> ....the long run but how hard can it be to find 6-8 decent homes for puppies free to a good home.come on if vetted correctly i know there must be some people out there willing to take on a puppy without papers.
> what your all advising is cruel.

First you would have to find someone (the owners can't or won't be able to) to rear these puppies, every two hours feeding day and night and half may not make it. 

Who is going to do that work and then deal with the problem of lack of canine social skills the pups may have due to being hand reared?  Especially if the sire is of a fighting type.

Oh dear Sam, what an awful position to be put in. I know what I would suggest, the same as what our rescue's vet advises when the bitch is too young, too old, too ill etc to successfully raise the puppies, especially if the father is unknown.

Is it so terrible to spay the bitch & yes PTS the puppies ? To those of you who cry yes it is wrong & "inhumane"& claim to be animals lovers, sorry, but you are living in cloud cuckoo land & need to live in the real world of negligent litters(sorry there are no accidental litters, unplanned litters are the result of owner negligence)& mongrels.

This bitch is not in good condition or health, doesn't live with owners who are breeding savvy & who are basically ignorant pet owners with a serious problem of their own causing on their hands. You want this bitch to go to term & have the puppies & rear them, are you willing to do this & bear not only the cost, but all the work involved & to return the bitch to her legal owners after the litter ? You will not be able to spay the bitch without the owners consent & if she dies during or after the whelping, are you going to bear the death of the bitch(& the possible puppies)as your responsibility, just because you take the bitch in she has an owner(s)& they will actually own the puppies she might have not you so will have a legal say in where the puppies go.

You want to add to the growing population of possibly unhealthy mongrels in this country, that may or may not be healthy from birth onwards, because you love dogs ?

Sorry you are so naive, hasn't the bitch got a right to life ? Shouldn't that be the first concern & not the unborn puppies ? Are you wanting to play God & decide who should live ?

Sam, I'm sure in your heart you know what should be done for the welfare & health of the bitch, I'm sure you know what I would do/advise.

I would love to live in a world where every dog has a loving caring owner & a forever home for every puppy-sadly we don't

The one thing everyone can be CERTAIN of is that the pups will NOT suffer if they are put to sleep. The one thing NOBODY can be certain of is that they WON'T suffer if they are born.

If it turned out they were part PB, it would be illegal to sell or give them away.

Just been speeking to a vet nurse who works at the practice I use and she is certain that e would not cull the pups, they would have the dog signed over tothem and take it from their this is one of the things the blue cross will fund.  THEY WILL NOT GET HER BACK. Whatever happens it is going to be sad.

Linda

> Just been speeking to a vet nurse who works at the practice I use and she is certain that e would not cull the pups, they would have the dog signed over tothem and take it from their this is one of the things the blue cross will fund

They couldn't insist on this they have no legal grounds on which to do so & the vet is bound to give the bitch medical attention by the RCVS. My own vets have always done this even if they know there is little chance of being paid

> Sentimentality is no substitute for good sense and it is clear that the owners wont/cant cope with this situation, rescues are bursting at the seams and the bitch may lose her life over this.
> Surely all this leads to the good sense path that many are advising...if this makes certain members upset then they are only thinking of themselves and not the poor dog IMO.

I'd echo that. It's very easy to take the moral high ground and bleat about the 'poor little puppies' that didn't ask to be born, but quality of life is more important that quantity. 'Free to a good home' is a nonsense statement - a good home would expect to pay for a puppy.

>> Sentimentality is no substitute for good sense and it is clear that the owners wont/cant cope with this situation, rescues are bursting at the seams and the bitch may lose her life over this.
>> Surely all this leads to the good sense path that many are advising...if this makes certain members upset then they are only thinking of themselves and not the poor dog IMO.
> I'd echo that. It's very easy to take the moral high ground and bleat about the 'poor little puppies' that didn't ask to be born, but quality of life is more important that quantity. 'Free to a good home' is a nonsense statement - a good home would expect to pay for a puppy.

