one class.

I do not condone showing dogs that are not trained to walk, trot & gait without pulling on the lead, which is one of the problems with the show breeders/exhibitors, but I also do not condone the Alsatianists breeding from their unhealth tested dogs of dubious character & fitness levels.

One reason I prefer the working bred GSD from Germany

it is sad to see those poor german sheps like that i would rather see a nice staight back and strong legs

http://www.whispawillowkennels.com/images/german%20shepherd%20female%20Star%20-%20whispawillowkennels.jpg

found this pic i think this looks awful

would much rather see this

http://www.merlotschatz.com/images/german_shepherds_226_2eu4.jpg

I too now prefer the working lines MM, especially the German working lines, some beautiful dogs.

Alsatians aside; we all know they have their own huge bag of problems and comparing one set of problems in English lines to another set of problems in German lines does not make either side excusable.  And no one is saying that the Alsatian is correct, far from it. 

This is not about clever editing; this is not about pulling on the lead or a surface that the dogs are not used to walking on or looseness in ligaments due to lack of exercise or the dogs being veterans or the colour of grass, I've heard every excuse going, this is about a rolling pelvic movement with east west hocks and sagginess in the hind quarters and it's not just those 2 dogs either.  It is becoming more and more apparant and it cannot be good for the breed. 

German show lines have always been close to my heart.  I've been to the shows and saw it for myself in modern dogs.  :-( :-(

The sounder dogs in hind quarter movement were those in the veteran class and the judge on one occassion picked one out as an example of better hocks than most. 

I Think the way a GSD is stacked should be changed, they should be stacked square , then there would be no need to breed in the wonky legs just to get the dog to stack low at the back

>I Think the way a GSD is stacked should be changed, they should be stacked square , then there would be no need to breed in the wonky legs just to get the dog to stack low at the back

I don't think that would make much difference really; and I'm not convinced this is about the dog posing.  There appears to have been a swing toward creating a structure to increase forward hind leg reach which I think has contributed to extreme angulations and a saggy quarter movement in walk and stand.  Some say there has been a rotation of the pelvis to look good in side gait for the ring. 

The Germans produced some great dogs in the 80's; look how solid and straight this dog stands in the stance without that extreme angulation compared to today's showline.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/39.html

Now watch him in the gait

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0

Nothing was perfect even back then and of course, there have been improvements in some areas over the years, just not in the second half part of the dog unfortunately.  :-(

Having a moderately angulated breed I just can't get my head round that over reaching gait.

> I Think the way a GSD is stacked should be changed, they should be stacked square , then there would be no need to breed in the wonky legs just to get the dog to stack low at the back

The natural way for the GSD to stand is actually with one leg back & to be shown standing 4 square with a "straight"topline would lead to dogs being bred with a level topline, which in turn would lead to the dog gaiting head down bum up & having to be strung up like the Alsatians have to be. The topline is required to slope from withers to tail so that when the dog gaits it can do so with minimal effort. This is the gait required to allow the GSD to do it's job as a herding breed.

Do you have GSDs ? or another type of dog altogether ?

I never used to"stack"my GSDs, I simply trained them to walk into a natural stance. None of mine had loose ligaments as they were always allowed to free run as puppies & never showed them under a year old at GSD shows just as in Germany were puppies are rarely shown allowing the dogs to mature slowly rather than being rushing into the ring with an immature dog/bitch.

"Wonky legs" ??? do you mean the dogs look dysplasic

>German show lines have always been close to my heart

They haven't to me I have always preferred the working lines both Herding & Schutzhund & I think you will find that the SV has already has this in mind & is taking action in the future of the breed. Nothing we decide to do in the UK will alter this & if the KC take the Alsatian as their template for the breed(as their picture with the breed standard shows)then those who breed towards the SV dogs will simply leave the KC & use it simply for a registry base for setting up the equivalent of the SV here in the UK

I'm wondering about the overeach on him...yes nice flowing movement but the hind leg should reach to the midline of the body and this does show an overeach! I do realize he is fully extended but even so I think he is overeaching with his hind movement.
Head down under sofa now...for the flack!!
Aileen

When showing German Shepherds evolved into a gaiting contest, it was inevitable that extemes would take over.

'The flying trot' used in huge gaiting arenas by fit young men and women, running the 'shepherds' round and round at high speed for lap after lap, has taken over from  simple dog showing IMHO.
If you are breeding to win a running contest then the breed standard may not cover the anatomy required to produce such an animal.

I've just viewed the footage posted by spender and I have to say I am completely appalled. No matter how much GSD exhibitors try to dress it up and make excuses, this is WRONG. How long would one of those dogs last out in the fields herding sheep. That said, we get the dogs that the judges give us, and whilst judges contimue to award prizes to dogs like that, then people will continue to breed them.

