Fantastic - I'm so glad you have taken our advice, we are just looking out for your dog, her pups and you - at least you will know for sure now that your pups will be in good homes and won't be bred from.

> If I get an enquiry from a person who says that they want a bitch and plan to breed, then I never have anything suitable for them. ;-) 

out of interest westcoast (for when i eventually get a new dog) i presume a breeder would ask if i intend to breed- if the answer was "well, that depends on health, temprement, construction and how i and my dogs breeder feel i'm getting on with the breed, but if everything is great then maybe" would that be a good answer? (because for me its true)

When I got my first dal (from a very well-respected breeder/ exhibitor / judge who'd been 'in the breed' for over 40 years and bred very many champions, and exported puppies which became champions overseas) I said at the start that I was looking for a bitch with potential for showing and breeding. That way she knew that a mismark pet puppy would be unsuitable for me! I got a lovely bitch from her, who did reasonably well for me and her litter (using the sire advised by my mentor) produced some stunning puppies who did very well too. If I hadn't made it clear what sort of dog I was looking for that probably would never have happened.

> Can I ask, what people's ideas of a mentor would be? 

well... (please tell me if i'm being to demanding here- given how much trouble i'm having with our current boys breeding i'm going a bit hard core next time :))

i would expect a mentor to be very experienced in the specific breed and hopefully have an understanding of other similar breeds and a good understanding of dogs in general, ranging from physical things (common issues and suggested aids to treatment, full knowledge of health testing and a knowledge of genetics would be good), to psychological and training issues (in that i would like a good understanding of a range of techniques and behaviourist views so that their own opinion is well grounded)

i would expect them to be experienced and successful in the show world (or working if i was so inclined) and be involved in the breed so that they could introduce me to a wider circle of breeders/exhibitors and help me on the route to showing.

i'd also expect them to be more than happy to share their wider knowledge.

obviously i'd expect them to provide the healthiest, best socialised and hopefully (as best can be guessed) best show pup possible.

i'd expect them to be happy to be on speed dial :)

eventually (maybe) i'd expect them to assist me in the process of breeding, including a stud selection. hopefully for a first litter they would be happy enough to offer any additional support a puppy buyer might need that i couldn't give (or felt not fully ready to give)- no matter how experienced with a breed you are i think a first litter must be terrifying!

i'd also hope (by this stage) to have a good enough friendship with them that should i want a pup from another line for any reason (though if a breeder was this helpful and good probably not) they would give good advice on who to choose.

asking to much perhaps?

> I said at the start that I was looking for a bitch with potential for showing and breeding. That way she knew that a mismark pet puppy would be unsuitable for me!

yes, i think being absolutely clear in your intentions is the only way to get the pup and support you need/want

> it is not only what I was advised, it is also by far my own personal preference to try and breed my own show girl.

I wonder how successful anyone would be trying to breed a show dog if they've never shown! It takes a great deal of knowledge to know your own dogs faults, know what's behind your dog and the stud dog and to choose the best pup in the litter. I still think by far the best way to go about it is to buy a pup from a successful, well thought of breeder. Show that pup and learn about the breed. You may well be on your second or third bought in dog before you have anything good enough to breed from, but you'll have had lots of fun learning and enjoying your dogs.

Yes you are asking a lot! What do you think it is, your birthday or something? :-p

Hehe, joking by the way :-)

What you are asking for is the perfect mentor, a guiding hand.  Yes they have their own lives and commitments but I would think that as the owner of one of their pups that it sort of maybe counts as "doggy family" ;-)

> but I would think that as the owner of one of their pups that it sort of maybe counts as "doggy family" ;-)

lol, arrgh 24, the end is nigh!

that would be the relationship i hoped for, i know i'm asking for a lot and i might be willing to compromise a bit but i think that relationship between breeder and owner is best for everyone, especially the dog who gets top notch care :)

To Tigger2,

My mentor has done things exactly the same way as I am and is currently doing pretty well for herself actually - not bad going for a breed as competetive as ours.

