I took my bitch to a stud dog today, my bitch is a maiden, the question i wanted to ask is, it is her 13th day as i took her on day 10 and she wasnt ready as kept her tail firmly in the way ! today was a little better and with the help of a woman that has breed before "something happened" but there was no tie. I am taking her back tomorrow, but wondered if anyone would say that it is still possible with no tie that she may produce pups bearing in mind that the same thing may happen tomorrow or they may actually tie tomorrow??

Yes, there is every possibility, the tie ensures that the sperm gets a chance to swim in the right direction with no leakage, without a tie there is still a chance albeit less, (I take it he was in for a sec and ejaculated) a few may still get to swim towards an egg or two.  :-)

Hi there, yes eventually hit the spot as at first was aiming too high with my bitch only being slight -  with the help of the woman he hit the spot as my bitch yelped and then the same thing happened and we think defo ejaculated as the poor woman helping had to go and wash her hands, after that he seemed less keen, although was still going back for a little try. we thought because he was less interested after that happened then he probably did perform something. taking her back tomorrow and see what happens and will take it from there but if it has worked, when would i expect to know/sort of realise that it has happened ??

With the benefit of a progesterone test to determine correct date to mate and AI you would not have encountered these problems.Its simple
1 Manually collect the semen from the dog.2 Analyse the resultant ejaculate to confirm that it is viable  3 Put the semen into the bitch via simple AI .Total time from start to finish 10 mins.But unfortunately the KC do not allow AI

>But unfortunately the KC do not allow AI

You mean 'fortunately'. Routine AI is bad news, and the KC is wise enough to recognise that.

>when would i expect to know/sort of realise that it has happened ??

She can be scanned in about 4 weeks time.

> With the benefit of a progesterone test to determine correct date to mate and AI you would not have encountered these problems.Its simple

This isn't allowed in the UK with UK resident dogs (except for
some specific exceptions), if the pups are to be Kennel club registered.

I agree JG I hear from contacts in the USA all to often of bitches being aggressive and unco-operative when being mated and dogs not performing etc, and am pretty sure this is partly due to dogs with poor natural behaviour passing these traits on by being bred from with artificial assistance.

experienced stud dog owners that have helped to mate my girl have held  the dog in for as long as possible if you cant get a tie .
for one of my matings we had a slip mating but that was with an older dog (in his prime) second mating with a young boy we had a good long mating but held in with no tie both produced good litters, I have recently mated my girl and had a half hour tie with a repeat mating.
If you had a matetel you would have more of an idea if she was ready.

Paris, if the dog is present why on earth would you want to use AI?  Have you no fears that these treatments that you recommend to overcome subfertility are going to be detrimental to dogs in the long term?

What are you saying that if a sire does not mate a bitch by a natural mating that the offspring can suffer adversly and that the sire is not able to pass on the same traits

Hi, the stud dog owner has given me it free of charge because he is also a virgin shall we say and if it works she can then say he has proved. but by the way he was acting on day 10 and today and we defo think he hit the spot then he knows what to do. the woman who was there to help is the breeder of the stud dog, it's her friend who bought him if that makes sense, and her own dog has produced 2 litters and she knows what to do and was quite helpful. Was just wondering if they dont tie like today would she still maybe produce a litter if he is up to the job

thanks for that, its a big help knowing well i'll be able to get an idea if she will produce so i can prepare

If he is also a "virgin" how do you know that he is producing viable semen.

well in a word i dont know he will produce viable semen, its a chance i take, and with it being his first time and my bitches first time there is no money involved for the "service" because as i say if she does go on to produce a litter the dog owner can say i suppose he has proved and can then advertise his services for a fee. thats why i was wondering at what time would i be able to tell if it has worked and then if not then no great shakes i can try the next season

> What are you saying that if a sire does not mate a bitch by a natural mating that the offspring can suffer adversly and that the sire is not able to pass on the same traits

We are saying that by not allowing natural mating you are not screening out dogs incapable of doing so.  You are also facilitating the fertility of dogs that may have low sperm counts and bitches that have abnormal cervical secretions that are hostile to sperm for example.  These are not things you would wish to pass on.
Are you a vet, Paris?  Surely you are aware of these things. Were you aware that the KC does not allow these procedures and do you advise your clients of this fact?

Yes that is exactly what we are doing with AI that is the whole point.So are you saying that sires with a low sperm count on the day of analysis should not be used as viable sires at all.As I am sure that you are aware sperm viability is influenced by a multitute of factors including external enviromnental factors,even down to the type of food and supplements fed to the stud dog .
I have come across very few dogs that are physically incapable of performing a natural mating.