> 'The flying trot' used in huge gaiting arenas by fit young men and women, running the 'shepherds' round and round at high speed for lap after lap, has taken over from  simple dog showing IMHO

The dogs do not gait at high speeds for lap after lap-have you ever been to the German Sieger show or a GSD show here in the UK ? 95 % of the "lap after lap"is done at the walking pace(at the Sieger the rest is done either at the "flying gait" on lead or off lead with the owners-many of whom are far from fit young man & women(just the opposite in fact))

Don't forget these dogs are in UK & as an entry atypical of the dogs seen at the Sieger & in other shows in Germany

>How long would one of those dogs last out in the fields herding sheep.

Until the work requirement is brought in before the dogs can be shown nothing will change

Look at the top winning short legged overweight Labradors could they even waddle to the where shoots are held, the hyped up OTT over coated long coupled short ribbed Bearded Collies could they really drive sheep, geese, cattle from Scotland to Smithfield Market in London ? the overly small heavy coated Border Collies could they really work sheep & cattle all day ? the Rough Collie with it's lack of good movement-could it really work in the mountains & hills in Scotland ? As 99% of Roughs are either CEA carriers/go rights or affected could they even see the sheep ? Could the flashy Fox Terriers still kill foxes the same way Patterdales can ? Could the Irish Wolfhound still hunt wolves with it's OCD, HD & other health issues ? The mini Shelties could they really herd the sheep in the Shetland Islands, I know that Shetland sheep are small, but Shelties the size of Pomeranians, ???? I could go on & on & on there are few breeds that are sound both in body & mind(Norwegian Elkhounds, Whippets come readily to mind) the rest, well over the years I have seen lots of breeds change from being sound physically & mentally to pretty eye catching total unsound & unfit for purpose animals a 100 miles from the dogs that existed even in the 1970s & 1980s

Why do people continually pick on the GSD How come every Tom, Dick & Harry is an expert, who remembers the "Good ole"days of the-allegedly straight backed perfectly sound dogs who lived into their late teens with perfect character & temperament & bodies ?  Strangely enough that isn't how I remember them, but then I've only had German GSDs for nearly all my life I should obviously have opted for the Alsatian type back in 1958

(quote-Do you have GSDs ? or another type of dog altogether ? )

no need to be rude.
I used to have GSDs many years ago. at the time they were my  favorite breed of dog,but so much change has gone on in the breed It would be hard to find dogs like the ones I had. I now have an Elkhound,

(quote-"Wonky legs" ??? do you mean the dogs look dysplasic )
yes they do. Some of the GSDs I have seen, walk in the same way as my old dog did at the end of her life.

The stack I am referring to is when the back legs are set right back with one stretched  out behind making the dog look unbalanced. Like this -
http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/Gold%20Med%20Show%20Win.jpg

>The stack I am referring to is when the back legs are set right back with one stretched  out behind making the dog look unbalanced. Like this -
>http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/Gold%20Med%20Show%20Win.jpg

They do that to make the back straight. ;-)

*ducks*

> have you ever been to the German Sieger show or a GSD show here in the UK ?

Yes indeed I have; and have the pleasure of knowing one of these 'fit young men' in tabard and shorts.

Do you feel that breeding a shepherd that needs to win a gaiting contest ( pick your speed)  is really the right way?

It's very difficult to get an accurate assessment of those dogs because of the way they're leaning against the lead in all directions - one has its front feet barely touching the floor. The second one is definitely lame in one back leg.

The dog you posted the link to is an American type GSD not seen except for one dog in the UK

The way your dog moved was no doubt because of DM & not loose ligaments.

How long ago did you have your GSD ? what lines was it from German which are being discussed here or English-(whose supporters prefer the Alsatian name BTW)

>Do you have GSDs ? or another type of dog altogether

How can that be rude it is simply a question you are very very defensive aren't you

Let me show you some lovely Alsatians which I think will be more to your taste

Bearing in mind the breed standard states
Correct ratio 10 to 9 or 8 and a half. Undersized dogs, stunted growth, high-legged dogs, those too heavy or too light in build, over-loaded fronts, too short overall appearance, any feature detracting from reach or endurance of gait, undesirable. Chest deep (45-48 per cent) of height at shoulder, not too broad, brisket long, well developed.

Try measuring the dogs on the site perfectly proportioned ?