That said, as long as I do my very best and hopefully produce some good examples of my breed then I will be very happy. I am breeding for me, no-one else. Winning at shows would be a bonus in the future - not winning will not be the end of the world, however.

Producing a line of long lived, heathly, true to type dogs - now that would mean the world to me and is something to really strive for. Focusing on health first is paramount.

I wonder how successful anyone would be trying to breed a show dog if they've never shown! It takes a great deal of knowledge to know your own dogs faults, know what's behind your dog and the stud dog and to choose the best pup in the litter.

Yes I agree. You can read the breed standard and also attend shows and watch what's in the ring and winning, but you still won't know until you have a judge's report of your own dog. Little things needs to be pointed out. Simple example: I never realised the correct eye colour of Malinois until I had had it pointed out to me by a judge (Teri as it happens LOL)-because a description in a standard can be interpreted differently. And if you don't have that, knowing your bitch's strengths and weaknesses, how can you pick a stud dog to compliment her?

Having said that, I will hold my hands up and admit I have a bitch that I am going to breed from despite her never being shown. This is because she has one fault that would make it pointless to show her. However she has other qualities and the fault isn't one that cannot be corrected by using the right stud for her. But because of this, I needed help and guidance from those far more experienced in that breed than me, to pick the right dog. Indeed she is being mated to a Champion. Also this bitch was sold to me FOR breeding so it was all discussed from day one. When her fault was already obvious. But this isn't anything I'd ever consider unless I had the right people behind me or I'd sooner or later end up with dogs that didn't resemble the breed standard at all. (Also I AM showing the breed, just not this bitch!) Like we see in lots of breeds in the working version of the breed -they can look like entirely different breeds depending on whether they have been bred for showing or working, as the working people are not interested in looks. Many breeds you can also tell just by looking at them if they've come from a pet breeder. Chocolate Labradors spring to mind here.

I can sort of see where you are coming from cavlover -especially in cavaliers, if you have heart clear and SM clear dogs, there's one breed where health might just have to come above ANYTHING else. And with somebody knowledgeable behind you, yes it could possibly work. But I don't agree it would be no fun showing a dog you HAVEN'T bred. I'd much rather learn and make all the mistakes on one without my kennel name on it, and how boring if I could only show dogs I've bred. In my main breed, there would only be 3 people showing in total if we all only showed dogs we'd bred ourselves. In many cases people will also look down on somebody who appears in a breed with a dog they've bred themselves, never having been seen in the ring with anything else before then.

Marianne, I am not saying it would be no fun showing a dog I hadn't bred, of course it would be, but not as rewarding (imo). As I said in another post, circumstances prevent me from showing at the moment anyway (or at least would make it very difficult), and I am happy to do things this way. I think it is often the case in the show world that newbies are looked down upon full stop - whether or not they have a dog of their own breeding on the end of the lead. I shan't let that worry me (well I will try not to). I should think when you start out showing you need a thick skin anyway. That means I have a few years to toughen up lol.
And yes, I have a mentor that is inspirational and also now a friend. She cares deeply about the breed as well as enjoying showing and breeding. I consider myself very lucky.

> I think it is often the case in the show world that newbies are looked down upon full stop - whether or not they have a dog of their own breeding on the end of the lead. I shan't let that worry me (well I will try not to).

I cant agree with you there Cavlover.
I bought in two smashing bitches from 2 different, well established -champion producing breeders and won with both of them in huge classes...yes they are Cavs, in fact one of them has a Reserve CC. I was a complete unknown.
The difference is, I believe, that I bred and showed another breed for many, many years and although this didn't get me a foot in the door....my experience of picking a puppy, knowing where to source that puppy and how to show it at the highest level and at it's best most certainly has. I have mated them to top flight dogs and their daughters are regularly beating big names week in week out.

