Have to agree, in that case you only need a willing and ready canine pair, discreet stud dog handler or bitch handler too.

In Paris' scenario you need dog, bitch handlers, laboratories, AI equipment, microscopes etc etc.

I'd rather not needlessly complicate what should be a relatively simple matter.

Well you will be happy to learn that I do not charge for my services

my thoughts too, even though the stud dog i went to was a first timer, but i'll let nature take it's course and if it happens it happens, if not i'll try again next season
humans have natural breeding, only in circumstances when they find out that there is defo something wrong, so my appraoce is try the natural doggie world first
here's hoping for a tie tomorrow !

That is nice to know, but surely it is better if your services are not needed at all.

> In Paris' scenario you need dog, bitch handlers, laboratories, AI equipment, microscopes etc etc.
> I'd rather not needlessly complicate what should be a simple matter.

I think most peoples natural inclination would be the same.  The worrying part is those that may feel driven to go this route are the owners of dogs for which conception is a problem and are thus increasing the potential for this level of interference perpetuating fertility issues.

The routine (unofficial and therefore fraudulent) use of AI is a major factor in getting the bulldog into its current crisis. That fact in itself is enough to send all reputable breeders running screaming from the prospect.

Best of luck I hope in that case none of your members will have need to start topics such as this one ,re "is my bitch in pups coz we have not had a proper mating".I was attempting to offer advice based on my own experience but obviously it is not welcome

> Well you will be happy to learn that I do not charge for my services

You are not actually a vet are you? :-)

>my bitch in pups coz we have not had a proper mating

And you think AI is 'a proper mating'?

The answer is maybe they will maybe they won't and that they should try for a mating with a tie next time.

Jeangenie

Most of the KC top breeders use AI .it is widespread in all breeds from Dalmations to Poms

> Most of the KC top breeders use AI .it is widespread in all breeds from Dalmations to Poms

Are you talking about within the circumstances that the KC permit?  I do not believe they are all paying for AI with a stud dog present.

>my appraoce is try the natural doggie world first

The most sensible approach. It could be that she's not quite 'on the boil' yet. My last litter was conceived from matings on days 18 and 20 of the bitch's season. She wasn't ready any earlier, so I'd always be guided by a bitch's behaviour, although two maidens isn't a great idea - it's best if at least one of them knows what's what.

>Most of the KC top breeders use AI .it is widespread in all breeds from Dalmations to Poms

I don't know about Poms, but dalmatians are renowned for being very capable and fertile, therefore AI would simply be unnecessary. I don't doubt that there is the occasional 'bad apple' in the breed (especially in the commercial set) but widespread? No.

Yes Isabel they are doing AI with the dog present

i know it's not the greatest start both being maidens but without being horrible, i'm in no rush to mate her if it happens it happens, and it's free, if not try again in 6 months maybe with an experienced stud dog

> Yes Isabel they are doing AI with the dog present

I fail to understand why.

If the dog is unable or sub fertile I would prefer he didn't pass these traits onto his offspring, thereby over generations necessitating more and more intervention.

That doesn't sound like breeding for the betterment of dogs as a line, breed or species.

Where is the evidence that it can be passed on to next the next generation.

> (especially in the commercial set)

The process could turn out to be very uncommercial!

Where is the evidence it can't be passed on to the next generation?

What are you on about show dog breeding has never as you put it been commercial

OP from my experience the dog will ejaculate after he does a little dance or tippy tappying with his back legs. This usually happens when a tie is taking place but if not i suppose you can do your best to keep it in there. The fluid on her hands may not have been semen and could have just been pre-ejaculatory fluid. I have had successful and unsuccesful matings being due to my lack of experience, i have now learnt not to interfere with the male too much and not to guide him or touch at all. If hes not hitting the spot i get push him off and then they start again, sometimes needing a break in between if he gets tired. Graphic - to make the target abit easier to hit, i open the vulva up a little using thumb and first finger (gloves) they dont always need it but it can help with an inexperienced dog. Keeping a good hold of the bitch as he will get rather dancy now and possibly proping her up from her tummy to make she doesnt crumble under his weight, i use my knee, but i have big dogs. hope this helps.