My partner has always said he wants to have a GSD on side of my Leos...
I have watched an entry with him in Championship show and we were both shocked.
After that he said he definately does not want a dog that just looks unhealthy (and he is not a dog person as such and doesn't have huge knowledge of construction but even he sees the dog is build wrong). The dogs didn't seem to have much power at the back and were kind of tiptoeing around the ring.
His family has GSD in the eighties and he doesn't remember them to be like the specimens we saw in the ring.
I do not know if their dogs were the alsatian type as I know very little about the differences so can not tell as I have only seen few pictures of them sitting down.

the dog in the second clip seems to have a healthier way of moving and power but it does over reach so looks a bit funny to my eye too (but definately better than the ones I saw tiptoeing with no real power to the movement).

Moonmaiden, would you know where I could see a clip of the type of dogs you are taking about?
I would not mind having a GSD but it seems it will be difficult to find what we see as GSD as it definately is not the dogs I saw in the show ring.

Edited to add I have no experience of GSD or knowledge how they were or supposingly were, my picture of GSD is based on the dogs I saw around in Finland when I grew up and working bred GSD's my old Leo's breeder had and bred for working trials and some of her pups went for policeforces too (but they would be too much of a dog for us!).

> Do you feel that breeding a shepherd that needs to win a gaiting contest ( pick your speed)  is really the right way?

I've already stated I have always preferred the German working dogs & have only ever had dogs from such lines

If you have been to the Sieger you will be aware that gaiting is not all done at the fast pace, walking the dog shows up the fitness of the dog, far better that once up & down & once round individually & possibly once or twice round in a class before or after the individuals as all other breeds are shown. Also all the dogs have to pass the test of courage & hold a working qualification either in Schutzhund(now VPG) or herding(HGH), they also have to pass the AD endurance test(12 miles in 2 hours-hardly the "flying gait") as adults to show that they have the fitness level to work sheep/cattle

My GSDs were rescue dogs ,back in the late 80s early 90s. so I don't know what line they were from ?  They were striate back with very strong back legs, I took them to fun shows and would often pop over to the KC show to see the dogs there, They were so small and looked much weaker then my dogs. It put me off ever wanting to show a GSD in a KC show. Witch is why I changed breed when I decided to start showing.  The word Alsatian is French, and was used to disguise the breed when it first came to the UK as anything German was hated. So GSD is there true name.

Do you feel that the large proprortion of time spent on gaiting shepherds at modern shows is good for the modern day showing scene and the type of dog it encourages?
I mean gaiting, not just as a means to determine anatomy, fitness and type (which would take a fraction of the time), but rather the spectacle

Yours are the working type, from which I conclude moderate- in type and angulation. They could probably do a days work and are fit for purpose but could they out gait these running machines and would you want them to?

I agree with Brainless & tooolz here - this breed, in it's various forms, has become one which over reaches appallingly.  Of course there are GSDs bred which are much more correct and IMO something more like the international/working bred dog is what should be aimed for.  However until excessive rear angulation and the flashyness of the flying trot are severely penalised in this breed in it's various guises (which should start now with judges and all caring breeders)  rightly deserves concern and much work towards improvement.

Most dogs, regardless of breed, are destined for pet homes.  I know of no pet owners who could walk their GSD at a pace where the dog moved anything like it's seen to move in the show rings of today.  In some instances the hock joint is almost skimming the pavement when at a pace comfortable for the owner to walk on lead :(   The rear ends are, mainly, shocking and IMO - however unpopular with die hards of any camp - GSD devotees must somehow come together and put right the exaggerrations that have split the breed and done no side any favours meantime, especially not the dogs :(

> Moonmaiden, would you know where I could see a clip of the type of dogs you are taking about?
> I would not mind having a GSD but it seems it will be difficult to find what we see as GSD as it definately is not the dogs I saw in the show ring.

Working German GSDs are not shown in conformation competitions, they do have to undertake the Korung(breed survey)assessment against the breed standard which does include some gaiting but not very much as the dogs fitness has already been proved in the AD test

Have a look at these

1936 Schutzhund, 1943 KNPV, SDG 1973, Current day Schutzhund training in the UK part 1, part 2, part 3

WUSV 2007, WUSV 2008(too many clips to post individually)

WUSV World Champion 2008

> I've already stated I have always preferred the German working dogs & have only ever had dogs from such lines

But we weren't talking about you and your dogs MM, rather the ones in the clip and modern day show winners.

> The word Alsatian is French, and was used to disguise the breed when it first came to the UK as anything German was hated. So GSD is there true name.

Really ? I would never have known if you hadn't told me ;-) Fancy me owning a breed for over 50 years & not knowing that !! I always thought the correct name was Deutsche Schäferhunde as their governing body is the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde, I stand corrected

> But we weren't talking about you and your dogs MM, rather the ones in the clip and modern day show winners.