If I'd bought a fairly good one it wouldn't have stood out in classes of 25-35 but by buying very good ones from the start they did. I persuaded the breeders that I was serious about winning with their bitches and breeding for the betterment of the breed.
Luckily it was true :-)

Ok why do you have to show, to breed a good dog ?  I read alot on here about breeding and get the impression that if a dog has not won in the showring it shouldn't be bred from.
I have a HPR breed and there are many a good dog out there working or in pet homes that are put together very well. I have had my breed for nearly 30 years and only breed a litter when i want one myself.
I have a friend who i go to shows with acouple of times a year just to help her out with the 2 dogs that are shown, the bitch is cracking but because her face doesn't fit she never gets a look in. The best one was an e-mail i had back from someone who had won a cc saying " yes it was great to win but i got the breeder to take him because he was such a state and she is well known" The dog was over weight and moved like a sack of spuds, this is why i gave up showing but my dogs are still of very good quality.

But toolz I am ultimately not ambitious regarding the show ring, it will be a fun hobby, winning everything in sight is not so important to me.  Breeding a healthy line of cavaliers is my biggest aim. I am in it for the long haul and am in no hurry to start having wins in the show ring, if and when it happens, great, but I am happy to build myself up to it, learning from others as I go along.
I can't help the way I feel, I just prefer to start from scratch and I made sure I had set up my affix for my first litter . I do believe with the help and guidance I am lucky enough to have in the breed from my mentor, I will get there in the end.

Frenzy, you make an excellent point !!! This is precisely why for me, showing is not the be all and end all. We all know how "facey" the show world is anyway.

> Breeding a healthy line of cavaliers is my biggest aim

Having  beautiful, typical and showy Cavaliers is not at odds with 'healthy' ...all my adult Cavs have clear eyes/hearts and MRI scans for SM.

Most people will 'get there in the end' but I can see no good reason for doing it the hard way - ie slowly breeding out the faults in a less than excellent bitch.
Everyone has there own ambitions I suppose, I just wanted both - Top Notch and Healthy.

We all know how "facey" the show world is anyway.
You didn't seem to register the fact that I was a no-one in Cavs .....yet won. Such a shame to start off with such a defeatist attitude and such a jaded view of dog shows and dog judges.

Because it is jaded and not only that if you aren't getting a fair crack of the whip it's the cost now !!! Blackpool i see, if you dont pre book the carpark, it's £10 on the day.
I think healthy, typical breed type well natured dogs that have loving homes are the number one thing.

As I've already said -just look at those dogs NOT bred for showing and you will see how they soon start to differ.  Take the working version of many breeds, a few as examples: Malinois, Cocker, English Setters, Labradors, Goldens -they all look really different to the show bred dogs and in the Cocker's case you'd be forgiven for thinking they were two different breeds. Or the pet bred dogs that can be seen out and about anywhere -Chocolate Labradors,  Cavaliers, Goldens, Staffies etc etc -if not bred for the looks at all, eventually they DO change. Continue for long enough and the breed will be lost altogether as a breed. A breed isn't just health, temperament and abilities, it's looks AS WELL. The whole package. Not pick and mix. Otherwise we might as well have one breed called the Toy, one called the Pastoral, one called the Retrieving Gundog, one the Pointing gundog etc etc. This isn't speculation it's fact as it already happens in most breeds.

I lost count of the number of people I met when I used to have 4 Cavaliers and met other Cavalier owners with oversized, leggy, longfaced dogs, and they looked at mine and said with envy "That's the look I had expected of mine." Pet buyers pick a breed on looks as well as temperament and expect their pup to  grow up to look like the breed.

I think you mean conformation not contruction?? ;-)

Blackpool i see, if you dont pre book the carpark, it's £10 on the day.

So why is it so hard to pay the £3 for car parking at the same time as you pay the entries? Why leave it until the show day? They've done it (car park charge instead of charging the public to get in) for a reason after all; to allow the legally docked dogs to still be shown without losing money. I don't see a problem.

I think I know what a nicely bred cavalier looks like. Health, I said is priority - I didn't say conformation etc was of no importance to me did I ? It is, believe me.  If I thought I'd only ever produce healthy but ugly cavaliers lol I wouldn't be bothering at all !
One thing I won't be doing either is breeding too small .... you do see some tiny cavs in the ring and my foundation bitch is on the small, dainty size, but she has produced pups with better bone and for me that is the way to go .
Anyway, I am not here to argue with anyone, I am merely stating how I intend to do things - we are all entitled to have a different approach to breeding and showing so long as our dogs are well cared for and loved and that we are true to the breed.

