i have today been in talks with the stud dog owner, and my female doesnt seem ready anyway as she hasnt as of yet properly moved her tail to the side out the way. i explained all the views on this forum site etc and that in any case it did not under any circumstances want to force my dog into something that she is not ready to do.
the stud dog breeder was there and chatting asked how old her female was when she produced the litter with the stud dog pup in it. her female was 18months old first time bred and then again bred another year later
so as of today i am giving up, getting the tests done and will find someone experienced if i decide to go ahead at a later date, but my only thought at the back of my mind now is about when he must of hit the spot when she yelped on the 2 occassions

Only time will tell. But you must consider that if she is in pup you are bringing a litter into the world with no health checks done. Give this a lot of thought, and if she is in pup be sure to inform any prospective purchasers that No health checks were done. You need a lot more knowledge before you take the step again. The world is far too full of unthoughtout litters. It seems you have now done the right thing by stopping the prosses but it's just possible you may have done it too late. We have all made mistakes and hopefully you will have learned a lot from the wise folk on this site.
Fingers crossed she is not in whelp and you now have 6 months to think things through and do all your homework before you try again.
Well done for taking the right step.
Aileen

>so as of today i am giving up, getting the tests done and will find someone experienced if i decide to go ahead at a later date,

I think that's a very sensible decision. Fingers crossed now that nothing results from the mating attempts.

I think that's the best possible outcome for all concerned...read the articles given on the links given to you, do your homework and best of luck for later on!

[

ive been reading this post and i see both sides here but if im right here isnt it true that if the bitch is madian at time of AI will she then need to have a section or 99% more lightly to need 1????

:) :) :) me too

> I think that's a very sensible decision. Fingers crossed now that nothing results from the mating attempt

The bitch can be scanned at 28 - 30 days post the slip mating and if pregnant can have the Alizin injection to terminate pregnancy.

;-)

I've decided we all need to smile more...:-)

> i am not a breeder but i can see no reason to use AI if the dog is willing to mate and the bitch will take the dog why mess with nature

Money my dear, money :-(

The method of conception has nothing to do with the likely birth processs.

No its not true .AI does not increase the chances that the bitch will need a section

would you really do this, i wouldnt do it for myself as in human thing if disease etc were present as in the cavalier breed so god forbid she is in whelp from the slip mating i would not terminate the pups

Or not as has been decided! ;-) I give up and retreat in defeat!

> No its not true .AI does not increase the chances that the bitch will need a section

Not directly I'm sure but many breeds which routinely use this method, do so for a reason.
Anatomical anomalies are often the reason for this type of intervention. Some Bulldog and Bull Mastiff breeders use this method I believe. Both breeds which can suffer from low sex drive.

What comes first the chicken or the egg?

>would you really do this,

Oh yes, if there was any doubt as to the health of the puppies.

> i wouldnt do it for myself as in human thing if disease etc were present as in the cavalier breed so god forbid she is in whelp from the slip mating i would not terminate the pups

Unfortunately you will be passing this problem onto the potential owners of these pups, not just dealing with a personal moral dilemma.

but i wouldnt do it for myself if there was a doubt to the health of my baby, i can see that i would be passing the buck as i wouldnt be keeping the puppies, but i wouldnt have my dog injected to terminate - how horrible

and if i were to terminate the pups could all be fine ?

> would you really do this, i wouldnt do it for myself as in human thing if disease etc were present as in the cavalier breed so god forbid she is in whelp from the slip mating i would not terminate the pups

This is basically the morning after pill.  And yes many women terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason, or if tests prove a problem with the pregnancy.  In fact abortion i legal to 24 weeks, in dogs that would be about the same stage as the Alizin can be given to a bitch.

Dogs aren't people. Never make that mistake, or you'll have to leave your elderly dog suffer a long-drawn-out death at the end of her life, instead of a quick gentle passing before the pain and/or indignity gets too much for her to bear.

There are worse things than death, and never being born isn't the end of the world.

well i wouldnt terminate my own pregnancy so .......................

> i wouldnt have my dog injected to terminate - how horrible

I think to be honest, your personal disgust at this RESPONSIBLE thing to do is misplaced.  Personally, I couldn't live with the fact that I had sold on puppies that will potentially give years of heartache - could you?

But this isn't your pregnancy, unless you're going to keep every puppy that might result from this possible mating.

well i do know dogs arent people, come on give me some credit ! she is part of my family yes, but i wouldnt do it to myself,
worse things than death ???????

Amen to that!

keep within my extended family yes, i wont be selling them to potential owners etc and advertising them if she in whelp from the slip mating

>worse things than death ?????

A life of pain and ill-health, such as is suffered by too many cavaliers. :-(

Embryo whelps don't implant until about 21 days after conception, so the Alizin injection given at the end of her season (it can be given up to 45 days after mating) will prevent the embryos ever becoming viable. No more abortion than a human using the coil as a means of contraception.

amen to what ?

