Me to and there monetary controls.

Actually (off the subject) but Border Collies should not have white as a predominant colour for herding sheep either? Any one know why?? Im curious.

> Border Collies should not have white as a predominant colour for herding sheep either? Any one know why?? Im curious.

dunno, maybe british sheep don't like white dogs either?

I was wondering if sheep would ignor the dog cause they think its a bolshi sheep??

i know sheep are meant to be thick but surely they can tell a dog is not a sheep- when it nips them for a start- i think people have misinterperated what has gone on- black and white collies occasionally come across stubborn and bolshy sheep and it goes on for a while whilst the dog stares the sheep out in a battle of wills- why is a white dog unable to do that? it has eyes doesnt it!? and if it has the ability in its herding then i see no reason why they cant herd.

Is it to do with herding sheep or just because border collies with more white on them are more likely to be deaf ?

> why is a white dog unable to do that? it has eyes doesnt it!? and if it has the ability in its herding then i see no reason why they cant herd.

but apparently white gsd's can't work german sheep, they don't work for them.

>> White shepherds also can and do herd sheep http://www.awsaclub.com/howtodo/herding.htm

But they are American sheep which are not seen in Germany

Your link doesn't work BTW I've corrected in the quote

> Is it to do with herding sheep or just because border collies with more white on them are more likely to be deaf ?

In a word yes, however there are white BCs that can & do work sheep but that is more on the inbred ability of the dog & the shepherd & they are usually patched dogs & hill sheep.

I, bizarely, studied sheep at Uni as part of my course and I never realised how many different types of sheep there were, not breeds but types, and how they all differed between countries.  They are fascinating, if somewhat silly, animals.  It truly does not surprise me that you need different types of dog for different types of sheep.

it is a FACT that white gsds do NOT suffer from deafness due to their coat colour- i know this is common in boxers and collies and numerous other breeds but white gsds do not suffer from deafness any more than their standard colour counterparts

who mentioned deafness in gsd's? they were talking about BC's

I didnt say anything about GSD's the thread had changed to BC's.  so please dont shout your FACTS at me.

> They are fascinating, if somewhat silly, animals.

LOL yes they are silly if have you ever read any of Henry Brewis' books they are so funny & so true?

I wrote

>In a word yes, however there are white BCs that can & do work sheep but that is more on the inbred ability of the dog & the shepherd & they are usually patched dogs & hill sheep

You replied

>it is a FACT that white gsds do NOT suffer from deafness due to their coat colour

Do try reading the words of the posts & not what you want to see in them

link to a page about BC colours including white.
http://www.mastamariner.com/border_collie_colours_page-02.html

yes and this is a page about white german shepherds- therefore talking about bc deafness is totally irrelevant- the discussion was to why white gsds apparently cant herd german sheep so why mention deafness when it isnt associated with gsds
p.s. i didnt mean to 'shout' just felt that it was being put accross that white gsds have a tendency for deafness-i know you didnt actually say that though!

> yes and this is a page about white german shepherds- therefore talking about bc deafness is totally irrelevant

the conversation progressed, its what they do. people can mention side topics as long as the thread doesn't completely wander off the point.

and the sheep thing was discussed earlier in the thread.

yes i know but i was just clarifying that any colour gsds dont have a tendency to suffer from deafness- as that is what it appeared to insinuate otherwise why mention the deafness thing

> If all GSD breeders decided that colour was not an issue and mixed the whites with the colours and the odd white puppy was produced, then fair enough.  But that's not going to happen, anytime soon anyhow.

It does still happen, but I agree, that occurence is dwindling, and will narrow the gene pool eventually.

> That was a long time ago Katt, things have moved on and we can only do the best for our breed based on what we have got to work with at this current time. 

I am playing devils advocate here, and yes, it was a long time ago, but my point is that breeding selectively for colour did happen for the creation of any of the breeds. Things have moved on, and there is a standard, but I just wanted to dispel the extreme statements made on here about white shepherds. I think I have made my own point, and I do agree with you that it is a bit of a blind alley to go down if whites born of diverse lines dwindle.