To toolz - I did note that you said you did well and were a "nobody" at the time.  Dog showing is facey generally speaking, there is no denying it. That doesn't mean all judges are facey though, which is why it is not uncommon for exhibitors to decide whether or not to attend a show depending on who is judging.

>I think I know what a nicely bred cavalier looks like.

About 10% of dogs - even 'nicely bred' ones - are good enough in genotype and phenotype to be worth breeding from. Just because a dog has a 'good' pedigree it doesn't mean it's inherited only 'good' genes.

>That doesn't mean all judges are facey though, which is why it is not uncommon for exhibitors to decide whether or not to attend a show depending on who is judging.

Ithink you'll find that people decide not to show under a particular judge because they know that that judge doesn't like their type of dog, not that he/she doesn't like them!

> We all know how "facey" the show world is anyway.

Am I right in thinking that you haven't started to show yet?  I think you also said in an earlier post that 'newbies are looked down upon' - is this your experience?

I started showing a year ago and this hasn't been my experience at all.  I've received a lot of help, support and encouragement from people at ringcraft, in my own breed and others I've met at shows.  I can't recall anyone who has ever been less than civil even if, at most, it's just a smile and a greeting when passing.  I've made some great friends too.

It would be a shame to start a new hobby by thinking so negatively...

I think the "facey" judging comments are often used as an excuse. "No point in showing because judges are facey." "My dogs don't win because judges are facey." Maybe the faces win because their dogs are the best........?

>Maybe the faces win because their dogs are the best........?

And because they have the experience to know which are the most promising puppies in a litter and don't bother showing the also-rans. They've already made the mistakes that all beginners do - of thinking that their first 'show dog' is the next Crufts Best in Show!

> I have a friend who i go to shows with acouple of times a year just to help her out with the 2 dogs that are shown, the bitch is cracking but because her face doesn't fit she never gets a look in.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............

I know of people who say this about their own dogs and have people say it to them too & I have to bite my tongue becuase their dogs aren't that great, they are straight in shoulder (Its amazing how many people cannot fathom out correct shoulder construction in a gundog now), short in neck, slab sided etc.    Before I showed Mia, I was known in my breed but not to any great extent.   When I showed Mia because she was so good, she won despite me and got her title.  Ditto her aunt who I bred, bought by new showgoers who'd never shown before, she was BOB at Crufts 1997, and won another 5 CC's & 6 RCC's.  Likewise another bitch I sold on won her title last year.  Ok, owned by 'known' faces they might have won quicker but they still got there in the end because they were good.

> What do you think?

I don't think you can blame the Accredited Scheme.  People like the breeder Dawn has highlighted, who incidentally says her in web site she got the first gender pair early last year (that's fast! but in for a penny...) will be breeding anyway but at least she now has to conform to all the requirements of the scheme,.  It is also down to breeders themselves to have the ethical reasons to breed in the first place.  As you have also chosen to breed I don't see why you would now rubbish a scheme that at least obliges you reach a minimal standard somewhat higher than the puppy farms, which of course is the point of signing up before you start.

>> Maybe the faces win because their dogs are the best........?
> And because they have the experience to know which are the most promising puppies in a litter and don't bother showing the also-rans. They've already made the mistakes that all beginners do - of thinking that their first 'show dog' is the next Crufts Best in Show!

Quite.  The other think I don't get about the outsiders can't get a look in arguement is, why hasn't showing died out with no fresh faces?  How did the old faces get there?

I think I did well at Open Show level for a newbie, I was a junior handler also and qualified in one of the heats for scottish junior handler of the year, with a hugely competitive breed. In all I only showed my mum's dogs for 2 years. I would not agree that it is "facey".  And nepotism is in all areas of life unfortunately, you just have to get on with it!  It never put me off showing, as I was getting better I left home to go to Uni, basically I had to grow up. But I never once felt that my dog had been judged unfairly - they had faults and I only wanted the experience.  Placings were a bonus.  I don't stop doing something because I'm not good at it, I learn from it and strive to be better, to present my dog better, to present myself better - unfortunately not many people I have met have that ethos.

