Frightening isn't it. I salutary reminder of the possible scale of this problem.
A veritable 'tip of the iceberg'.

I sincerely hope Jemima reads this. Does anyone have her email addy to pass on the link?

Unfortunately not.
I do believe all boards are patrolled for 'snippets'  - so it will be seen but unlikely to be commented upon.

I can hardly believe this thread.  Firstly, you admit you are aware of the health problems of a cavalier through a tv programme and yet knowingly breed without health testing you bitch or ensuring the stud dog is also tested.  On the one hand you will put her through the not inconsiderable risk of preganancy and high risk of producing unhealthy puppies, on the other, your own misplaced sentimentality will not allow you to use the 'morning after' jab. 

I would like to think that this litter (?) had been well thought out as all should be...but I feel perhaps it is just another case of a way to make a few bob. The Op has said she had no intention of keeping a pup and is obviously not following the breed recomendations so I feel all our advice will be ignored. If you have any compasion at all you should follow the advice given. Terminating the litter will be the only way to ensure you do not produce a pup who will spend it's short life in pain. Maybe you will be lucky and this will not happen but...can your contience live with the possibility, I know mine couldn't.
Think long and hard before you put your human feelings above those of a puppy. The pup cannot make any choices but you can!!
Aileen

> it made it clear that there was a woman on it that had her stud tested and he had SM and he was still producing litters yes and when questioned she lied about it on camera, only that they had the proof.

Hm the dog is/was asymptomatic which was NOT made clear by the program. One of my dogs with SM is also asymptomatic, the other has had 3 30 second episodes in 8 1/2 years & both have clear hearts & eyes

> Loucon, all cavaliers need to be health tested before they're bred from. They're too important to gamble with.

& also should not be bred from until they are at least 30 months old & both have parents over 5 with clear hearts

If you t5ake a look on a cavalier site (www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/start.html) not sure how to do links.  These are mri scanned, I didn't look at the small print that says they aren't necessarily clear, I have had 2 people contact me with regard to them buying a pup which turns out that the parents have sm.  I know for a fact that there are 6 dogs on there that I can say for definate have SM.  Labrador ones have the results at the side if they are carriers etc.  So even with MRI scan people are still breeding these dogs so what is the difference.

You can all jump at Loucons post but originally turned to this forum for help and it has turned nasty ye4t again.

Linda

I don't think it has Got Nasty, but it would apear that the poster, even though she knows her breed needs health checks has not done them, and after asking for advice it seems she is going to do her own thing anyway...why ask for advice...then ignore it?

I have read this thread with utter disbelief. What started and appeared as a genuine question has turned into a can of worms. The op, by ignoring the fact that her dog has had no health testing and neither has the stud dog (which beggars belief imho) and states she does not intend keeping a puppy is blatantly doing this for the money. I can see no other reason. I don't think it has turned nasty...I just think that everyone is wasting their time giving their valuable opinions, and how nice to see all singing from the same hymn sheet. This poster like so many will ignore all the advice and potentially have this litter, sell puppies to the unsuspecting public and probably sleep at night as she blatantly has no conscience.

> So even with MRI scan people are still breeding these dogs so what is the difference

Excuse me my Loukar is on that list & he most definitely NOT been bred from. Everyone knows the list is simply of dogs that HAVE been MRI'd not a list of clears. My new puppies father is on the list & he IS scanned normal-Rosirius Razzle Dazzle(please note his date of birth well over 30 months) as is his mother & both her parents & his mother(father died before he was scanned but he was heart clear at the time & had no SM symptoms & was an older dog when he died)

The website clearly says at the top of the page

The results of MRI scans are confidential to the Veterinary Surgeon and Owner. The names of the dogs & bitches on this list have therefore been supplied entirely voluntarily and no conclusion should be drawn from the inclusion or omission of any dog.

This list of MRI scanned dogs is provided for information only and The CKCS Club does not warrant any entry in the list. Information relating to the results of any scans can only be obtained from the owner of the listed dog.

Nowhere does it even suggest that the dogs are all clear on the web page

> I know for a fact that there are 6 dogs on there that I can say for definate have SM. 

Oh dear, I do hope that not too many people ask you for advice regarding the current protocol for breeding healthy Cavaliers.