Totally agree ;)

Those who bleat about the 'poor puppies' would do well to examine their own motives, as would those who raise pups who have no hope of a good home.  It's all very well to feel you've done a wonderful thing giving the chance of a life, but that's no help to a pup living in rescue kennels, or a dog living where it isn't cared for properly, after all if the bitch had been cared for properly the situation wouldn't have arisen - and the likelyhood is that the situation will be repeated.

totally agree with you carrington
i do not agree with culling, but in todays climate
with rescue centres full and dogs being dumped
its probably  the only answer

I agree with all the sensible people here who are putting the dam's welfare above all else, and they are carrington, moonmaiden, dill, lincolnimp etc.  The owner of the dog doesn't sound like they can care for her, how on earth can they be expected to find loving RESPONSIBLE homes for the puppies if they are not being responsible owners themselves?  For the food of the poor innocent babies and their poor innocent mum, end their suffering now.

I agree - I thonk culling under spey is the only option here.

For those that suggest this is more cruel - imagine - IF the bulldog survives the c section - IF the pups survive and are viable and are found homes - what would happen if one of the new owners wished to return a pup at 4 months, 6 months etc either because they don't have the cash for the upkeep of the dog or that the dog has a questionable temperament??  Would you willingly take it back in to your own home??

IF this was my cousin:

1 give her a good pasting and ask her what on earth she is doing allowing her to roam around. And a lesson in dog science, breeding seasons etc etc.
2 get the friends PITX neutered or else report it etc
3 take the bitch on, help her whelp and rear puppies

Puppies no matter what anyone says are far far far easier to rehome than an adult dog, and if it was me yes i would take them back in 4,6 months time but the homes would be strictly vetted also, i know circumstances change but these things happen. Better than then being raised by rescue and passed from pillar to post eh.

I know she may struggle and may not even go full term, but if its not meant to happen and things go wrong then so be it. As with a rescue dog, get and rspca person to do a homecheck follow the same guidelines. How many pet overweight bitches have been caught and given birth easily, and owners come home to a good healthy litter on the couch? I know we are talking about a bulldog known for their difficulties in whelping, but if she isnt of very good breeding as sam says she is nothing to be proud of she might be of a more leggier type and manage ok, each circumstance is different AND the father IS NOT a bulldog so not massive heads to push out. Noone knows for sure if the pits the sire or even if the pits a pit, how many people say thier long legged staffy is one to look hard?? I know alot of rescues are full to the brim, but they are not puppies with problems. They are adult dogs some with issues some not.

I was at the kennels saturday and whilst i was there 3 people came to rehome dogs, Its difficult to sell puppies because noone can afford pedigree pup prices. Im sure alot of people would be ok in paying 150 for a pup, being fully vetted. There is a mongrel in the kennels i go to had a litter of puppies, people are calling everyday to come see the pups and by the time they have had their jabs they will be gone straight away WHY because they are puppies.

The dogs that are in the kennels that havent been rehomed because: Rottie bitch (cruelty case cannot be rehomed yet and is skinny, waiting for precedings to prosecute owners for neglect, if goes through ok will be up for adoption) she is a small rotty girl, needs training but is generally a nice dog. GSD dog came in with rottie so a case dog too- he is very snap happy and will snap at you if you put him in his place, quite dominant but learnt some manners after a walk and realised he in not the boss (but hes bitten not hard but still), Coco a mentally draining 7 month old girl extremely hyperactive, no training whatsoever and is very hard work- she is small but god i was tired after walking her, she will need alot of training before anyone could home her (but shes not going to get any so in kennels she will stay) 1 staff barks all the time, needs training. 1 EBT cross, quite scared and shows aggression when in kennels but hes not aggressive just scared. 1 Akita male, hes a big boy very intimidating but nice- he is reserved.

Puppies can be homed

> IF this was my cousin:
>
> 1 give her a good pasting and ask her what on earth she is doing allowing her to roam around. And a lesson in dog science, breeding seasons etc etc.
> 2 get the friends PITX neutered or else report it etc
> 3 take the bitch on, help her whelp and rear puppies

I hate to say this but you are being very naive. If the bitch dies having the puppies is this OK ? as long as the puppies(who are yet to be born)are alive & can be sold thats OK ?