You doing a lot of Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm today hunni! Wanna give me a top winning Crufts qualified doggie???? ;-)

I wonder if it's anything to do with the 'I want it and I want it NOW' part of society?? It just seems to me that everyone wants to use their RIGHTS so much and so quickly, but are very slow to grasp onto their RESPONSIBILITES?? I just feel that as we are struggling so much financially as a Country, part of our problems are to do with that aspect of our socio-economic reasoning?? Have it all now and pay later. Don't want to save up or earn a reward? Have it now and pay for it in a couple of years? Everything has to be so immediate...where's all the no pain no gain gone to?? I think some of it is present in the Showing World, people go out and sometimes spend a lot of money on a dog and it seems that a) they want financial reward for that as soon as possible and b) they want title winning stock to boot! It's like Father Christmas, and I don't know how to tell you all this, but, he doesn't exist! My daughter used to say...in a very Kevin manner...it's SO UNFAIR! I answered, whoever told you life WAS fair? Sometimes it's a bitch and it bites you back! People forget that Breeders of good repute spend years trying to improve their breed, it doesn't happen overnight and there are a lot of blood sweat and tears throughout those years! Some people have learnt a hard lesson with that, not that I condemn them, I don't, but sometimes the truth will out...

> You doing a lot of Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm today hunni!

Its a 'word' that can cover my attitude after I read something!  ;-)

When I find myself a LM bitch I want to buy for Curtis, you're more than welcome to go on my list!!!!!

;-) ;-)

Newfiedreams - you've hit the nail on the head there I think.  That attitude is responsible for so many problems that have reared their heads at the moment.

> Well, obviously I was referring to my own (toy) breed where litters are usually small, so I would say it is very difficult to obtain a show quality bitch from a breeder/exhibitor. In any case,  it is not only what I was advised, it is also by far my own personal preference to try and breed my own show girl

Just because the breeder may keep the most promising one doesn't mean it will turn out the best and also that the others are not worth showing.  Except where markings play an important part I would expect most of a quality litter to be at least showable, even if not likely to go all the way.

My foundation bitch won her Stud book number but was not a world beater, she had a Champion litter brother and was typical with some lovely breed points but a bit long caste.  Certsainly wqorth of breeding from.

Very true Barbara, my last Newfie Storm, came out of an International Champion who won the Working Group at Crufts that year(2003) He's Multi Int CH 'And I'm Great to be Back' all bitches from that litter were show winning, all were shown, Breeder did keep the best one and she got her CC after just 4-5 shows, lovely bitch. I don't show Storm now due to my ill health, but she always won well and if we went to shows and met Indie there Storm always got a second place next to her first!! But just proves that sometimes good dogs do get sold by a Breeder, after all it is in their interest to get show winning names out there, if they are from their Breeding and they are pleased with it! I also know that I got pick pup with Sasha, she's gorgeous and I was very blessed to be trusted with the breeding lines! I would do nothing to upset my mentor and I hope and pray that she will be proud of me and the way I conduct myself and prove that I will be responsible for the legacy she's very kindly passed onto me!

> all bitches from that litter were show winning

Unfortunately Cavaliers dont often fall into this catagory. Litters of 2 and 3 are common, markings need to be good to compete in classes of 20 plus, construction, temperament good and .....yes and they need to be bitches. Consequently it is rare to see 2 sisters being shown.

Tell me about it...usually 280+ Newfies at Crufts, usually over 100 at Champ shows, very, very, very difficult to get a Newfie made up, or a stud book number unless you spend a fortune going to shows!

> I think healthy, typical breed type well natured dogs

To do this you need to know the dogs, not just your own dogs but the breed as a whole.  The place to see and compare breeders efforts is the showing and the working arena if appropriate.