Louise

The fact that in many species including K9s it has been utilised sucessfully for the last 40 years.

> Where is the evidence that it can be passed on to next the next generation.

The evidence is there in humans, particularly on the female side.  I doubt there has been so much research in dogs but it seems likely that this would apply to other mammals and I would certainly wish to see strong evidence it was not the case before taking chances. 

> Where is the evidence that it can be passed on to next the next generation

The evidence is there to be seen in the behaviour of dogs and bitches inherited from their ancestors.  Anyone living with animals and knowing their quirks recognises this.

Bitches that are difficult often have daughters the same, and dogs with low libido have sons with the same traits.  Poor mothers pass on poor mothering characteristics to at least some of their daughters as those who have uterine inertia etc.

Paris, if you are not a vet are you a breeder?  Perhaps one of these breeds where these procedures are practiced?

yes tried the method of proping her up under her tummy etc, and i think when he got the spot right was the time when she yelped. your comment about not interfering seems right, as when we went close to him he sort of thought get lost i can do it on my own and backed off, when we were no way near him he then mounted and tried again. she yelped twice so presume he got inside if not close to her. I am new to this and am trying to collect as much info as possible etc, because if they dont tie tomorrow and by some miricle it happens then in 5/6 weeks i dont want to be in total shock and not prepared, i would like to gather all my stuff around me ready and waiting

8/9 weeks lol, i imagine it being uncomfortable for her as with our 'first time' but persevere. its good to be able to be near the stud as he need to perform with some kind of assistance (mostly touching the bitch) what breed is it are you allowed to say.

Louise

> These are things you want to know and there are sound reasons to make those sperm compete and fight their way up there. 
>

Natural selection, the way of mother nature.

To be honest she may simply not be ready to stand quite yet, and often a bitch will not hold a dog if it is too soon.

With maidens it is best to be very discreet and relaxed so as not to put them off.  You will need to be ready to get there quickly as many bitches dislike the tie and she could roll and hurt the dog while he is trying to turn.

yes sorry meant around 63 days. she is a cavailer king charles spaniel and only slight, but the stud is on her sort of size wise, so maybe you never know, if not hey i'll try again in 6 months maybe with an experienced stud who i know have proven

yes thanks, extra paranoid with both being maidens, but the lady helping is the breeder of the stud dog so she knows better than me !

yeh i would definately try opening her up a little, and being a small dog bit easier than mine which is a 3 man job! Good luck for tomorrow i know how frustrating it can be, make sure you dont let the dogs see this and take a breather and a cuppa yourself. Going in to it calmly after a break gives good results.

Louise

Can I ask how old the dog & bitch are ?

thanks, heres hoping for a tie tomorrow, and then see what the coming weeks bring ! Maybe nothing hey but never mind there is always next time

bitch is 29 months and dos is 24 months. does that make a difference, i wouldnt do it too young if that is the concern ???

The concern with this breed is whether they are old enough to have had the health tests vital to the breed.  I believe these at the very least are heart testing clear over the age of 2? and MRI scanning for SM.

> Perhaps if they had not allowed puppies from C sections to be registered

I totally agree.

> bitch is 29 months and dos is 24 months. does that make a difference, i wouldnt do it too young if that is the concern ???

You have unfortunately. Actually they are both too young. They should both be over 2 1/2 years of age at the time of mating & also both MRI scanned normal for Syringomyelia.as well as having current eye & heart certificates.

Have you bred Cavaliers before ? It doesn't sound as if you have IMHO. Who told you that the dog & bitch were the correct age to breed from ?

>i wouldnt do it too young if that is the concern ???

Information on age for breeding.