What is it with people on here that would sacrifice a bitch for unborn puppies ? Would you do the same if the expectant animal was a human being ?

Sorry, but the bitch must come first, she has a right to her life & not to be sacrificed for the sake of unplanned, unwanted puppies.

There is another scenario of course, the bitch & the puppies all die(happened to a friend, through veterinary negligence) are you willing to take on that responsibility ?

I'm as much a soft touch were puppies are concerned, but I would never sacrifice a bitch for her puppies.

For each of the puppies sold, an older dog loses the chance of a home & also possibly it's life.

Are you offering to take back these puppies or take on the bitch & whelp her etc etc ? I don't think so & why should Sam ? They are not her responsibility & she should not be pressured by her family let alone posters on here to get involved physically with this bitch

> Puppies can be homed

Indeed, but dare I say it - these ones would probably stand a high chance of ending up in rescue later on in their life no matter how good you are at vetting.  It was mentioned earlier that those that are able to pay the price for a dog are more likely to have the dog for life.

Separately - If Sam's cousin's dog died as a result of this c-section, I hardly think that she would be consoled that the pups survived but are being handed over to the RSPCA/AN Other to be hand reared.  Despite her lack of responsibility, she appears to love the dog.  I think Sam's cousin knows what she has to do and it might be a very hard lesson learned.  Its an entirely desperate situation to get into.

I think some people on here are too "pink and fluffy". In the current climate those puppies are better off being aborted and the bitch being spayed.  If puppies are easier to re-home maybe if there werent so many around it would give older dogs a chance.

> IF this was my cousin:
>
> 1 give her a good pasting and ask her what on earth she is doing allowing her to roam around. And a lesson in dog science, breeding seasons etc etc.
> 2 get the friends PITX neutered or else report it etc
> 3 take the bitch on, help her whelp and rear puppies

This is NOT Sam's responsibility, she's responding to a request from her mother to give some advice.  Sam has her own dogs and her own job to manage, she is booked to cover each day of Crufts in a few weeks!  Sam lives in Devon whilst her cousin, who remember she hasn't had any contact with for 15 years, is in London.  This what Sam asked:

I am ata loss as to what to say to her (after my initial explosive rant)....do i look for someone to try and rear these possible pups? Do I suggest the vet culls them...would a london vet even do such a thing? They are in no position to have a litter at home or care for it....they are completely clueless about dog ownership, So really im fishing for ideas on what advise to give her....she is scared witless the dog will die (despite her unbelievable naievity they do actually love the dog!) 

The cousin has exposed her dog to this risk and she must be the one to make the hard choices and to take any action necessary.  Whatever decision she and her father make she will have the benefit of Sam's input and the advice of the dogs own vet (two very qualified people to give such advice and opinion).  Sam was canvassing opinion on here to check if her instincts are sound before offering further advice to the cousin and I think the cousin is lucky to have someone like her to talk to.

As for reporting this cousins' friends' supposed Pit X, why on earth should Sam feel obligated to do that?  She only has the information from someone she barely knows and who is incompetent enough to leave an in season bitch to roam the neighborhood and perhaps didn't even know what seasons are.  I'm not entirely sure this poor girl would recognise a Pit X if she tripped over it!

Of course puppies can be homed, but is sam's cousin able to home them responsibly?  The long term future must be thought of, and responsible breeders do this for pedigree and mongrel pups.  No responsible breeder only thinks about rehoming their pups in the shortterm, they want forever homes for their pups.  It's a huge responsibility!

With the risk of sounding like a broken record, if the pups are put to sleep we KNOW they will not suffer. They won't know a thing.

Yes and this case I think that is the kindest option.

