Yep, I know I am in the right place, which is why I am here. And I do appreciate all the invaluable advice given out on here. This website is a wealth of knowledge and it is the first place on the internet that  I come to when I want to know something.

I also do understand why people on here are wary of people who don't show. But I do intend to, when my children have grown up a bit more and I feel I have more time to devote to showing. That is the difference. I have no interest in churning out poor examples of the breed ( in terms of health, temperament or conformation) to the pet market ! In five years I have produced a grand total of three puppies and kept two of them !

Now, if by the time my children are older, I still haven't produced a bitch good enough for showing,  I will look into buying a bitch in. But for now I wish to continue to improve my line. I do, and will continue to seek the advice of those who know so much more about the breed than I.

But brainless who says I don't have my stock assessed ? I do.

But surely not anywhere near as much as those of us that show and get a different judge's opinion several times a month?

Not everyone who shows attends several shows a month either ! For goodness sake. Or do those who can only commit to attending occasional shows find themselves in your firing line too ? Stop nit picking please.
I admire your devotion to dogs but please save your time for someone who really does need to be homed in on.

> But I do intend to, when my children have grown up a bit more and I feel I have more time to devote to showing.

I don't understand why you would not leave breeding until you are in that position.   Even buying a pet puppy from a well established, reputable show breeder would give you more chance of lovely typical example than trying to breed your own from a pet that has not been evaluated by showing under a concensus of judges.  Time enough to start of line of your own when you are in a better position to.

> Not everyone who shows attends several shows a month either !

I find most of the people who show rather less have slowed down after years of experience and are in fact just being more selective over the judges that that experience has led them to. 

It's not like you have to do all champ.shows either. We do perhaps one champ.show every other month if you spread it out over the year (it will be uneven, the daft powers that be have decided that 3 of our shows with tickets this year falls within just 3 weeks of each other!!) -but there's plenty of open shows than you can enter for just a tenner or so for 2-3 dogs. Cheap as chips. :)

I rarely showed dogs when my kids were little but did a lot of cat shows then -became a dab hand at changing nappies at every possible show venue LOL. Cat shows are much worse though as you are not allowed to leave until 5 pm. Dog shows are rarely full days. At times with local shows we've been back home for 1 pm.

I Know for a fact my children (bar one) would not thank me for dragging them to dog shows every weekend. That is their time away from school (one is not even at school yet) and I don't think it would be fair. Knowing the children were fed up and bored would just spoil it for me anyway. I don't like motorway driving so there is no option to leave hubby at home minding them either !

Thanks for all the advice but you know I am happy breeding the occasional litter and I know I am doing my breed and dog breeding in general justice so to tell me to show first and then breed, however many years down the line that may be is not necessary. Our views differ, simple as that.

As for champ/open shows. Obviously when I do begin showing I will only attend open shows, to build my confidence up if nothing else.
One of my children does have an interest in dog shows and what we may do is if we get a nice enough bitch from our next  litter she may have a go at junior handling, which I think could be a lot of fun. But that doesn't change the fact that the other children may still get fed up lol.

> I am happy breeding the occasional litter and I know I am doing my breed and dog breeding in general justice

As long as you're having all the necessary health tests done (MRI scanning etc) then you'll be reasonably certain you're not doing the breed an injustice in the meantime.

To Isabel. Some people simply cannot attend shows every week due to work or home commitments - they are not all simply slowing down due to years and years of showing !

Plus, with the current economic climate spending vast amounts of money on petrol, entry fees etc etc on a weekly basis is simply not possible for everyone.

Jeangenie have you read any of my previous posts at all ?

I have lost count of how many times I have stated that for me HEALTH is my priority ! Strewth !!

Plus, with the current economic climate spending vast amounts of money on petrol, entry fees etc etc on a weekly basis is simply not possible for everyone.

It's MUCH more expensive to breed than to show though........

> To Isabel. Some people simply cannot attend shows every week due to work or home commitments - they are not all simply slowing down due to years and years of showing !
>

I am sure there are some that fit that category too but at least they are attended some. 