I was answering your question re breeding for gait If I prefer the Working GSD I obviously prefer a dog bred to work

> I prefer the Working GSD I obviously prefer a dog bred to work

Do you advocate two standards then?
If the moderate dog is bred to work  - what are these 'endurance', flying gait specialists for?

>> The word Alsatian is French, and was used to disguise the breed when it first came to the UK as anything German was hated. So GSD is there true name.

Actually the (current) correct KC name is "German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian)". Other languages will call it something different.

The correct name is still Deutsche Schäferhunde as it is a German Breed-something a lot of people forget

> Do you advocate two standards then

Nope just dogs bred to work QED don't need two standards, working bred GSDs have to pass the same Korung like all the other GSDs bred in Germany

Moonmaiden, from your posts it seems you are taking this tread as a personal attack on you. This thread is about the apouling  condition of some show bred GSDs. So if you don't breed or show dogs like this, then you have no reason to take offence.  I thought you would agree with the comments as you seem much in favour of the working type, as most of us are. And the end goal would be to get only working GSDs in the show ring, or pets that are healthy enough to be able to work .
Deutsche Schäferhunde , is just German shepherd, in German.

I prefer the second picture the first shows a crippled animal.

>Deutsche Schäferhunde , is just German shepherd, in German.

Er no it's the breed's correct title.

I'm really sick & tired of the members of this forum sledging GSDs when their own breeds are far from perfect, but hey everyone knows what a GSD should look like

"Straight"topline stood four square just like the dogs they all remember from their youth-only they weren't such perfect animals-they were cow hocked, dippy backed over long dogs just like the ones seen on the site I linked to earlier.

I am not condoning dogs with poor hind movement(the hocks are not loose BTW its the muscles & ligaments that are incorrect, but neither will I excuse people who show their equally unsound dogs of other breeds. I sometimes wonder if I am at another show when dogs are described as being "sound""free moving"when in reality they are far from it. The GSD needs to be able to get from A to B quickly when needed without having to resort to energy sapping galloping. Even the Border Collies in the show ring do not move correctly. neither breed should have a "daisy cutting" trot with their heads up in the air(the same goes for Beardies) I never see a sheep dog work sheep with it's head in the air like BCs, Beardies & Alsatians are shown. No wonder the handlers have to resort to string the poor s*ds up.

The problem with the show GSDs in the UK is they are not really trained other than to walk, trot & gait at the ned of the lead. they are not trained to walk on a loose lead for the individual assessment & most simply pull into the collar whilst gaiting at all speeds. If they all had to have basic obedience(as in BH)training they would be able to walk naturally both inside & outside of the ring.

Could any of the dogs owned by members actually do the job they were bred to by instinct ? I very much doubt it & many wouldn't be able to do it after training because they are not constructed & conditioned correctly. My BCs certainly can & do show natural herding instincts & so did my GSDs. Not running after the stock , but actually show working instinct.

Working GSDs do not belong in the show ring they belong doing what they are bred to do ie work !

>Deutsche Schäferhunde , is just German shepherd, in German.

You're right. Each country will translate foreign names to their own language, and it's unreasonable to expect otherwise. The correct name is what each kennel club puts on its registration documents.

Quote -Er no it's the breed's correct title. )

The original name was "Deutsche Schäferhund" and a direct translation is "German Shepherd Dog".

Quote -Could any of the dogs owned by members actually do the job they were bred to by instinct ? )

Yes mine can.

Hi MM,

please do not take adverse comments personally - you clearly have a true passion and very in depth knowledge of the GSD and know very well what is and is not desired for correct type, temperament and working ability.  That, as with many breeds and their followers, is of course not always the case and less desired traits and exagerrations creep in and manage to become the 'norm'.  I can't believe that someone so heavily involved as yourself in the correct type of the GSD is not at the very least dismayed at many of the specimens seen in the UK show rings - and not restricted to those of the 'Alsatianist' persuasion.

It's all too easy to develop a preference for visual characteristics but please bear in mind that even though this current thread relates specifically to one of the breeds which you feel most passionately about, tearing apart other breeds in general is simply more of the same - i.e. your personal interpretation of how breeds have, rightly or wrongly, developed.  Your comments may very well be shared by owners/breeders/exhibitors of the breeds you have brought into the debate but they are not the topic of discussion and in any event, multiple wrongs do not make a right.

None of us like our beloved breeds to be thought poorly of by anyone, even if the criticism is made by one deeply entrenched in the origins of these breeds.  Only if we collectively acknowledge that all breeds need to be maintained as fit for the purpose of which they were intended can we ensure that 5, 10, 20 or 50 years from now they are still recognisable for the breeds they should be - and not caricatures of what they once were.