I know for a fact that there are many more than 6 on there but that is a GOOD THING - we want to know what is going on inside the skull and neck of our cavs and this is the only way to know.
The fact that there are pass - fail and asymptomatic dogs on the list is excellent for the breed - a small gene pool will spell disaster for the breed with MVD increase being the possible outcome.
It has taken sometime to get many people to scan their dogs and many dont want to 'go public' with the results but at least they are now having them done.

Ignorance of the facts will be our down fall.

the original advice i asked for was if anyone knew if the slip mating with no tie could result in anything or would it have to be a full tie

thank you linda, as stated i did only orginally ask the question about the slip mating resulting in anything as i didnt know without a full tie and it has escalated to this

The answer to your question was "Yes it can". Under the circumstances (which only gradually came to light) the most sensible course of action would be to take the bitch to the vet for the Alizin injections before any potential whelps have implanted to prevent a possible pregnancy. That's no more an abortion than a woman using the coil as a contraceptive method.

> the original advice i asked for was if anyone knew if the slip mating with no tie could result in anything or would it have to be a full tie

Well the answer to that is it depends if the dog ejaculated, and you never know with a slip, with a tie you know he has.

i am not doing it for money and they wont be getting sold to the public i've already said that
i asked about a slip mating resulting in anyway - i asked for general advice and it all went on from there

Jemima Harrison, if you're reading this, here's the proof of how badly your programme served the CKCS.

tottally agree

> thank you linda, as stated i did only orginally ask the question about the slip mating

And now you've found one mis-informed person on your side you feel justified?
The fact that several highly experienced and well informed people disagree with your actions matters not a jot!!

I've always said most people looking for advice only take it when it coincides with their own.

Can I just ask a question of the op? You stated that you bred labradors who if bred ethically require hip/elbow/eye/gpra testing..which you say you had all done.  If this is true then please explain to someone finding it hard to swallow why you would do all that testing on one breed of dog but do zero on your new breed? You've obviously had plenty of time to research the health problems relating to cavy's so why would you not test? And why would you use an untested stud dog? It doesn't add up imho.

Could I just ask why you are breeding in the first place if it isn't for the money and isn't to keep a pup yourself?

I am not misinformed at all, The six I know of on that list have been bred from which is worse than not having them tested as these people know they have sm and continue to breed. The breeders in question have said there dogs have been tested for sm but do not admit they have to complaint one is now being taken to court.  Quite alot of people who want a pet don't necessaily always ask the right questions so are not fully aware.  I am not on anyones side, Again we can only advise on health testing cant make anyone do it, It would certainly be alot easier if the KC stipulated that all animals be tested for said conditions before they can be registered.

Linda

because it's hard work but very satisfing. i would of kept a pup but have just got another dog who is 16 weeks. when i bred my labs i did keep one of their pups

i am not denying that there is loads of highly experienced and informed people, what i was saying was thank you to linda who rightly said i turned to this forum for advice (on the subject of mating - no tie) the question was answered but then the went on to all this

To be honest it doesn't really matter who homes the pups; what matters is whether or not they're likely to suffer short lives of pain and discomfort which, given the high rate of hereditary conditions in the breed, if neither parent is tested is more likely than not to be the case. And that's unfair to the owners and even more unfair to the dogs themselves.

but as linda stated people test their dog and for example they know it has sm but still breed from it, it showed that being done on the tv programme. the woman just denied it

> I sincerely hope Jemima reads this. Does anyone have her email addy to pass on the link?

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeder/11604.html

And that's a wrong thing to do; even if it's asymptomatic (like yours could be) it could still pass the condition on to its offspring which could suffer (like yours could). There's really little difference between breeding from untested dogs and dogs that have been tested and failed. At least with the latter (with certain health issues) you can make sure that you only breed an affected to a clear and only get carriers. If you don't know then you're taking one heck of a gamble with the pups' welfare.

> when i bred my labs i did keep one of their pups

So you mated your dog to your bitch? Their pedigrees were compatible?