>Jeangenie have you read any of my previous posts at all ?
>I have lost count of how many times I have stated that for me HEALTH is my priority ! Strewth !!

Yes, of course I've read them. That's why I don't know what health tests your dogs (or the sires used) have had. Are you a member of any of the breed clubs?

There is absolutely no reason to go to shows every week. 

I try to keep it to one champ and one open show a month, or at most two champs when they are coming thick and fast close together in the summer, and two opens in the winter. 

Probably do about 20 shows a year.  That is plenty enough to get a broad spectrum of opinions over several seasons on your stock and also more importantly to get to see and compete against others and evaluate the stud dogs and their offspring.

Dog showing was my time away from the kids and stresses of home life,a nd in fact i FAR PREFERED LEAVING THEM WITH GRANPARENTS FOR THE DAY ONCE A MONTH, for the big shows.

All health tests done and I am a member of a breed club, yes.  Have been for several years actually. Well, it has been nice "chatting" on this thread - which incidently is now pretty much off topic so I am going to leave it there. I didn't know posting on here would end up with me feeling as if I were being interrogated LOL. I could understand it if I had come on and said something like : I breed several litters a year, have no interest in the health of my breed and so do not have any health checks done, I will never show because it doesn't interest me and my dogs live outside in a shed !!!!!!!!!  Please give me a break now.

Brainless your comments re numbers of shows attended seems far more reasonable for someone like me and certainly more realistic than thinking you should go to a show every single week.

Drat ! I said I would leave this thread alone ! Right I am definitely off !

>All health tests done and I am a member of a breed club, yes.

Excellent! The proprtion of cavs which are MRI scanned is very low, so you're to be applauded for being one of the few that have done it. Have you added your dogs' names to the published list? I know I would have done so that other people in my breed knew I was serious. :-)

> certainly more realistic than thinking you should go to a show every single week.
>

I don't think anyone said that just that some do.

> All health tests done

Does that include the MRI scan?  I am sure you will not mind me asking.  As you see from this thread other breeders are very open about the specific tests carried out particularly with the wringer that this breed has been put through.

I so didn't want to indulge your interrogations any further but that I will do.

I'll be honest. My girls are heart/eye tested clear. Foundation bitch was not MRI scanned no, but is not going to be bred again anyway and only had one litter.
Before I breed again my other girls WILL be MRI scanned. I have a stud dog lined up for one of them and he HAS already been scanned.
The scanning is not cheap as you know so it is something I have to save up for.

Back to showing - Funny isn't it ? You all advocate showing and yet there we had in all their glory a very successful exhibitor with their lovely cavalier (CH no less) having been diagnosed with SM still being campaigned in the ring and still (at the time) siring countless litters !!!!!!! I wonder just how many have learned their lesson since that unfortunate programme ? Rest assured that person was certainly not alone in caring more about show wins than health.  So, you see even show people aren't perfect. So please don't shoot me down because I have previously bred from an unscanned bitch, I am certainly not the only one. Now, I shan't be posting on this thread again.

Perhaps the thread should have been renamed : "Fire your questions at cavlover here ! Poke your nose into her breeding practices and comment as negatively as possible to her replies.Try and make her feel she is doing nothing right whatsoever ." LOL.

If anyone wants any further info about me,  you know, dress size, favourite colour etc. drop me a PM. Thank you.

> So, you see even show people aren't perfect.

No, they are not and nobody said showing was all you had to do anymore than healthy testing is all you have to do to be a responsible breeder.
This thread, which you chose to contribute to, is about breeding practices so it is hardly surprising that is what is being discussed.

Yes, Isabel breeding practices not cavlover's breeding practices ! LOL.