> So are you saying that sires with a low sperm count on the day of analysis should not be used as viable sires at all

Yes I would say that because you have no way of determining that external factors are the cause with any individual.

> I have come across very few dogs that are physically incapable of performing a natural mating.

Perhaps because the KC have long disallowed interference and only natural mating characteristics have therefore been allowed to be passed on.

Are you advising clients regarding the KC not accepting their registration?

Ok I give in

If you are happy to mate a bitch on spec without knowing that she is on the best possible day and that you have no idea whether or not the sire is even fertile,but because she is flagging her tail and the sire would mount a pile of sand then no problem.All I am saying is that what is the problem with utilising the available methods to determine date to mate ie progesterone testing,pre mate testing etc and checking that the sire is fertile by drawing the dog and analysing the semen.If you think that AI does not go on within the KC then think again,many of your "Top KC show breeders " cannot afford for their bitch to miss. 

> What are you saying that if a sire does not mate a bitch by a natural mating that the offspring can suffer adversely and that the sire is not able to pass on the same traits

If dogs that are unable or unwilling to mate and reproduce naturally are bred form they may produce offspring with the same faulty behaviour/traits.

>If you are happy to mate a bitch on spec without knowing that she is on the best possible day and that you have no idea whether or not the sire is even fertile,but because she is flagging her tail and the sire would mount a pile of sand then no problem.

That has served breeders pretty well for a few centuries.

>All I am saying is that what is the problem with utilising the available methods to determine date to mate ie progesterone testing,pre mate testing etc and checking that the sire is fertile by drawing the dog and analysing the semen.

Nothing wrong with that.  It is the AI that presents the problem.

>If you think that AI does not go on within the KC then think again,many of your "Top KC show breeders " cannot afford for their bitch to miss. 

Then more fool them.  Not only risking the long term fertility of their line but also risking lying to the KC.  If my bitch missed, I would want to know will she miss again?  If she does I know there is a problem and I can set about determining if it is an environmental issue such as infection or a fertility one.  If it is a fertility one I would accept that and not wish to perpetuate it. 
Do you advise your clients regarding the KC rules?

Most bitches miss due to incorrect date of mating

As a quick example of external factors a good example is the simple use of glutosamine tablets which are routinely given in a dogs diet.This supplement  can render a stud dogs semen infertile for a good 6 months.

As it is quite clear that I am not welcome on this board,made clear by the admin and other well respected "advisors" on the subject of canine fertility this will be my last post on the subject.

> Most bitches miss due to incorrect date of mating

As I say, I have no issue with determining when ovulation is likely to occur.

> As a quick example of external factors a good example is the simple use of glutosamine tablets which are routinely given in a dogs diet.This supplement  can render a stud dogs semen infertile for a good 6 months.

Then the stud dog owner can be advised to discontinue use and repeat sperm analysis in 6 months.  How else are you going to exclude other posibilities?
Do you advise your clients of the implications of registering their litters?

> If you are happy to mate a bitch on spec without knowing that she is on the best possible day and that you have no idea whether or not the sire is even fertile,but because she is flagging her tail and the sire would mount a pile of sand then no problem

Point is good stud dogs have inherited the natural desire and ability to mate with a bitch when she is ready.

Certainly in my breed a stud dog will flirt with, but not mate with  bitch that isn't ready, once he has experience, and very usefully be found to be the best judge of the right time.

My current litter was sired by an almost 7 year old stud dog, who had not had a bitch for a while.

His owners were getting a bit concerned that after the first excitement of meeting the in season bitch he was not getting on with the business in hand. 

By day 16 they decided to get a premate test done, the result next day showed she was only just coming up to ovulation.  He mated her very happily on days 18 - 20.  He knew when the time was right.

With his next bitch they were happily able to take his word for it and not have the expense, not to mention stress, of taking blood and testing.

Also the very natural ladies were quite happy to stand once the time was right, telling the dog off when not ready (but not excessively so) and flirting when the time was getting near.

These are the kinds of traits we need to keep in our domestic dogs which have been denatured enough.  There are already breeds that cannot reproduce reliably without human/veterinary intervention, and this situation needs to be reversed, not exacerbated.

>what is the problem with utilising the available methods to determine date to mate ie progesterone testing,pre mate testing etc and checking that the sire is fertile by drawing the dog and analysing the semen.

Nothing at all. But for the species to remain viable you also need a dog and bitch that are willing and capable of natural mating, otherwise you risk infertility. So by all means test all you like, but then allow the dog and bitch to mate and tie as nature decreed as the best way to perpetuate the species.

> There are already breeds that cannot reproduce reliably without human/veterinary intervention

Am I being cynical in pointing out this creates an ever increasing, ever dependent client base?  I totally support the KCs rejection of these procedures.