I will get another GSD when my boxers go and it will be a German Shepherd.
At shows it's common to see middle to older aged couples showing Alsations and I think if you asked them, they would probably be doing so because they are scared witless of the modern shepherd.
The all remember when sheps were straight backed and bidable but what they have now is a long, low, over-boned, rough collie headed dog with a weak character.
The German sheps of the 70's and 80's were magnificent and many gave me goose-bumps when they moved, their stature was noble and their angulation was appropriate to their function and if these older couples could have sourced one of those dogs, I think they would have been thrilled.

My friend imported a brother and sister in the early 80's and although the female got CDex UDex and WDex the male was beset with joint problems. The female had good hips and was mated to a black working type male and this litter resulted in good operational police dogs.This was the type she was after and went on to produce good sound stock. Recently she bought in a bitch from a successful kennel and her parents have won well in Germany (in the showring). This bitch is full of working instincts but again spends much of her time too lame to work.

I suppose the only way to source a good working type GSD without exagerations will be to scour the rescues.

This discussion needn't be showring type German type versus Alsationist type show type - it can surely be about a shepherd that has it all, beauty, brains and ability without the need to be extreme in it's type.
And by the sound of it, like yours MM.

Crippled like this dog or this one or crippled like this one

or crippled ones like these dogs lovely straight backs & lots of bone

>I suppose the only way to source a good working type GSD without exagerations will be to scour the rescues.

Oh no you won't find one there I know the dogs that come in to rescue are far from the working type they are 99% pet bred beset with the temperament & health problems caused by not being health tested & bred for the pet market(ie non standard colour & coat)

My next GSD will be from here & yes they do work & yes there is a Border Collie on the dogs page(ISDS bred)

>The all remember when sheps were straight backed and bidable but what they have now is a long, low, over-boned, rough collie headed dog with a weak character.

>The German sheps of the 70's and 80's were magnificent and many gave me goose-bumps when they moved, their stature was noble and their angulation was appropriate to their function and if these older couples could have sourced one of those dogs, I think they would have been thrilled.

Were they really-funny I saw few such dogs in the show rings in the UK I was still actively showing/breeding/working GSDs during this time & there were few if any UK dogs that impressed me. The English dogs haven't changed in the past 50 years let alone the last 20

>Your comments may very well be shared by owners/breeders/exhibitors of the breeds you have brought into the debate but they are not the topic of discussion and in any event, multiple wrongs do not make a right.

Better start a new thread then. My last words on this one.

> Better start a new thread then

If it should please you - I'm sure JH will be thrilled :)

When did the roached back cow hocked fault become the norm ?   no top line should have a hump in it ?   i don't see it  in any breed standard anywhere.

> Were they really-funny I saw few such dogs in the show rings in the UK I was still actively showing/breeding/working GSDs during this time & there were few if any UK dogs that impressed me.

I'll put it down to your tetchy mood but where did I say the dogs I was most impressed with were of UK breeding? In fact all the shep people I knew were, at that time, heavily into importation and sending bitches out to be mated to SV dogs.
Open dog was often filled with these imports ( maybe even your Echo) and I personally thought they were fab....sorry :-( What do I know?

Just because I admired dogs in the UK, in the 70's and 80's doesn't mean they were alsatians.
Surely everything isn't black or white.

This is the type of dog I don't like to see in the ring . The top line is arching the back legs are week the overall picture is not how I want a GSD to look.
http://www.mittelwest.com/german%20shepherd%20dog%20pictures/bellabest.jpg

this dog is one I would like to see in the ring , nice back strong legs lovely looking dog

http://www.rwdc.org/images/Mar08Mike5.jpg

My old GSDs certainly could do the job they were bred for.  Mine did obedience agility wt and showing, so were happy to walk at any pace at my side.  They weren't exagerated in any way.  Both were middle of the road type sheps with both German and English lines to them.  Sadly neither are with me anymore and I certainly couldn't replace them.

> Crippled like this dog

You;ve just proven the point MM that GSDs were much better years ago :-) The first one you linked to 'Echo von krappfeld' when was he born? Was it in the 80s? Thats a decent looking dog, much like the GSDs I remember and nothing like the rest of the awful sloping backed ones linked to.

>this dog is one I would like to see in the ring , nice back strong legs lovely looking dog

http://www.rwdc.org/images/Mar08Mike5.jpg

Nice, very nice IMO

Liked the first two pictures, the third seemed too low on leg and the US ones just look so long and over angulated.

Those last ones look like dogs, but GSD?