Working the dogs alone and breeding from good workers does not help you breed dogs that look correct for their breed, it is a sad fact that many working dogs do not resemble the breed standard,a nd of course many that are bred only with show in mind have no working ability and perhaps the breed physically has been altered due to this so that it isn't made fit enough to work (excessive coat, weight and bone), though I am sure many of these with a bit of dieting would physically make it.

It is a pity that we do not in the UK have the Scandinavian system where a dog cannot become a Field champion unless it is also an Excellent graded specimen physically in the conformation ring and vice versa a dog had to prove working ability before it can gain a  show title.

out of interest westcoast (for when i eventually get a new dog) i presume a breeder would ask if i intend to breed- if the answer was "well, that depends on health, temprement, construction and how i and my dogs breeder feel i'm getting on with the breed, but if everything is great then maybe" would that be a good answer? (because for me its true)
Unless the person says otherwise, my pups are all sold as pets and their pedigrees are endorsed.  If the person wasn't prepared to join breed clubs, go to shows (which is where I feel that there is the most knowledge and experience) then no, I wouldn't sell to someone who said that they wanted to breed, regardless of the quality of the bitch and how well the owner thought that they were getting on with the breed.  I would also want the owner to have gained some experience of whelping before mating their bitch.  Although none of us know everything and each whelping teaches us something new, some of the basic questions that are asked by people with pregnant bitches makes me despair.  Would any of us be happy to have a baby with only our ignorant best friend with us rather than a trained midwife?  I wouldn't want one of my bitches put at risk in ignorant hands.

Well, obviously I was referring to my own (toy) breed where litters are usually small, so I would say it is very difficult to obtain a show quality bitch from a breeder/exhibitor.
I have sold pups to other exhibitors who have gone on to win CCs and ResCCs with them.  I also bought a 3 year old bitch for my 10 year old daughter and she won 4 CCs and a ResCC with her, so if the intention and dedication is there, breeders will sell good dogs to others.  In fact those who consistantly produce quality stock are only too pleased to find a serious exhibitor to show their pups.  My last litter was only one dog puppy and I only keep bitches.  Rather than sell him to an experienced exhibitor/breeder to live in a kennel, I chose to let him go to a person who has never been to a dog show but wanted to learn and develop a new hobby.  She's got a very nice puppy there! :)

We all know how "facey" the show world is anyway.
I used to think that too when I started showing 25 years ago.  When I look at the adverts that I put in the old handbooks now, I'm embarrassed - they were dreadful and didn't deserve to win.  But I didn't breed from them.

the bitch is cracking but because her face doesn't fit she never gets a look in.
You can't keep a good dog down!  If a novice has a good dog, presents and shows it well, it will eventually win.  It may take longer than an experienced exhibitor but a good dog will get there in the end.  If it never gets placed, then it isn't of a good enough standard.

Cavlover, if you have heart clear and SM clear bitches free from patella luxation then I'll take my hat off to you.  If you are breeding from anything less and are taking generations to produce a puppy good enough to do well for you in the showring, then you are producing substandard pets for others to live with when they should be entitled to have a healthy Cavalier that is a good representative of its breed too.

newfiedreams

> .usually 280+ Newfies at Crufts, usually over 100 at Champ shows

Difference is Cavs have 2 or 3 in a litter to chose from, the last 2 Newf litters I whelped for someone, were 13 and 14.

> Unless the person says otherwise, my pups are all sold as pets and their pedigrees are endorsed.

lol, i'd have made it plain i'd be looking to get involved with showing and woould hope for my breeder to be a good mentor to for that. to be honest i'd expect endorsments from breeders i would consider, i'd have some reservations about why there were not any if they didn't have them :)

> If the person wasn't prepared to join breed clubs, go to shows (which is where I feel that there is the most knowledge and experience) then no

lol, by health and construction i was implying an interest in showing which i think really needs to involve the breed club to get involved with fully.