But for the species to remain viable you also need a dog and bitch that are willing and capable of natural mating, otherwise you risk infertility.

Which is why the KC will not allow the daughter of a bitch that was impregnated with AI to use AI, she must have a natural mating.

Are you really suggesting that we are ok to use artificial methods to determine date to mate and semen viability but the actual process of sperm meets egg has to be the dog jumps on the bitch and produces a lock followed by ejaculation and if it doesnt happen this way we are procreating pups with a prepotent disability to mate a bitch themselves in the future

Yes, you are creating that posibility, not forgetting the posibility of masking subfertility in the female too, and this is the stance of the KC too.  Do you advise your clients of this?

Have you ever discussed these procedures you offer, both the AI and the hormone treatment for bitches with the KC, Paris?

No it is not the reason why the KC will not allow AI

Almost every dog  I have seen has the willingness and the ability to mate the bitch naturally.What I am saying is what is the problem with collecting the semen from the dog,analysing the semen and making sure that it has the viability and fertility needed to produce pups and if so immediately AI ing it into the waiting bitch.

Yes I have and they are open to discussion

> Almost every dog I have seen has the willingness and the ability to mate the bitch naturally.What I am saying is what is the problem with collecting the semen from the dog,analysing the semen and making sure that it has the viability and fertility needed to produce pups and if so immediately AI ing it into the waiting bitch.

I think we have already covered both of those points but we can do it again if you wish 1. We have a dog population that has a long history of natural mating so not wonder it is, at present, not common. 2. You could be masking subfertiliting in both the bitch and dog and may be breeding out natural mating instincts.
Why do you think the KC do not allow AI?

I give in

Why do the KC not like AI

> Yes I have and they are open to discussion

That's vague.  When are you going to have these discussions and when might we expect a ruling?

> Why do the KC not like AI

You are asking us?  We have told you.

But why do it.  These are all going to be expensive procedures, that will need the intervention of a fertility expert etc.  To be honest the cost and trouble is more than the possibility that the bitch misses.

If you want a specific dog mated to your bitch, whether he has high or low sperm count is immaterial, if he mates her there may or may not be enough to fertilise the eggs, and those eggs may or may not implant and go on to mature to viability at birth or beyond. 

Most of these processes are out of our control.

I am surprised that you have never met unwilling dogs or bitches.

I have also found courtship/mating behaviour to be very heritable with sons often being a lot like their fathers in the way they behave, and similar in the females.  Bad mothering is often inherited.

The KC dont like AI for the same reason which explains the reason they are now in deep kaka with the breed standards and health screening.They live in the dark ages.

Brainless are you serious with this post ?

I am expecting to be banned from this forum in the not to distant future

The furory over the standard of one particular breed that often requires assisted mating of one description or another is likely to reinforce the sense of their ruling and makes it very pertinent to present times.

> which explains the reason they are now in deep kaka with the breed standards and health screening.They live in the dark ages

The reason some see them as being in deep kaka is because those misinterpreting the standardsy have ignored nature and some breeders and judges have contributed to more and more unnatural or exaggerated characteristics to take hold, their stance on AI is in fact in their favour.

Perhaps if they had not allowed puppies from C sections to be registered or dogs that weren't allowed to tie in case their hearts gave out etc etc, the flack the breed standards (quite unjustifiably) get would not be the case.

> Brainless are you serious with this post

What do you think I am joking/not serious about?

Why would you want to allow Lady Luck to play any part in the mating process when you dont need to is a mystery to me.If it is clear that the dog is capable and willing to mate the bitch what is the problem with checking that the semen is a ok and then depositing it straight into the bitch.At least 1 you know that you have selected the optimum date to mate and 2 you know that the semen is great 3 via simple AI you can ensure that the semen is deposited as near to the cerivical oss as possible

is that what humans do 90 % of the time? so why not let the dog and bitch do what is natural rather than interfer ????

Yes you correct

I give up

I though this forum was Champdogs information exchange >

Maybe I'm a Romantic at heart.

I don't see the point in needlessly interfering with a natural process that has been designed to work for Millennia.

i am not a breeder but i can see no reason to use AI if the dog is willing to mate and the bitch will take the dog why mess with nature

Having checked for date and semen analysis why not just let them get on with it thus ensuring she has no fertility problems regarding abnormal secretions for example and he has all the natural ability to effect a mating?  These are things you want to know and there are sound reasons to make those sperm compete and fight their way up there. 
And save some money on a fee for an unecessary service :-D

>I though this forum was Champdogs information exchange

It is. We're exchanging information. Routine use of AI is not a sensible course of action if you have the interest of the species (and not money) at heart.