[b AND the father IS NOT a bulldog so not massive heads to push out. ]

Sorry Louise but you have made me giggle, no-one can predict which parts of their parents they inherit, just sumizing that the sire is this pit x the pups could well have a bulldog head and small body.  Bulldogs are notorious for being unable to self whelp most need a c-section to deliver their pups safely, not to mention many find breathing hard and a natural whelping for these dogs causes strain on their organs which is why pups are generally delivered at a vets. For all these reasons and health issues to get a litter from a Bulldog this is why they are such a hefty price, the price tag is there for a good reason.

If you are thinking that this Bulldog could self whelp, think again apart form it's heart, breathing and probable need for a c-section an obese Bulldog can't even get around to licking it's own bottom, how on earth can it whelp pups? 

we're not all suggesting SAM takes responsibility for the bitch at all,well im not anyway.ive said it over and over i would take the puppies after the c section and hand raise them.i have a freind who knows bull dogs inside out and i know she will help me with this particluar breeds upbringing.
im sorry but these puppies DO NOT NEED TO BE PTS.
i do actually care about the dams wealfare and im sure if the vet had thought the pregnancy was causing the bitch too much strees wouldnt he have told the owners?would he/she not have advised already to stop the pregnancy?i would assume that they would have not allowed her to walk away with the pregnant bitch if her life was in danger and ask to perform a c section there and then..we are all making asumptions.no one knows really how the bitch will cope,no one knows how ANY bitch will cope with whelping!
anyway im not going to give up.

I remember watching a bulldog spay years ago when I did work experience at the vets, it was a normal size healthy bitch but was not straight forward at all as the vets found it difficult to get through to find her organs - imagine an overweight bulldog c-section, that would be a nightmare.

Hard one this, but I too am of the opinion that the best bet is to suggest the spay/cull route. Lets suppose the bitch whelped the litter fine. Then what..the owners work so pups and Mum left to fend for themselves, lack of socialization, cost of feeding litter and Mum, space to bring them up in, vet fees for incadentals, finding good forever homes, If she needed a C sect...more bills possibility of bitch/pups dying under anaesthetic, hand rearing litter. Taking back unwanted pups/adults at a later stage. Offering to take this litter on is very noble but impractical,  the owners (No offence Sam) may choose to take them back at any time (They will still belong to them) they may insist on unsuitable homes ie friends etc.. nothing the foster Mum could do to change that..would you be willing to let pups go to homes you felt were unsuitable? If you took them on, homed them and lets say in 6 months time one turned out to be aggressive? (Possible as parentage is half unkown and most probably Pit bull cross) and bite (or worse) a child could you take the come back...Jo public are fast to lay the blame on...The way it was reared! Your good reputation could be ruined and for just trying to help out. Are you really ready to take that risk?
No I think the answer is to cull...heartbreaking as it is I agree painless now is the best way forward.
My heart goes out to pups and Mum and to you as well Sam it's an awfull position to be put in.
Aileen

>> anyway im not going to give up.

Why do you want these puppies to be born ? Don't forget the bitch has an owner & you will have no legal say in where the puppies are going & sorry you do NOT have the welfare of the bitch foremost in your mind.

The vet has no legal in say in what the owners do or don't do with their bitch unless it was an obvious case of neglect & if the owner won't give the bitch up for adoption/into the care of the vet, then legal action would be required.

You will think our GSD rescue heartless & cruel, as any in whelp bitch that is handed over to us is either spayed & the puppies terminated if it is safe enough, or if the bitch in actually in the early stages of whelping then the puppies are PTS soon after by the vet & @ most one puppy if any raised. Why kill the unborn puppies or the neo natal puppies How heartless & evil is that you will be thinking. No both our rescue & the vet live in the real world & do not want to add further poorly bred unplanned possibly mongrel puppies, when all breed rescues are full to overflowing already

> if this makes certain members upset then they are only thinking of themselves and not the poor dog

well, i'm pretty sure this upsets all of us, BUT that doesn't change that the best thing for this bitch and the gentllest thing for these pups is probably to cull them- something i would rarely advocate.

hopefully the scare from this incident will knock some sense in these stupid owners

> 3 take the bitch on, help her whelp and rear puppies
>

admirable, but
1) how exactly are you going to get someone elses pit X neutered?
2) nice to have the money to raise someone elses no doubt expensive litter- i'm obviously not party to sams finances but there are few with that money to throw around
3) you say- "Puppies no matter what anyone says are far far far easier to rehome than an adult dog" yes easier but not easy.

good homes are not that easy to find- as i think you know yourself, didn't you have trouble with the home one of your pups went to?