> then no, I wouldn't sell to someone who said that they wanted to breed

it was a very big maybe for breeding, i think i'd emphasise that as for me its definately not the main point or even something that i would actively want to do, i don't think its even suitable to think of breeding a dog till they are an adult and can be properly assessed for the benefit they would bring to their breed. you can have hopes but they shouldn't be plans to breed. and certainly i wouldn't go near the idea without more experiance!

for me personally i found the litter i helped with exhausting physically and emotionally and its not an experience i am keen to repeat without good reason! don't get me wrong, it was wonderful and a great experience, but it was also heartbreaking (we lost 2) and such a titanic responsibility. unless i was really very determined and felt prepared knowledge wise (something i think can best be judged by knowledgable persons like a mentor, rather than by the individual owner) i wouldn't dare!

> some of the basic questions that are asked by people with pregnant bitches makes me despair.  Would any of us be happy to have a baby with only our ignorant best friend with us rather than a trained midwife?  I wouldn't want one of my bitches put at risk in ignorant hands.
>

true, its scary. i don't understand how people can be so blase about it, its the bitches life and health and new lives at stake.

Think you'll find 13 or 14 a lot! Usually 6-8! How come you've whelped 2 Newfie litters?? Just interested is all, don't get many Newfie breeders getting someone in to whelp a litter for them??

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as being so negative about showing. If I felt so negatively about it it is not something I would be planning for in the future. The point I am trying to make (but seemingly failing miserably lol) is that my priority and main interest is my breed, my line, not necessarily the showing of (yet).
As someone has mentioned, markings in certain breeds play a part in deciding whether or not a dog is considered show quality. This is so in my breed, so it is unlikely that more than one in a litter will be deemed show quality and so chances are the breeder will keep that bitch for themselves, and rightly so. There are large kennels out there who breed more frequently and do very well in the show world, who would be prepared to possibly part with a show potential bitch. But that would probably not be the sort of kennel I would want to buy a pup in from, I don't think.
In any case I am happy to try and produce a good quality bitch myself, it is my life lol so can't people just agree to disagree ? There might be an easier way of doing this (buying a bitch in) but I don't see that there is a right or wrong way. I always ensure stud dogs used are doing well in the ring, and compliment my bitches, surely that is a step in the right direction. I have no desire to produce healthly but ugly puppies !

In the meantime, comments on this thread have actually made me see showing in a more positive light.  Perhaps newbies are in with a chance after all (quality of handling and dog permitting of course !)

> In any case I am happy to try and produce a good quality bitch myself

The point others are making is that in order to produce quality you need to have your stock assessed and see other breeders efforts, what stud dogs and broods are producing to what lines, in order to produce and recognise quality.

In a non working breed that means showing.

When you see a representative entry you can not only judge your own dogs strengths and weaknesses but the direction the breed is going, are any faults becoming too prevalent etc.

But brainless who says I don't have my stock assessed ? I do. And can you not learn from attending shows, even if you don't have a dog good enough to enter yourself ?

>it is my life lol so can't people just agree to disagree ?

If it was just your life then there'd be no problem - but it isn't, is it? The lives of your bitch/es, puppies born and unborn, and their owners are all affected by your decisions. That's why people here take breeding so seriously!

'Kennel blindness' is very easily developed; it's important to have any breeding animals independently assessed (preferably by more than a single person), and to be honest showing and/or working (depending on the breed) is the easiest and best way to do this.

I actually don't think some people on here are reading what I am saying.  I take breeding VERY SERIOUSLY, I take the welfare of my breed VERY SERIOUSLY too, thank you jeangenie. Where you got the idea that I don't, God only knows ! Sometimes I think people on here see what they want to see. I breed very occasionally but don't (as yet) SHOW, so you want to believe I am a bad person who cares nothing about my breed, even though it is plain for all to see from my posts that I do !

Anyway, I feel as though I have hijacked this thread with show talk too much already and I am just having to repeat myself to try and make myself understood, but clearly failing.  Apologies to the OP.

>I take breeding VERY SERIOUSLY, I take the welfare of my breed VERY SERIOUSLY too, thank you jeangenie.

Then you're in the right place. :-) The person referred to in the original post is clearly (from reading the website - no mention of the breed-relevant health tests, for example) not taking it nearly seriously enough.