> ive been reading this post and i see both sides here but if im right here isnt it true that if the bitch is madian at time of AI will she then need to have a section or 99% more lightly to need 1????

I am not aware of any connection and I can't think of any reason why the first could lead to the second.  I wonder if there is some confusion arising from the fact that this is a procedure reputedly most used in a breed that also suffers from frequently requiring sections.  However, I would say the only connection is most likely that the two things are arising from the physical state that breed has got into.

> and if i were to terminate the pups could all be fine ?

I think you need to be made aware of what the public's perception of Cavaliers is like at the moment.
We live in a society which sues at a drop of a hat.
With all the publicity surrounding health issues affecting Cavs (which I'm astounded that you're unaware of ),buyers are either buying other breeds or searching out zealous health testing breeders.
Sales are stagnant and MRI testing breeders are being inundated by concerned buyers.
This is not the time to add another litter of untested Cavaliers to the buying public.
You may have had lots of well meaning folk saying they " would just love one of XXXX's puppies but few will either pay the going price nor be guaranteed not to sue if problems occur.
Sorry but that's the way it is.

But then, why would you want to risk puppies being born that MAY develop diseases that are quite horrendous, not only from your part, but from the point of view that people adopt these puppies for life, then have to watch the suffering!? I don't understand why you would want to do that? If it could be avoided? They are NOT humans and have no concept of a life that you have! Personally, I would never have an abortion either, nor would I assist in one when I was working in Theatres as a Nurse, but I would no more want to have to cope with a litter that MAY develop horrendous conditions than I would want to fly to the moon! Sometimes it's about doing the RIGHT thing, rather than a moral stance you want to take...that, unfortunately is what BREEDING is all about...it's not all fluffy wuffy puppies to play with!

Amen to JeanGenies very erudite reply...I think I replied to her post? Didn't I JG?? The worse than death scenario...

> well i wouldnt terminate my own pregnancy so .......................

Nobody is suggesting you should.  We are talking about a dog which has completely different ethics.

>Didn't I JG??

Yep! :-)

yes i am fully aware of all the health issues surrounding the cavaliers, and i think you would be blind and deaf as to not of seen or heard something about the kennel club programme or whatever it was on tv not so long ago and the cavvie being a major input in the programme

And yet you took an untested bitch to an untested dog.
What did you think?
Your dog was immune to these conditions?

yes i know it's not all fluffy puppies at the end of it and it's damn hard work as i used to breed labradors til i lost my lab, put me off dogs for 6 years til i got another doggie in the house

>i am fully aware of all the health issues surrounding the cavaliers, and i think you would be blind and deaf as to not of seen or heard something about the kennel club programme or whatever it was on tv not so long ago and the cavvie being a major input in the programme

So you were aware that cavaliers needed to be tested for eye and heart conditions and MRI scanned for SM before breeding ... did the programme not make it clear that this applies to all cavaliers, not just those being bred for show?

Did you have your Lab health tested? I'm sure you did...and if you had all that experience why would you want to contiue down a path laden with misgivings? Do you not think the very sensible advice given, by Breeders with years and years of knowledge about them, ALL agreeing(for a change!) on the RIGHT and PROPER course of action to take, should be taken, yet, you continue to argue your corner? Sometimes I'm afraid it's time to 'smell the coffee' Sorry...

yes i did have my lab tested with the correct hip eye etc test before breeding her

But that wasn't really the point of my post was it?? I said 'I'm sure you did'

it made it clear that there was a woman on it that had her stud tested and he had SM and he was still producing litters yes and when questioned she lied about it on camera, only that they had the proof.

yes i sure did have my lab tested, maybe i am missing the point of your point shall we say. i did have my lab tested and everything was good etc, have i missed something

> it made it clear that there was a woman on it that had her stud tested and he had SM and he was still producing litters yes and when questioned she lied about it on camera, only that they had the proof.

Was that not enough to make you think you wanted to ensure your bitch and the stud did not have this condition? 

Jemima Harrison, if you're reading this, here's the proof of how badly your programme served the CKCS.

Loucon, all cavaliers need to be health tested before they're bred from. They're too important to gamble with.

> yes i sure did have my lab tested, maybe i am missing the point of your point shall we say. i did have my lab tested and everything was good etc, have i missed something

Well to me, being aware of the importance of relevent health testing, if I was moving into another breed it would be logical to investigate what was required there.

I think the point is why did you not ensure the same this time with the stud dog and/or your Cav bitch.

>maybe i am missing the point of your point shall we say

Newfiedreams is saying that, as you knew that your lab needed health testing before you bred from her, why did you not think to do the same with your cavalier?

Ignorance is bliss - but no excuse in the eyes of the law I'm afraid.

Thank you JG, I must have me 'musty all full of dust head' on today as Wurzzle Gummage may say...Maybe I should stick to being a sarcastic so-and-so...it suits me much better!;-)