> i would of kept a pup but have just got another dog who is 16 weeks

So why did you mate her?

i have said in a previous correspondence that i was in talks with the stud dog owner and as of the other day gave up. at 11am this morning i went to my vet to weigh my pup and get a worming tab for her, i asked the receptionist for an appointment for the vet or at least someone maybe a nursing assistant that could help me with queries with a slip mating etc, so i have taken the first steps to offical enquires at least, i hope everyone feels like that is ok

no i had a bitch who i mated with a lab stud dog, very experienced dog handler and boarding kennel owner who knew what they were doing
when she had her pups i then kept one of them myself

> but as linda stated people test their dog

It would appear that Linda breeds non - Kennel Club registered  and mismarked puppies at a knock down price, you are being given free advice from experienced, ethical and successful  breeders who put health as their first priority...

So when Lindamorgan states "Again we can only advise on health testing cant make anyone do it, It would certainly be alot easier if the KC stipulated that all animals be tested for said conditions before they can be registered"
She will always have a get out clause with DL registry.

When it comes to taking advice..... take your pick.

> The six I know of on that list have been bred from which is worse than not having them tested as these people know they have sm and continue to breed

& you personally know that these dogs/bitches all have SM ?

> if the KC stipulated that all animals be tested for said conditions before they can be registered.

Really & do you think people will want to wait until their puppies are over a year old(& in some cases over 2-like BCs as the PRA test cannot be done until the dog/bitch is 2)for registration & who would pay for the testing ? the breeders ? the owners? This would mean costs over £200 for breeds that require hip & eye clinical testing & presumably you would thinkl the breeder should bear the cost ? What happens if the puppy hasn't been raised correctly by it's new owner & the hip score is too high ? does the owner who caused the problem get their money back for the puppy ? Or are you suggesting that the breeder runs on all their puppies until they can health test them ?

<<i asked the receptionist for an appointment for the vet or at least someone maybe a nursing assistant that could help me with queries with a slip mating etc>>

But you've had that query answered on here a number of times!

I know your original query was regarding slip matings, which you keep referring back to, but the situation regarding non-health-tested dogs being bred has taken over - quite rightly IMO. I just don't understand how you can feel justified in breeding from these 2 dogs, there appears to be absolutely no reason to do so and many reasons why you shouldn't.

Loucan, in reply to your question, yes it is possible to produce pups from slip matings.... My dog mated a bitch and both times they were slip matings (although I did hold them in position for 10-15 mins) and he did do the dancing on his back legs (usually a sign he is in the correct place) From those 2 matings there were 10 puppies produced (Dobermanns) So yes it is definately possible.

> The six I know of on that list have been bred from which is worse than not having them tested as these people know they have sm and continue to breed.

So, are you saying if a wrong has been done elsewhere the OPs wrong is going to add up to a right?

> no i had a bitch who i mated with a lab stud dog, very experienced dog handler and boarding kennel owner who knew what they were doing
> when she had her pups i then kept one of them myself

Is that in response to the health testing carried out on your labrador query.  Are you now saying you did not hip score and eye test? 

yes i did hip score and eye test my lab, no it was in response to someone saying did i mate my dog to bitch, i said i had the bitch and took her to a stud of a breeder and boarding kennel lab owner etc, they asked did the pedigrees be compatible, but they werent related or the pedigrees etc - sorry wrote this without going back and referring to what they asked me

> yes i did hip score and eye test my lab

So why would you not investigate what was required with your new breed? 

Loucon, I am glad you came here for advice.  you will feel so much better when your girl has had her health tests, book her in for them the next time you see the vet.  When the tests are done and found clear you can look for a good stud dog who has also been teased clear. And you can then enjoy happy healthy puppies.

thankyou vinya, i am going to talk to the vet about getting her tested now i have made the enquiry anyway to see either the vet or a nursing assistant etc with regards the slip mating, yes i came for advice and got some on the slip mating by excellent people, i also got more than i bargined for i think !!

But hopefully it was a learning curve for you? Start the way you mean to continue and do things the right way. If the forum has done that then you must admit it is a good thing. Sorry if you feel we have been getting at you but if it means better healthier pups then we are doing things the right way? And so will you, and you will be thought of much more by doing that!
Aileen

Yes it is good that Loucon has come on here for advice, but her bitch could well be pregnant now from the slip mating and she is adamant the pregnancy should go ahead if she is, from untested parents. She doesn't give any good reason for breeding this litter, doesn't want a pup herself, and seems reluctant to answer direct questions related to this. I just hope she does take the advice given on this board.