With all due respect it was you yourself that brought the subject of not showing up:
Interesting that people are suggesting you have to show your dog BEFORE breeding . I have always been advised (by show people) that no breeder will be keen to sell a show quality puppy (especially not a bitch) as they will will always want to keep the best for themselves. That certainly makes perfect sense to me.
so obviously we all pointed out this isn't the way most people/breeders do it and why we don't agree with it. If I had come on and said I don't believe in, say, hip scoring before breeding as an example, then we'd all be discussing my breeding practices instead. But I didn't -and I don't. :)

Hi cavlover

I've read through the posts and can understand to a degree why you feel agrieved, however (there's always one ;) ) while you are to be quite rightly commended for ensuring your litters are only bred from duly health tested parents (with of course, exemplary results of those tests), can I ask how you feel you are in any way contributing to the breed? 

If your pet bred litters don't enter the gene pool of those established, serious, successful and duly health conscious devotees of the breed who campaign them at Champ level to gain unbiased and professional appraisal of their breed type, then where will progeny produced by you be of use to progress the general health status of this sadly very over produced but charming little dog?

Teri :)

The lady who has bred my new puppy(still with mum)doesn't show, but has mentors who do & also does all the health tests possible & assisted by her mentors has chosen the stud dogs carefully, both for health & also being typical of the breed & of "showable"quality(the stud dogs has been shown successfully & his father was a Breed Champion & IMHO was a super little dog)

The puppies who look gorgeous are just a month old & I heard of the litter through the bitch's breeder(who does show)

We aren't interested in breed showing at this time, but might take him to a few local limited shows for a day out & a bit of fun. LOL at least he is a Ruby so wouldn't need the full pre treatment the Blenheims do.

Having been involved in showing Cavaliers for around 15 years now I know what I want to see in a Cavalier & Roodee certainly fits the bill at the moment-if he turns out to be super-I won't be campaigning him all over the place, might even venture into Obedience on a semi serious basis with him

Hi Teri,

who knows what the future holds ? Why shouldn't any of my future stock be both successful in the show ring and be healthy ?
Don't make assumptions just because I may have a few litters before I enter the big world that is dog showing. Who says none of my future stock won't succeed at Champ level ? I am in my thirties so I do believe I still have time to succeed - even if I boldly dare to put off showing for a few years. I certainly hope so anyway.

Moonmaidens post = proof that attending shows is not essential to produce quality puppies both in health and type. My mentor too successfully shows and is very hot on health too. She certainly sees no problems in the way I am doing things - but then again, she knows me doesn't she ? With due respect, you lot don't.

Incase anyone is interested, two of my girls are champion sired.

> who knows what the future holds ? Why shouldn't any of my future stock be both successful in the show ring and be healthy ?
>

I didn't say they shouldn't or couldn't - I queried what they would add to the gene pool because breeding stock is largely assessed by those best able to do so when the dogs and bitches are seen in the show ring.  The prettiest bitch or most handsome male may only be a 'flier' from it's litter - serious breeders want to know that a dog which fills their interpretation of the standard is typical through and through and carries the 'stamp' of it's ancestors.  To establish this one has to know the dogs behind it, determine the quality of the littermates and any progeny produced etc.

I would have no issues with using a pet owned dog at stud for example - but only if I knew it's relatives and ancestors inside out and it was the best in it's litter to suit my bitch.  I'd be unlikely to know of such a dog however if it's breeder did not already have some of it's siblings or one of it's parents in the show ring environment.  Hence why I queried how your stock would benefit the gene pool at large.

>She certainly sees no problems in the way I am doing things - but then again, she knows me doesn't she ? With due respect, you lot don't.

How rude to reply in those terms.  I asked you a perfectly reasonable question and worded it (IMO) in polite terms.  If you are unable or unwilling to look at the bigger picture relating to the many and varied responsibilities, practicalities and fundamental facts essential to ethical and forward thinking breeding then it appears the input of anyone but yourself is, to you, completely pointless.

Apologies if it sounded rude - not intentional. I think I have remained quite good natured inspite of everyone on here trying their very best to put me down and dampen my spirit.