> How many pet overweight bitches have been caught and given birth easily, and owners come home to a good healthy litter on the couch? I know we are talking about a bulldog known for their difficulties in whelping, but if she isnt of very good breeding as sam says she is nothing to be proud of she might be of a more leggier type and manage ok, each circumstance is different AND the father IS NOT a bulldog so not massive heads to push out

how do you know its not massive heads? she could have mated with anything when running free- on another thread you railed against a mastiff/bulldog mating. as the father or fathers are unknown we can't know what size pups are in there.

why is it less cruel to put the bitch through possibly deadly labour and pups through a life of chaos than to put some as yet not concious puppies to sleep?

> The dogs that are in the kennels that havent been rehomed because: Rottie bitch (cruelty case cannot be rehomed yet and is skinny, waiting for precedings to prosecute owners for neglect, if goes through ok will be up for adoption) she is a small rotty girl, needs training but is generally a nice dog. GSD dog came in with rottie so a case dog too- he is very snap happy and will snap at you if you put him in his place, quite dominant but learnt some manners after a walk and realised he in not the boss (but hes bitten not hard but still), Coco a mentally draining 7 month old girl extremely hyperactive, no training whatsoever and is very hard work- she is small but god i was tired after walking her, she will need alot of training before anyone could home her (but shes not going to get any so in kennels she will stay) 1 staff barks all the time, needs training. 1 EBT cross, quite scared and shows aggression when in kennels but hes not aggressive just scared. 1 Akita male, hes a big boy very intimidating but nice- he is reserved.
>

And who is to say these puppies will not become these cases in a few months or years.

Surely the above dogs here already deserve to be placed rather than add to their potential number.  That's without taking into account the health issues and costs of rearing the litter.

>You will think our GSD rescue heartless & cruel, as any in whelp bitch that is handed over to us is either spayed & the puppies terminated if it is safe enough, or if the bitch in actually in the early stages of whelping then the puppies are PTS soon after by the vet & @ most one puppy if any raised>

MoonMaiden I watch all these TV programmes where litters of pups are raised and wonder why they do it so no I at least don't think you heartless.

In the case of these pups being dead may not be the worst thing that could happen to them. And having them may be very hard on the poor bitch

>i would assume that they would have not allowed her to walk away with the pregnant bitch if her life was in danger

You would assume wrong; vets have no power to prevent someone leaving with their own dog. They can suggest and advise but they cannot force.

well yes i know that but who in the right mind after hearing from a concerned vet that your dogs life is in danger would walk away?
come on!i know i wouldnt.not in a miliion years.
this is just so upsetting.i wish i could do something.

>who in the right mind after hearing from a concerned vet that your dogs life is in danger would walk away?
>come on!i know i wouldnt.not in a miliion years.

But this isn't you - or me! You and I both know how to care for our dogs properly. These people don't, and dogs which aren't cared for properly suffer. Full stop. Do you really want a litter of puppies born to suffer? I don't. By never being born they'll never suffer - and their mother won't suffer the trauma of giving birth to them.

this is an extremely sad story but i think some people are getting carried away with the 'ill raise the puppies issue' doctors and vets always say ' present life before possible life' and this is so so true. the issue here surely is the bitchs welfare- she is present life and she MUST come first and as it seems that her best chances of survival are to undergo a c-section and then humanely pts the puppies then so be it- we cant be saviours to every life/possible life. The bitchs health should come first and foremost and peoples emotional feelings on here really are irrelevant when the bitchs life is in danger

And on that note and to save going round in circles I will close this topic.

I think Sam has probably got the gist of peoples feelings.