> I cannot see that it is best for the breed to have so many divisions and splits which only end up in bottlenecks, inbreeding depression and more health problems.

Sadly, this is happening in any case in standard lines where a particular dog/line is very popular. It would be hard to say where there is a bigger problem, in standard colours or whites just now.

I did state originally that the 'trend' for whites produced some horrendous white dogs, but that emanates 1) from the puppy farms 2) from the bloke next door mating his white dog to the one in the next street - all money motivated. I was defending those who do breed whites responsibly, and there are a few.

> The breed has enough probs as it is and the only way I personally can support breeding is when it is done to improve the breed as a whole.

You know that I agree with you Yvonne, but sometimes you have to wonder if this over control of breeding, especially of the German lines causes more problems than it solves, and if whites were naturally to appear and be used within the breed if they are a fine example, the diversity may have been more healthy. It isn't just JP we have to blame for the problems either, there was a fad in breeders some years ago for producing roach backed monstrosities, in the standard, which frankly were a travesty.  Some exaggerations in the standard still are in my view, but that's a whole different debate.

Thank you MM, never was good at links.

I think the point here is that a statement of 'fact' was put forward that White GSD's couldn't herd sheep, which I was pointing out to be inaccurate, not that it couldn't herd German sheep :)

I thought we Were taking about why coloured dogs were favoured over white in the herding world. My link had a bit about it at the bottom.

>But sometimes you have to wonder if this over control of breeding, especially of the German lines causes more problems than it solves, and if whites were naturally to appear and be used within the breed if they are a fine example, the diversity may have been more healthy.

Good point and one worth considering; maybe things need to be more relaxed, forget colour on all sides and concentrate on health, temperament and conformation.  Not many GSD's herd sheep these days and the more a breeder puts into the mix to select for, the harder it is to get a good dog.

>It isn't just JP we have to blame for the problems either, there was a fad in breeders some years ago for producing roach backed monstrosities, in the standard, which frankly were a travesty. 

Fad is still around but there are glimmers of change. Is it the breeders?, the judges?, maybe a combination of the whole GSD dog breeding culture?  We can't really lay a finger of blame at anyone's door.  If the judge feels that none of the dogs are up to scratch in the ring, can he just void the whole thing and if he did, how popular would he be and how often would he be asked to judge again? 

Think about it in another way too, if these roach backed dogs are winning in the ring, what will breeders do?  They will breed more roach backed dogs because these are the winning dogs and they must be the best example of the breed.  Keep going down that path for a few generations and we get even more roached backed dogs until someone, somewhere sees the light.

Its amazing what people do to feel accepted and part of a group.  And there is nothing worse than kennel blindness, which is a true enemy to the breed itself. 

Well said spender :)

> Good point and one worth considering; maybe things need to be more relaxed, forget colour on all sides and concentrate on health, temperament and conformation.  Not many GSD's herd sheep these days and the more a breeder puts into the mix to select for, the harder it is to get a good dog

Being in a breed where only one colour is acceptable in fact I find the opposite.

Without colour preferences to get in the way you concentrate on the whole dog.

My question was really why cant you have white borders, they are not considered to be a "good" thing in the breed standards. The other bit was tonge in cheek humor.
Having a border I was curious as to what was wrong with more white than colour! In the theme of the white GSD not being to  "good" breed standard either, I woundered if anyone knew why borders were considered that was as well.

I think its me that started to mis direct this page I am sorry.

> Having a border I was curious as to what was wrong with more white than colour!

My guess is it would be to make it easier for the shepherd to see where his dog is when close to sheep at some distance.

thought this mite help.

Quote from link -
It's interesting to note that the gene causing a predominantly white coat on a dog is linked to the gene that causes deafness, so it is not that unusual for a dog with mainly white markings to be born deaf, sometimes with other hereditary problems such as skin or digestive disorders.

This is probably why the coloured dogs are favoured over white

see link
http://www.bordercollierescue.org/breed_advice/Disability/Deaf/DeafPups.html