I have a great interest in my dogs ancestors etc. Fascinating infact. No willy nilly breeding from me (no frequent breeding from me either, infact if I had my way, I'd only produce in a litter what I wanted for myself, thankfully my breed does not throw big litters though).
I am actually quite insulted by many of the replies which seriously imply those posters don't think I know a dogs tail from its nose. Why do people assume ignorance on my part ?
Not one genuine word of encouragement so far. Nevertheless, that won't be me off. There are seriously bad breeders out there some show, some don't. I am NOT one of them.

> Why do people assume ignorance on my part ?
>

I guess we just do not understand by which process you have acquired sufficient knowledge and understanding of both the breed and your own dogs without showing and the networking one acquires showing. 

thankfully my breed does not throw big litters though

My first Ruby bitch came from a litter of 8 so it can happen.

I am actually quite insulted by many of the replies which seriously imply those posters don't think I know a dogs tail from its nose. Why do people assume ignorance on my part ?

You've just said your dogs aren't MRI scanned, yet you keep saying you breed for health. How can you even plan anything before you have the scan results?

Ithink that if you have the good of the breed at heart and health check your dogs  but dont show them thats up to you , i know quite a few in  my breed that do the same  , showing is not the be all and end allbut it does show case quality dogs as a previous post said  but as long as you can improve the breed  and have pups that are healthy and long lived  and in happy pet homes , that in the end is paramount

Newfienook how can you improve a breed if the pups are in pet homes?

If scan results were not good I would not breed. Simple as that. Or do you actually think I am so stupid that I would pay out a lot of money to have my bitches scanned and then completely disregard the results if they were poor ?  What exactly would be the point in that ? Why would I scan in the first place ?

Right. I have had quite enough on this thread. Thanks so much to those of you who have pm'd me with kind words. But this really is my last post on the subject.  Sorry guys but you will have to go and find somebody else to pick on.

> it does show case quality dogs

I don't think that function of showing has been mentioned at all in this thread not in the sense of showing your dog off to other breeders, anyway. The references to showing have all been regarding the evaluation of your dogs and the learning and networking that takes place there.

> but as long as you can improve the breed

How can you confidently know you are achieving that without bothering to seek the opinion of a concensus of knowledgable people?  You may well manage to breed healthy dogs that live long lives but without the showing (or working) aspect how do you maintain a line that produces examples typical of the breed that people have paid you for?

> If scan results were not good I would not breed.

But you did.  If you have been going to shows and networking you would have known more about these issues and put your determination to breed healthy specimens to the fore.

> Not one genuine word of encouragement so far

I'm sorry if you feel that you can include my contribution in that.

I did go to some pains to advise you on,what I saw ,as a more sensible way of breeding top quality cavaliers.

" If I'd bought a fairly good one it wouldn't have stood out in classes of 25-35 but by buying very good ones from the start they did. I persuaded the breeders that I was serious about winning with their bitches and breeding for the betterment of the breed."
If you chose not to take the advice of someone who made many mistakes and is prepared to help others from making the same,then good luck.
Please have your breeding stock MRI scanned sooner rather than later because all this talk about your breeding plans may, in fact, be just pipe-dreams if the results are bad.

i mean breeding healthy stock , free from disease as far as it is possible to do .maybe improving was the wrong word , but doing no harm is better , not showing is a personal choice , breeding good healthy pups is a must , ok show/breeders breed when they want something to show and keep one back but what happens to the rest of the litter generally they go to pet homes , hopefully those dogs  live out theirlfes giving their owners pleasure and love .and getting the same back. after all thats what we all have our companions for   . we all have our thoughts on showing , i do show my dogs and enjoy every minute of it but its not for all .

Due to what I've seen AB's do and the number of litters many have a year, this is why I've never joined up to it.  It really needs to get stricter I feel.

I think the whole system needs overhauling...but who are we to comment! ;-)

All you so called big guns out for this one.Job well done with another loss?

What are you on about??? What have I done???

Morag, I asked you what I have done or said please for that reaction??