> Are you really suggesting that we are ok to use artificial methods to determine date to mate and semen viability but the actual process of sperm meets egg has to be the dog jumps on the bitch and produces a lock followed by ejaculation and if it doesnt happen this way we are procreating pups with a prepotent disability to mate a bitch themselves in the future <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif">

Maybe you would prefer one of these.

http://women.cs.cmu.edu/What/Outreach/EYH/robodog.jpg

no i have not bred cavaliers before but bred labradors, so totally different scernario
the breeder of the stud dog who produced that litter asked me if she had had her 3rd season and i said yes obviously because of her age

thankyou for the info it's usful reading
the stud dog owner actually has another cavalier who i believe to be about 16 months and is thinking of using but hasnt really mastered anything
although my bitch is 1 month short then of the 2 1/2yr recommendation i suppose the one month isnt as bad as the studs age or given that she is thinking of trying also a much younger dog in the any near future

>asked me if she had had her 3rd season and i said yes obviously because of her age

Did the stud dog owner also ask about all the necessary health tests, and show you evidence that the stud had passed them? If not I'd go elsewhere.

no never asked me any questions, showed me all the studs kc reg and all info on him etc but no health checks etc

I would abandon the attempt at breeding and hope who hasn't taken to the slip mating.

Then get all their health tests done.  As you didn't check if the dog had his does this mean you haven't had hers done.

Following recent very poor publicity regarding the breeding and health of pedigree dogs with conditions in this breed being highlighted anyone breeding without the health clearances who sells a puppy that develops a problem could find themselves in deep water and expense in the courts.

Sadly there are breeders and there are puppy producers and some shades of grey in between.

A 'breeder' worthy of the name (not just someone whose bitch has puppies), breeds for the betterment or maintenance of the breed.  This lovely breed sadly has some serious health issues which are exacerbated by the fact that it is a popular breed among the commercial element of puppy producers, who care not to or know not about health testing.

As has been pointed out the minimum tests would e an MRI scan for SM, be testing at over age two, and preferably that the parents of both bitch and stud are still murmur free at over 5 years of age (this is why the background study is so important as pups inherit more than just their parents genes), and be eye tested.

Hip scoring is rarely done, but judging by some of the poor scores achieved by some that have been this would be wise too.

I suggest joining the breed club, showing your bitch to get a true picture as to her worth for breeding and to see stud dogs and what they produce and hopefully find a reputable stud dog owner and mentor for the future.

Should your bitch not be the quality or health to be bred from this will stand you in good stead on the learning curve and hopefully one day when you have a bitch worthy of being bred from you can do so.

I agree with Brainless - abandon this mating because you don't have the vital (to avoid you possibly ending up with legal action against you if you sell any resulting puppies) evidence of health tests for the sire. I'm assuming, of course, that your bitch has had them all done - if not, now's the time to get them done to find out if you should even be breeding from her at all.

:-(  I meet so many people seemingly just like Loucon out on walks.......all eager to breed their purely pet Cavalier bitches and not having a clue what I am on about when I ask if they have done the health testing on their bitch. After a quick explanation of tests etc, the bitch owners without taking the slightest bit of notice, quite often ask if I would be willing to use Harvey to stud - I have been asked on quite a few occasions and its always Harvey, my ruby boy who folk ask over and never Alfie who is black and tan. Now as I don't show and have only owned Cavaliers for just over three years, I am definitely no expert on breed standard but I know enough to realise that Harvey is far from a perfect specimen (bless him). They soon disappear when I explain that both my boys are castrated..........I dare say that they just continue their search until they find a willing owner with a male, regardless of type  :-(

Brilliant post Barbara, you have summed up things exactly.

No wonder that Cavaliers are being bred with health problems when pet owners opt to breed from their untested dogs :-O

We have waited over 4 years to find a puppy from a good breeder, both parents MRI, eye & heart normal & whose G parents were all murmur free @ over 5(the stud dog is rising 6 & who has an"open"pedigree

Did you think because you don't show your Cavalier that the PDE program didn't have any bearing on your bitch ? I know other pet breeders have said this to me, despite their dogs being KC registered(the program as we know was aimed only at breeders who breed from KC registered dogs)as well as those who breed from unregistered dogs-who believe that it is only KC regiostered dogs that have health problems.

Did you do any research at all before mating your bitch ?

I quite agree, I've even had a"breeder"ask to use my boys because they have such lovely eyes as her bitches all have the whites of their eyes visible-told her re SM & my boys both being affected & she told me that it didn't matter !!!! :-O